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Galactus should be high 1B

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Just because she is likely more powerful does not mean that she is an infinity^infinity times more powerful. It is just an unquantifiable amount.
 
Antvasima said:
Just because she is likely more powerful does not mean that she is an infinity^infinity times more powerful. It is just an unquantifiable amount.
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Hmmm why not? When Phoenix describes Dark Phoenix and White Phoenix here, at Dark Phoenix says that she and Jean can be Gods but as White Phoenix they can transcend the normal Marvel Universe. She is not likely more powerful.She is indeed more powerful. I would say far far more powerful.
 
Far, far more powerful is speculation, and transcending a universe is still just a Low 2-C feat.

Look, I am extremely busy and can't continue to waste time on this. If you have explicit proof for a High 1-B rating, feel free to show it, but if not, we have to use caution and common sense. In which case she has to stay where she is.
 
Hmm. It seems like she does not currently scale from the other universal cosmic entities, so it is possible that we should upgrade her from Low 2-C to "At least 2-C" instead.

In addition, should we rename the "Starving Galactus" 4-A key to "Hungry Galactus" instead?

I also changed Thor's statistics with the runes to "At least 2-C", as he ascended beyond Those Who Sit Above In Shadow, who are supposed to be far more powerful than Odin, but I can change it back if people disagree.
 
If you're asking if I can do the profile, then sure. If you're asking whether it should be done, then honestly I can't give a definite answer. Jean was supposed to have the full power of the Phoenix so it at least makes sense to me.
 
Okay. I will unlock the page then. Tell me here when you are done.
 
Actually can you unlock the Phoenix Force page too? Its durability doesn't match its AP like other abstracts, seems like a minor oversight that should be fixed.
 
By the way, here is the end of the Abraxas storyline, in which the Ultimate Nullifier apparently recreated Multi-Eternity:

[1]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to create a profile for the Nullifier that clarifies its variable power level?

We also need to decide where we should place the Infinity Gems. Should we scale them from defeating multiple "At least 2-C" entities?
 
Okay.

Would you be willing to handle it?

The complete gauntlet.
 
I would, but it would be behind a couple of other things I'm already trying to do regarding DC profiles, so it would probably be a few weeks before I do it.
 
Hmm, it is just one profile though, and I would appreciate if we could finish up the Marvel cosmic entities revision soon, but oh well.
 
Well, it would be easier for me to do soon if you can tell me exactly what the variable tier would say, that way I won't have to research all its appearances. Or were you just going for "High 1-B"?
 
Well, normally, including in its first Fantastic Four appearance, the original Infinity War story, and JLA/Avengers, it was only presented as being able to erase a single universe or timeline, as far as I remember, and this is apparently due to different degrees of focus and mental power of the wielders.

However, in the Abraxas storyline it was able to destroy and recreate Multi-Eternity itself, so a variable tier between Low 2-C and High 1-B is probably best.

You can find more references here, and then look them up at ***************:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Ultimate_Nullifier_(Weapon)
 
Okay. Thank you for the help. The Wikipedia page might have some additional references.
 
I looks good, although a few more references for its usual scale of universal power wouldn't hurt of course.

In conjunction, we should probably also upgrade Galactus with the Nullifier to High 1-B, and scale The Infinity Gauntlet from something else instead, such as overpowering all of the universal abstract entities at the same time, as Quasar definitely did not seem to have multiversal power when attempting to fire it, although checking up the Infinity War crossover for the reference, both in his own comicbook and the main series, would probably be useful.
 
I added one more timeline-level feat but other than that I couldn't find any universe stuff by a quick search. I think the current profile should be fine.

Regarding Quasar, I don't think the IG overpowered the UN. Quasar messed up, either from his own power or because Magus used the IG to mess with him, and erased himself. The IG didn't directly compete against the UN's erasure.
 
Okay. Thank you for the help. I think that you can create the page then.

I suppose that is a valid interpretation, although didn't the Magus mention that he redirected its power against the wielder afterwards?
 
Well, again, if we are going to figure out how to rescale The Infinity Gauntlet page, it might be useful to investigate the event.

The gems have been all over the place in terms of raw power recently. Kurt Busiek and Jonathan Hickman established that they only work within a single universe, and can be overpowered by Celestials, but then Hickman let the Black Panther stall Doctor Doom empowered by the Molecule Ma by using them, after which they were shown as mined by Celestials and of comparatively limited scope again.

I am not sure how to scale them properly.
 
Not sure this helps, but the Marvel Database describes the Gauntlet's power as such:

Even the combined powers of beings like Eternity, Watcher, Lord Chaos, Master Order, Mistress Love, Sire Hate, Kronos, the Celestials, Death, and Galactus made up only a small fraction of the Gauntlet's power. The only known beings with power exceeding that of the Gauntlet are the Living Tribunal and the One-Above-All
I don't think any casual perusers will bother to check stats beyond Marvel DB, so I propose we should use said characters to scale only.
 
Well, should we place the gems at "At least 2-C/2-B, likely far higher" for overpowering several universal cosmic entities at the same time, but also having problems with Celestials on another occasion? Or would all of the retcons make several statistics keys necessary?
 
Antvasima said:
Hmm. It seems like she does not currently scale from the other universal cosmic entities, so it is possible that we should upgrade her from Low 2-C to "At least 2-C" instead.
Click to expand...
You should change her Dark Phoenix key too since like have said numerous times in 4-5 other threads:

So she is At least 2C.

PrinceOfTheMorning said:
If you're asking if I can do the profile, then sure. If you're asking whether it should be done, then honestly I can't give a definite answer. Jean was supposed to have the full power of the Phoenix so it at least makes sense to me.
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The full power of the whole thing. Matthew's opinion on this

Tribunal would be worried over an At Least 2C level character? Phoenix Force (Earth-616) has performed Multversal feat in the past. The Phoenix Consciouness in the White Hot that guides WPOTC is the full Force. It resides in the White Hot Room. Ant forgot to mention that according to the Force in the previous sca, every host leaves a piece of itself there. The hosts you mentioned are "pieces".

The 616 Phoenix Force has shown greater feats than any other version, if in the Phoenix's case count as version or rather as fragments...
 
Antvasima said:
Well, should we place the gems at "At least 2-C/2-B, likely far higher" for overpowering several universal cosmic entities at the same time, but also having problems with Celestials on another occasion? Or would all of the retcons make several statistics keys necessary?
Click to expand...
I think 2-C likely far higher is a fitting tier, since I assume that it may be the most common potrayal for the object. We never see it take on absolute God-levels in most appearances, and 2-C potrayal is far more consistent IMO

I think that adding retcon keys will make it inefficient for now, as it may be bulky to read, and inconsistencies will likely still occur nonetheless. If a retcon key is significant enough, some CRT can likely ask for it to be added.
 
A few thoughts:

"What if?" stories are even more unreliable to scale from than regular ones. Anything can happen there, no matter how illogical. In addition, Dormammu goes up and down in power level all the time, depending on the writer, is not nearly as powerful outside of the Dark Dimension, and the Phoenix Five were shown as completely powerless in comparison to Cyttorak on his home turf.

The stars of the universe were going out when Galactus tried to separate the Phoenix from Rachel. That is not remotely a Low 2-C space-time feat.

Cyclops being nearly the size of a solar system does not automatically make him endless. That may be hyperbole stemming from the way that he felt at the moment.

Galactus sustains himself by absorbing life-energy, and Phoenix is the embodiment of life energy, so he naturally reveres her power.

The cosmic cubes did not say that, and their power stems from the Beyonders.

Reed Richard's statement is uncertain to scale from, as Galactus was not nearly as powerful back in those days, and even if we do, we do not know which state Reed was referring to.

What do you think that we should do POTM?
 
Anyway, we also need to figure out how to handle the cosmic cubes. Should we scale them to "At least 2-C" based on that 5 of them rendered universal Eternity catatonic, and that 1 of them overpowered Doctor Doom with Galactus' power?
 
@Ant

Regarding the Dark Phoenix stuff, I don't have much too much to add besides what you already said. However, considering Rachel's fight with Necrom could have destroyed the universe, combined with Reed's statement about Jean and Galactus, would a 3-A (A weaker Phoenix host, Rachel, could have destroyed the universe in her fight with Necrom), possibly 2-C (Reed compared her power to that of Galactus) rating be warranted?

Also, I agree that for now the IG should be scaled from stomping the Universal Abstracts. It has a few feats far higher than that but we'd need to look more into them and they might just be outliers.

And for the Cubes, agreed. The reference on the Celestial page about being infinities higher than them should also probably be removed.
 
Given that the displayed scale of the Rachel versus Necrom fight was only shown as 4-B, I think that the comment about destroying the universe was just a figure of speech.

However, Reed Richards comparing the Jean Grey Dark Phoenix to Galactus, and Rachel defeating a hungry Galactus when controlled by the Force itself, should be useful to scale from. Maybe "4-A, possibly higher" for the Phoenix avatars/hosts instead for their current 4-B ratings?

Okay, the question is whether we should count stomping many universal "At least 2-C" level cosmic entities at the same time as an "At least 2-B, likely higher" or just "At least 2-C, likely higher".

Thank you. Agreed. I am afraid that we preferably need a Cosmic Cubes page as well, to use as a reference.
 
I don't know about scaling all Phoenix hosts to Jean Grey, but at the very least she should get the 4-A, possibly higher rating.

I think your second option is safer for the IG.

It would probably help, yeah. I'm about to sleep, so I can try to crank one out tomorrow at some point.
 
Okay. Thanks a lot for all of your help. I have waited for Marvel revisions for a long time.

Are you willing to revise The Infinity Gauntlet page as well? It is probably necessary to add a footnote that the Black Panther fighting God Emperor Doom is considered as an outlier.
 
PrinceOfTheMorning said:
I don't know about scaling all Phoenix hosts to Jean Grey, but at the very least she should get the 4-A, possibly higher rating.

I think your second option is safer for the IG.

It would probably help, yeah. I'm about to sleep, so I can try to crank one out tomorrow at some point.
Click to expand...
Jean is a special case like I have posted in the previous scan. Why 4A? 4A is Hungry Galactus! (at his weakest!) Why Reed couldn't compare her to 2C Galactus? Why you downgrade her so much? Galactus against Rachel was starving. Reed could compare her to Thor for example but he compared her to Galactus. Galactus concept of being Hungry existed back then. Reed could say hungry Galactus but he didn't. Also isn't Doom with Galactus power egarded as 2C?

@Ant even we don't count What Ifs Dark Phoenix has the statements to be 2C. Dark Phoenix Cyclops was defeated by the combined forces of Hope and Wanda. Wanda is At Least 2C possibly higher and Hope was replicating her powers. Jean is >> Scott. This all more supports a 2C rating. Also, Cyclops was going to ascend to the White Hot Room. That White you see in the panel is the White Hot Room (not to mention that he see a galaxy in the background.... Ascending a Unviverse is a low 2C according to you.

You change your opinion too many times. In other threads you agreed with Matthews scaling. We don't cherry pick tiers. Dark Phoenix also got "stronger" too. The original DP was just Jean to cosmic levels but it was retconned.

You didn't say anything about the last scan with Tribunal.
 
Galactus had never remotely been displayed at a 2-C scale at that point in time, and it fits better with how the Phoenix controlling Rachel took some time to defeat a starving Galactus.

I suppose that you have a point about Cyclops with the Phoenix Force nearly ascending to the White Hot Room.

I am trying to be openminded and have a hard time keeping track of the specifics of previous discussions, since I have participated in so many.

I do not see how a "for the sake of the multiverse" sentence means that the universal Phoenix can somehow affect the entire structure at once, and it would create a massive scaling problem if we counted it as such.
 
Antvasima said:
Galactus had never remotely been displayed at a 2-C scale at that point in time, and it fits better with how the Phoenix controlling Rachel took some time to defeat a starving Galactus.

I suppose that you have a point about Cyclops with the Phoenix Force nearly ascending to the White Hot Room.

I am trying to be openminded and have a hard time keeping track of the specifics of previous discussions, since I have participated in so many.

I do not seem how a "for the sake of the multiverse" sentence means that the universal Phoenix can somehow affect the entire structure at once, and it would create a massive scaling problem if we counted it as such.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the answer.

We didn't see Phoenix Rachel struggle at all though... She didn't mean to destroy him either. Also DP Cyclops having nearly ascended to the White Hot Room + his feats fighting the Scarlet Witch and Hope make room for a 2C rating from which Jean scales above.

Phoenix Force unlike the other abstracts is different. Like Death have said before, its a Force. Remember 616 Phoenix has Multiverse level feats before like this. Phoenix draws power from its whole self and has fragments around the whole Multiverse. These fragments and the Force reuire Avatars to act. Like Universal Eternity is an avatar of the Multi Eternity. When teen Jean went into the White Hot Room, the heart of the Phoenix she was confronted by 616 Phoenix.
 
She did struggle. It took quite some time for her to defeat him.

I am still not willing to upgrade Jean far beyond the universal abstracts and on par with the multiversal ones. Sorry.
 
Antvasima said:
She did struggle. It took quite some time for her to defeat him.

I am still not willing to upgrade Jean far beyond the universal abstracts and on par with the multiversal ones. Sorry.
Click to expand...
Even If you don't... Upgrade DP Jean and Cyclops according to the feats at least.

Personally I for WPOTC would write

At least 2C, posibly High 1B with the explanation of being one with Phoenix Force. Being one with it doesn't clarify which version.

< I would use this as an explanation.
 
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