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Frisk Low 2-C Upgrade

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Bernkastelll said:
Thats not an counter after all
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Bernkastelll said:
chad_meme.jpg
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I already did so above, the thread's so disorganized I already figured many users didn't see it, and case in point you have the time to post some meme in it.
Arceus0x said:
Could you just, you know, not call us common users? We ain't commoners and you ain't a noble. We are average users, normal users. Common is a tad bit mean. The main differences between us is that you've spent more time on the site and have a shiny mod rank. Otherwise we're just average people. All our opinions matter... Don't they?
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I do call users who aren't staff regular users too, "average users" sounds worst and I really don't see the point in pointing this out in the thread, you could make a private message. It doesn't imply from my part that you are "commoners and [I'm] a noble", nor that not all opinions matter, that all made up, it's logically just that the disagreement I have with this users sometimes it's extremely big, they have that in common is in a way that I can refer to them by that in a general manner and they get offended because disagreeing=bad. There is at least 1 regular users I called to the thread and others out there I consider very good, and there are staff like Cal whom I disagree with in a consistent basis and degree equal to any regular user. There are less staff than regular users anyway and it just so happen that I disagree less with them, that's not something to make a deal out of, it just happens.
RinneItachi said:
"common users" Someone not being a staff member doesn't change that their opinion has relevancy, but sure try to take advantage of the fact that you're a Thread Mod and say that other opinions mean less than your own because of that, definitely fair to other people. Even if it's not literally performed by just existing, it doesn't change Low 2-C durability for Frisk. The rest of that paragraph is just nonsense not worth addressing, and is even further disrespectful to the people in this thread.

"common users" I've literally been here since 2019, have taken place in many arguments, and have even caused changed to pages in the past, but yeah I guess because you're a mod that means your opinion has more value than anyone else. Kind of cringe man. But keep arguing because Low 2-C dura for Frisk doesn't fit your narrative of Undertale being extremely weak.
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As before, I don't care, I didn't imply their opinions have have less relevancy because they're common users, but because I take those opinions as wrong. I take thay as basic and your stuff here as cringy if anything, I don't have a "narrative of Undertale being extremely weak".

I also take this as an oppressive tactic to use on me, me being this racist against regular users can easily be exploited as me doing something bad, emotionally gang up others against me and help whatever CRT the matter is being talked about while never using private messages to talk things up there.
Bernkastelll said:
Undertale is made by several monsters with magic, an alive skeleton who loves jokes, and Asriel is literally a goat/cow that throw stars, but destroying a timeline is not common sense, so, the feat is invalid
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This is a dishonest way of trying to ridicule me while lying about what I believe and said, Asriel is destroying the timeline, I never said he wasn't destroying the timeline. Things like this I need to not just take in but also either reply that they're wrong or accept that others may believe someone claiming I believe something I don't. It happens I lot and I really don't like it, and that's when I can see it happen anyway.
 
Eficiente said:
This is a dishonest way of trying to ridicule me while lying about what I believe and said, Asriel is destroying the timeline, I never said he wasn't destroying the timeline. Things like this I need to not just take in but also either reply that they're wrong or accept that others may believe someone claiming I believe something I don't. It happens I lot and I really don't like it, and that's when I can see it happen anyway.
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Bro u literally mentioned that wanted to ban arguments and made a Common Sense page, wtf does it even means? sure, if u arent against the Low 2-C, what are u doing?
 
Eficiente, you said a lot, but instead swerved around their thoughts on how you said what you said.

You instead tried hard to justify your position but also couldn't be bothered to even extend a small apology towards those who felt insulted by you. It isn't weakness to apologize and realize one's mistakes, whether or not it was unintentional, you know..

I didn't even feel personally offended by what you said, like at all, but I can understand why others believed you were attempting to belittle them. C'mon.
 
Eficiente said:
I already did so above, the thread's so disorganized I already figured many users didn't see it, and case in point you have the time to post some meme in it.

I do call users who aren't staff regular users too, "average users" sounds worst and I really don't see the point in pointing this out in the thread, you could make a private message. It doesn't imply from my part that you are "commoners and [I'm] a noble", nor that not all opinions matter, that all made up, it's logically just that the disagreement I have with this users sometimes it's extremely big, they have that in common is in a way that I can refer to them by that in a general manner and they get offended because disagreeing=bad. There is at least 1 regular users I called to the thread and others out there I consider very good, and there are staff like Cal whom I disagree with in a consistent basis and degree equal to any regular user. There are less staff than regular users anyway and it just so happen that I disagree less with them, that's not something to make a deal out of, it just happens.

As before, I don't care, I didn't imply their opinions have have less relevancy because they're common users, but because I take those opinions as wrong. I take this as basic and yours here as cringy if anything, I don't have a "narrative of Undertale being extremely weak".

I also take this as an oppressive tactic to use on me, me being this racist against regular users can easily be exploited as me doing something bad, emotionally gang up others against me and help what CRT the matter is being talked about while never using private messages to talk things up there.

This is a dishonest way of trying to ridicule me while lying about what I believe and said, Asriel is destroying the timeline, I never said he wasn't destroying the timeline. Things like this I need to not just take in but also either reply that they're wrong or accept that others may believe someone claiming I believe something I don't. It happens I lot and I really don't like it, and that's when I can see it happen anyway.
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Not gonna talk about the first part.

Your intentions were very obvious.

That's what you were directly implying, only now you're trying to change that instead of just apologizing. Saying you don't doesn't mean you don't.

"racist"? The word you're looking for is elitist. Now you're claiming that I'm using mob mentality to "gang up" on you when you were literally insulting all of us? Man people who play the victim card in these situations are always the worst to deal with.

Again not gonna talk about this part.
 
The thread has become inactive again, but we should really get back on track. I'm tired of talking about Efeciente and will ignore the remainder of his messages on this thread unless they directly pertain to the main topic. Can we just focus on Frisk's AP since pretty much everyone here agrees on Low 2-C durability?
 
@Eficiente i am not used to using private messages sorry. I didn't intend to turn this into a ******** i just don't like common users, average just means like the average joe, basically the archetype user, but i do get your point, average doesn't seem that good of a word either.
It does seem that i misunderstood some of your wording and i was a bit harsh on the noble/commoner thing, that is my fault, sorry.
 
DaReaperMan said:
@Eficiente the only way in hell Frisk's durability for immense DT isn't Low 2-C is if Asriel isn't Low 2-C. Because Frisk literally face-tanked Asriel blasting them at full power and not holding back.
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So, needless to say this has to be a reply to the comment where I replied to the stuff in the thread, because the comment before this one didn't talk about this bit. I already said that while I disagree with it, there is at least a decent argument to be made about it, so, I'm gonna prioritize to deal with the rest of the chaos here assuming that's not just going to be pushed to be added anyway.
DaReaperMan said:
@Eficiente oh and get off your pony, just because your staff doesn't give you the right to disrespect others, in fact it means you should be an example for how to behave, what is a random person just visiting supposed to believe when a staff is just disrespecting the average user?

"Oh the staff here are Aholes, I probably don't want to be a part of the community."

Is that the message you want to send Efi? Really?
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Well, you are in part correct there, no random person should come to the wiki and see that, but disrespect towards what would I be giving? You say others these but it's not them as persons, what I do admit I disrespected before was their punctual opinions over things going on in the wiki. That's not the same at all and it's highly interpretable. Now, what is not interpretable is the reaction to it being claims of me having meant certain things I didn't or believing certain things I don't, like you in that quote very much implying that "just because [I'm a] staff" I would have the "right to disrespect others", and that being 1 of the many, many things thrown around. Those not-interpretable claims towards me I could take as disrespectful, and I do imagine sometimes come via malice or dishonesty to get a CRT across, but I also know they can just be misunderstandings and come out of innocence, so I don't care much beyond pointing out what I don't belive or meant.
Arceus0x said:
Aye aye aye, i just pointed out what was probably an unthoughtful wording choice and asked not to do that no more, i didn't tell everyone to start writing paragraphs about "top 10 reasons why efi is disrespectful".
He may disrespect the opinion but he didn't specifically disrespect us besides the one wording choice, i ain't here to start a witch hunt.
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I'm just seeing this after having just wrote something like it. That's good to hear.
Bernkastelll said:
bro, its not the first time, he even once said that ''normal users doesnt think as staff''
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This raises both of my eyebrows, can you link it to me on a private message? Also, if I had and heck even I was intentionally & purely malicius about it (which no), that wouldn't recontextualize things for me for what I said to be way worst than the words I used and have shown to believe so far, not for nothing I can repeatedly see a potential bias against me when things like this happen, and 2 wrongs don't make a right.
RinneItachi said:
No one is witch hunting him, we're pointing out how disrespectful he's being. He's being overly argumentative despite literally everyone else involved agreeing with Low 2-C durability and refuses to keep trying to argue, instead relying on his staff position to say we're wrong because we aren't staff, and stating that we lack common sense, which is quite literally insulting our intelligence, regardless of whether or not it's direct, while even stating that we're bias and will never listen to him no matter what he says, acting as if we've been arguing with him for weeks even though there's not even a hundred messages about the topic in total. Extremely cringy.
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This for instance I would see as wrong through innocence, with no disrespect meant. It doesn't matter how many people believe something next to if other person believes something else, it doesn't make sense for me to keep arguing when the disagreement to what I said is pretty much "I agree with the other's take", I would be talking for no reason and saying the same twice, I explicitly didn't rely on my position as a staff nor did anything that would imply that, let alone use that to say non-staff are wrong. Well, I do technically stated a lack of common sense on "you", but wording it like that is super dishonest, "I take something I believe as common sense and express that in a place where others disagree with it", that's not something bad to do that shouldn't be done or disallowed to happen or that should need an apology every time it happens to those who felt disrespected for it, I just gave an opinion, really. "Quite literally insulting [your] intelligence" like you say would be quite literally saying that others, as persons, are dumb or something, you even then point out that it's not direct which goes against what you just said of it being quite literally that, the victimization and drama taken from is clear. I didn't really say that you "will never listen to [me] no matter what" I say (on everything), just that in 1 thing claimed over 3 threads I don't believe I can change the minds of those believing that. Idk for how long those other 2 threads were. It's not "Extremely cringy", they're many things misunderstood due to lack of text comprehension.
Axxtentacle said:
Eficiente is the physical embodiment of "I am above you and you mean nothing" here. Shocked he got staff.
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I mean, I always argued to that being embodiment of something shouldn't give characters a tier based on it or powers over it unless proven, and that it's just some title/category that's given, so sure why not, if you want to say I'm that then I'm that from your point of view.

It's also super absurd and clearly meant to dishonestly degrade me as well as pointless derailment to get the upgrades done.
 
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Eficiente said:
This raises both of my eyebrows, can you link it to me on a private message? Also, if I had and heck even I was intentionally & purely malicius about it (which no), that wouldn't recontextualize things for me for what I said to be way worst than the words I used and have shown to believe so far, no for nothing I can repeatedly see a potential bias against me when things like this happen, and 2 wrongs don't make a right.
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it was in a mario thread, even another mod noticed it
 
RinneItachi said:
Wdym? No upgrade has been made yet. If you mean that this wouldn't be an upgrade, Frisk has no Low 2-C durability anywhere on their profile, nor any key at all for their state against Asriel.
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I know, I'm just being sarcastic because of the situation, too bad on Efficient's part.
 
Furthermore, what I meant to say is that because of his behavior it is better to ignore him and continue with the original purpose of the CRT.
 
I really do not see the problem with Frisk having Universe level+ dura, we can clearly see that they tanked that attack from a Full Powered Asriel (I’m sorry for sounding like that guy) @Eficiente I don’t see a reason for Frisk to not have Low 2-C dura. End of discussion. (My apologies if I’m coming off as rude.)
 
But there isn't much to discuss anyways. Everyone agrees with Low 2-C dura Frisk except Efeciente who is no longer even arguing about the topic anymore, and the reasoning supporting it is very valid. I think we have more than enough to apply that. The only relevant thing to discuss is their AP in this tier.
 
Since I didn't give my opinion, I also agree with Low 2-C Dura for Frisk. I'm not sure about the AP so I'll keep reading you guys.
 
Now as for Low 2-C AP, eh. Like I said before, I’m not sure, Frisk didn’t even do any damage to Asriel. So I’m fine with At least 9-B, likely (or possibly) far higher with immense amounts of Determination.
 
If he couldn't damage Asriel, wouldn't it be better to scale him with the base AP of the other characters?
 
That's where the At least 9-B suggestion comes from. Frisk already scales to 9-B characters even with minimal Determination, so with immense DT they'd certainly be far above that, but since we have no exact way to tell, the best bet is probably to just go with "At least 9-B, likely far higher".
 
I still think 'unknown' for the AP would be better, it just sounds wrong for frisk to only be able to break a wall while they're tanking attacks more than strong enough to wipe out the universe
 
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So what is the consensus here so far, and which staff members think what?
 
Antvasima said:
So what is the consensus here so far, and which staff members think what?
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basically everyone who participated in this thread aside from eficiente thinks frisk's durability should be bumped up to low 2-C, and what exactly their AP should be changed to seems to be kinda split but the options are either "unknown (was unable to harm asriel but should be far stronger than before)" or "at least 9-B, likely far higher (same reason)"

I think it should be unknown or "unknown, possibly low 2-C" just because it feels wrong for frisk to have a baseline of being able to break a wall while they're tanking attacks more than strong enough to destroy the universe
@Therefir agrees with upgrading their durability but idk what they think about their AP
 
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Justkillme42069 said:
basically everyone who participated in this thread aside from eficiente thinks frisk's durability should be bumped up to low 2-C, and what exactly their AP should be changed to seems to be kinda split but the options i think are either "unknown" or "at least 9-B, likely far higher", @Therefir agrees with upgrading their durability but idk what they think about their AP
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DDM said they were neutral and would go through this later
 
Bernkastelll said:
Yeah, I mean, there is nothing much to do about it, Frisk durability def scales to Low 2-C, everyone with solid arguments agreeing, but Eficiente disagreeing because its not common sense, bro, he is literally the only person against it and he isnt even arguing, his argument is that we should make a ''cOmMoN sEnsE'' page and ban arguments
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Once again dishonesty, I legit went as far as to talk positive about Frisk having that while disagreeing with it, you're putting my believe on something into something else and portraying it worst than how I said it.
RinneItachi said:
To be more exact, his argument is "lol i'm staff and you're not so that means i'm right, you're all stupid and we should ban your arguments". Basically what he's saying but much less direct in his message.
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I can hardly keep up with this much dishonesty and fake claims of what I said, I'm gonna make a pause and try to come back if I have the willpower to go over things like this.
 
before that can we just agree on what to change frisk's AP to real quick

I think it should be unknown just because it sounds wrong for frisk's baseline to be breaking a wall while they're able to tank attacks more than strong enough to wipe out the universe
even having it as possibly or likely low 2-C or even straight up low 2-C would probably be fine since even if they couldn't hurt asriel, they could still just be a lot weaker on the low 2-C spectrum than him, and it also seems to be a given that AP scales to durability because logically someone's body should be able to output as much force as it can handle taking
 
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After looking through the thread, Asriel is indeed Low 2-C which Frisk did literally stand up to one of his strongest attacks. This didn't appear to be one of those, "he was knocked out and blown away but he still survived." Which would be common examples of outliers. But Frisk does often stand up to attacks from god tiers by the looks of it. So I think Frisk being a stonewall with Low 2-C durability is consistent.
 
I still think their AP should be 'unknown' in this state, it is unknown after all, we really don't know how strong they are in this state, but I'd probably be happy if we could just all agree on something to change it to at this point ¯\(ツ)/¯
 
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