Frisk and Photoshop Flowey should not be Tier 8

[Deleted member 16409]

if for example the god tiers got upgraded to 1-B, chara would scale to 1-B for existing as a god tier in itself.

Oh ok.

Is it possible to BFR someone with da barrier thought?

 

[Comiphorous]

Is it possible to BFR someone with da barrier thought?

you'd have to be pretty ******* elaborate on it;

have enemy absorb a boss monster/human soul.

throw them into the barrier.

hope to god he doesn't just walk right back through

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I

you'd have to be pretty ******* elaborate on it;

have enemy absorb a boss monster/human soul.

throw them into the barrier.

hope to god he doesn't just walk right back through

God.

Well anyway, thanks for answers.

Maybe after some Deltarune Chapters somehow Undertale multiverse will be unleashed.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

The barrier is Low 2-C.

That implies the barrier can tank a low 2-C attack.

 

[XVII]

The barrier is Low 2-C.

having 7 souls makes you universal+, not 8-A+.

oh yeah, MB sorry

 

[XVII]

That implies the barrier can tank a low 2-C attack.

i mean, asriel charged up his attack before destroying it so... yea

 

[Comiphorous]

That implies the barrier can tank a low 2-C attack.

which universal mfer is so weak he cant damage a baseline low 2-C wall

 

[GodlyCharmander]

which universal mfer is so weak he cant damage a baseline low 2-C wall

Asriel, my man used literally all he had to destroy it

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Asriel, my man used literally all he had to destroy it

By the way.
Actually, Barrier easily tanked every attack what did used, so, seems like the barrier is higher than baseline low2c.

And seems like that Asriel COULD hold up souls again, but he couldn't do it for moral reasons.
So, this is his strongest attack...?

Either way, The 7 Great Magicians didn't even used the strongest spell, it was just their strong spell, but not the strongest.

God, how strong they was?

 

[Comiphorous]

By the way.
Actually, Barrier easily tanked every attack what did used, so, seems like the barrier is higher than baseline low2c.

And seems like that Asriel COULD hold up souls again, but he couldn't do it for moral reasons.
So, this is his strongest attack...?

Either way, The 7 Great Magicians didn't even used the strongest spell, it was just their strong spell, but not the strongest.

God, how strong they was?

I like to think that the mages just wanted to make a regular-ass barrier and accidently created a barrier that required the power to destroy the universe to do break it and were just like 'well shit, anyways'

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I like to think that the mages just wanted to make a regular-ass barrier and accidently created a barrier that required the power to destroy the universe to do break it and were just like 'well shit, anyways'

If Barrier have Acausality then I gonna laugh and be even more scared from Mages.

That the Greates Mages of Humanity, and they are stronger than Angel itself

 

[Deleted member 16409]

you'd have to be pretty ******* elaborate on it;

have enemy absorb a boss monster/human soul.

throw them into the barrier.

hope to god he doesn't just walk right back through

Actually it's far easier to make.

You need to Absorb Soul, leave the Underground and abuse your range to kill your opponent or just leave.

If your opponent doesn't have SOUL Absorption then they would get BFRed

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

dead thread lmao

 

[GodlyCharmander]

There is clearly no interest in this. A staff, and multiple knowledgeable supporters disagreed with the thread, so... Well, you can leave it here, or close it. Because I don't think it'll go anywhere.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

BUMP

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

Anything new to add given the latest arguments?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

While those 8-C Calc for Frisk and High 8-C Calc for Omega Flowey seem reliable, I just want to say that I don't really see any reason why Omega Flowey and Frisk should be downgraded.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

While those 8-C Calc for Frisk and High 8-C Calc for Omega Flowey seem reliable, I just want to say that I don't really see any reason why Omega Flowey and Frisk should be downgraded.

...all the reasons I gave for Soul Power and Determination being different things, and how Determination doesn't scale to Soul Power?

 

[DaReaperMan]

...all the reasons I gave for Soul Power and Determination being different things, and how Determination doesn't scale to Soul Power?

Not everyone has to agree with you just because ya made an argument...

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I simply don't believe that those arguments are true.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Not everyone has to agree with you just because ya made an argument...

I simply don't believe that those arguments are true.

Yes, I get that.
Explain why they are wrong.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes, I get that.
Explain why they are wrong.

How about the counter-arguments? They do exist even though you don't like em.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I gotta ask, tho... Why is this thread still alive? Wasn't it already disagreed by several folks - including moi - that this proposed downgrade shouldn't go through?

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

How about the counter-arguments? They do exist even though you don't like em.

The last one was "Monsters said that Human Souls persisted after death thanks to their power, and Alphys says that determination is what makes human souls persist after death, therefore determination is soul power".

I adressed that in the OP.

I gotta ask, tho... Why is this thread still alive? Wasn't it already disagreed by several folks - including moi - that this proposed downgrade shouldn't go through?

People disagreed at the beginning when most of the arguments in the OP weren't even made.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The last one was "Monsters said that Human Souls persisted after death thanks to their power, and Alphys says that determination is what makes human souls persist after death, therefore determination is soul power".

This was one of the first arguments.

Plus, your answer is just argument from incredulity and reintegrations of previous arguments. The readings say the power that surpassed monsters was the one which allowed the SOULs to persist after death, Alphys discovers it and states it's Determination.

This is a fact. Those were events transpired in the game, the ancient readings were talking about Determination.
Human SOUL Determination was described as being above all monsters.
The ancient readings were talking about the power of humans in a fight.

These aren't faulty interpretations, or theories. These are facts.

Your counters boils down to:
"Lack of feats"
Doesn't need them for upscaling.

"How would they measure it!?!?!?!?"
You're just questioning the claim itself. We do not have the obligation to answer that, that's Toby Fox's job.

"Soul Power is different!!"
That is irrelevant, the terminology is irrelevant. The power described as 8-B was Determination (which can be harnessed), objectively.

"RW isn't AP"
Environmental Destruction would like to have a word with you, but nah.
It isn't AP. I'm not saying it is. But Time Hax and RW is a clear depiction of Determination being harnessed from the SOULs by Flowey, it acts as an evidence if that, not evidence of the value of the rating, lmao.

Either way, this is bogus. You really have nothing on your side besides your own interpretations of the events, and being incredulous on the claims the game makes. Absolutely not enough for a downgrade.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

The readings say the power that surpassed monsters was the one which allowed the SOULs to persist after death

Yes, people from the race whose souls can only persist after death out of sheer strenght and not determination, and that didn't know what determination was, said that human souls persisted after death out of sheer strenght.

But let's assume that the lab entry number five gave it credibility retroactively: that's several instances of determination and soul power not matching against one statement.

"Lack of feats"
Doesn't need them for upscaling.

Then I ask you why Frisk isn't 8-B at any given moment, you say is because of determination, then I ask why determination is considered soul power if the former fluctuates while the latter doesn't, then you say that Frisk always has the maximum amount of determination and what changes is how much they can use, and then I ask how is a substance that significantly affects the body in it's maximun quantity without significantly affecting the body

"How would they measure it!?!?!?!?"
You're just questioning the claim itself. We do not have the obligation to answer that, that's Toby Fox's job.

I'm not asking how they did it, I'm asking how they got that result when determination varies and the thought of they only measuring humans at the peak of their determination and no one else is ludicrous, then you say humans always have the maximum amount of determination...

"Soul Power is different!!"
That is irrelevant, the terminology is irrelevant. The power described as 8-B was Determination (which can be harnessed), objectively.

Undyne the Undying's soul being weaker that Asgore and Toriel's while having more determination than both is objective.
Frisk being overpowered by beings with less determination and less soul power is objective.
Determination not helping monster's souls persist after death is objective.

"RW isn't AP"
Environmental Destruction would like to have a word with you, but nah.
It isn't AP. I'm not saying it is. But Time Hax and RW is a clear depiction of Determination being harnessed from the SOULs by Flowey, it acts as an evidence if that, not evidence of the value of the rating, lmao.

Solar cars moving is proof that they are harnesing energy from the sun, where are my High 6-A cars?

Also, argue for Reality warping when there isn't a blog linked in several profiles debunking it.

Either way, this is bogus. You really have nothing on your side besides your own interpretations of the events, and being incredulous on the claims the game makes. Absolutely not enough for a downgrade.

Either way, this is bogus. You really have nothing on your side besides your own interpretations of the events, and connecting two unlrelated sources of information because they said "persist after death". Hard carried by people FRAing to go against the downgrade.

 

[XVII]

got damn

everybody already agreed that this is cap and won't be accepted

just close it already

 

[Deleted member 16409]

got damn

everybody already agreed that this is cap and won't be accepted

just close it already

by the way his "-snip-" thingy was funi.

Still thinking about creating Undertale upgrade.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes, people from the race whose souls can only persist after death out of sheer strength

Dante, that's bullshit. This has never being the case, EVER.

I ask how is a substance that significantly affects the body in it's maximun quantity without significantly affecting the body.

It doesn't have to.
Don't you bring Undyne up, she's made out of ******* magic.

I'm not asking how they did it, I'm asking how--

What you're asking is irrelevant to this thread.
We don't know, end of story. The FACT is that they got the value, either live with that or be in denial, it doesn't really matter to me.

Undyne the Undying's soul being weaker that Asgore and Toriel's while having more determination than both is objective.

Using more***

Frisk being overpowered by beings with less determination and less soul power is objective.

Because Frisk was using a lesser amount of determination than the necessary to compensate for the difference.
You also fail to cite how Frisk can go the ENTIRE game at Level 1, with no equipment, but will ALWAYS be strong enough to deal with stronger monsters with stats tenfold or more their own. Why is that, voodoo magic?

Determination not helping monster's souls persist after death is objective.

Monsters have a slight amount of Determination, which is how Undyne could even use it in the first place.

Solar cars moving is proof that they are harnesing energy from the sun, where are my High 6-A cars?

...
I am sorry, I can't wrap my head around this completely idiotic, ignorant, and false equivalent comparasion.


DANTE, DOES A SOLAR CAR CONTAIN THE ENTIRE SUN THEY'RE HARNESSING THE ENERGY FROM INSIDE OF THEM? GOLLY, I DON'T THINK SO, DANTE! IT'S ALMOST LIKE THIS COMPARISON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS METAPHYSICAL STUFF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!

connecting two unlrelated sources of information because they said "persist after death".

UNRELATED, DANTE? Just because YOU are twisting the narrative and basic interpretation for the sake of your argument, doesn't mean it's unrelated Dante

"The power described by the ancient readings which has the same description as Determination, is not Determination, but another power ability or capability that's never explored by the narrative, never elaborated, and isn't relevant to the way SOULs functions to the point where Toby didn't even go out of his way to explain this!!! Yes!!! Even though, narratively, the power being revealed as DT is practically the plot twist of the game, and it would fit perfectly, IT'S THIS MYSTERIOUS POWER"

Ah hell no, you're a lost case. You're being a intellectually dishonest person.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Dante, that's bullshit. This has never being the case, EVER.

IIRC, even Alphys said that the reason WHY the SOUL is persisting is the Determination.

Determination actually isn't just a power of will, it's just how SOUL power was called.

And even then, Asgore got the most determined soul in the underground since it's persisting longer than Toriel's.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

IIRC, even Alphys said that the reason WHY the SOUL is persisting is the Determination.

Determination actually isn't just a power of will, it's just how SOUL power was called.

And even then, Asgore got the most determined soul in the underground since it's persisting longer than Toriel's.

It's literally headcanon vs actual game lore, this is ridiculous.

Literally, who the hell said Monsters are completely absent of any amount of Determination?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

It's literally headcanon vs actual game lore, this is ridiculous.

You saying that my message is headcanon or what? Or just I'm stupid enough

Literally, who the hell said Monsters are completely absent of any amount of Determination?

no one, Undyne is here and Toriel&Asgore still exist

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Dante, that's bullshit. This has never being the case, EVER.

Undyne.
Both in the genocide and neutral route, no less.
But feel free to show me monster soul persisting after death thanks to determination.
WARNING: Don't say Toriel or Asgore if you can't explain why Undyne's soul doesn't persist after death.

It doesn't have to.

Wow that's not an argument.

What you're asking is irrelevant to this thread.
We don't know, end of story. The FACT is that they got the value, either live with that or be in denial, it doesn't really matter to me.

Yes, when you say that determination is always in it's maximum quantity, and the reason it doesn't show it's propeties is because "it doesn't have too", then suddently it doesn't matter to you.

Using more***

And now you're arguing that Toriel and Asgore have more determination than Undyne the Undying. I don't know what to tell you.

Because Frisk was using a lesser amount of determination than the necessary to compensate for the difference.

So you're telling me that having more determination than someone and more soul power doesn't mean that you're stronger than that someone?

You also fail to cite how Frisk can go the ENTIRE game at Level 1, with no equipment, but will ALWAYS be strong enough to deal with stronger monsters with stats tenfold or more their own. Why is that, voodoo magic?

Pretty sure that falls under player's choice. Also, what I'm getting from this is that you think I'm denying that Frisk gets stronger the more determined they are? No, I'm just saying that the relation between Determination, Soul Power, and AP/Dura is not a 1 to 1 to 1, so you can be overpowered by beings that have less Soul Power and Determination, and your soul being x strong doesn't mean You are or can be x strong

Monsters have a slight amount of Determination, which is how Undyne could even use it in the first place.

Yes, if you take the exception as the rule, then every monster has determination

DANTE, DOES A SOLAR CAR CONTAIN THE ENTIRE SUN THEY'RE HARNESSING THE ENERGY FROM INSIDE OF THEM? GOLLY, I DON'T THINK SO, DANTE!

So you're telling me that there can be a variery of factors that can make your power output not match your power source?
Like your body not being made of magic?

"The power described by the ancient readings which has the same description as Determination

Written by people who don't know what determination is and whose souls work differently

, is not Determination, but another power ability or capability that's never explored by the narrative

It's soul power, you're not playing attention.

, never elaborated, and isn't relevant to the way SOULs functions to the point where Toby didn't even go out of his way to explain this!!! Yes!!! Even though, narratively, the power being revealed as DT is practically the plot twist of the game, and it would fit perfectly, IT'S THIS MYSTERIOUS POWER"

You're acting as if the plot twist dissapears if Determination is not Soul Power, it doesn't.

Ah hell no, you're a lost case. You're being a intellectually dishonest person.

And you don't understand what I'm typing, kinda hard to trust you on this.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

WARNING: Don't say Toriel or Asgore if you can't explain why Undyne's soul doesn't persist after death. Wow that's not an argument.
And now you're arguing that Toriel and Asgore have more determination than Undyne the Undying. I don't know what to tell you.

You're saying that at the same time as you're arguing "output =/= source".
However, I do know what to tell you.

Asgore, and Toriel's SOULs have a higher concentration of Determination than Undyne's. Undyne just used more DT than the usual amount Asgore and Toriel can use. (which is not that much higher than them in the first place, Undyne isn't that much stronger).

Obviously they can't use all the DT of their SOULs because their bodies would literally ******* melt.

Yes, when you say that determination is always in it's maximum quantity.

Oh yeah, I said that, when-
Wait

oh no, I NEVER said that, did I? Ohh, I see.

Dante, get this through your thick skull.

How they got the value is irrelevant. We do not care about that.
That has no bearing on our judgement.
Your skepticism is about the game itself, you simply don't believe Toby, that's your problem, I genuinely do not care. Drop this argument already, you will get nowhere with it.

So you're telling me that having more determination than someone and more soul power doesn't mean that you're stronger than that someone?

I believe I told you this about 15 different times.

Yes, having a higher concentration of Determination doesn't automatically grant you 8-B AP, or even 9-A AP. It depends on how much the user can actually use of their concentration that matters.
Monsters have magic, and are sufficiently strong to deal with humans that can barely use their DT to attack.

No, I'm just saying that the relation between Determination, Soul Power, and AP/Dura is not a 1 to 1 to 1.

It is. Determination can outdo Monster SOULs, and go up to 8-B, if a human use the fullest extent of their DT, they can use that 8-B power. Again, stop pretending SOUL power is established differently than DT.
It literally just means "the Power of the SOUL", which has only being described as Determination, and nothing else.

Undyne isn't the exception, Dante. WHAT RULE? When was it stated that Monsters lack any sort of concentration of Determination? How can one be an exception of a rule that doesn't exists.
This is confirmation bias at it's finest.

"This power [...]", still talking about the power to persist after death on humans, which is confirmed to be caused by Determination
"Indeed has no counter, a human cannot absorb a monster SOUL [...]"

"There is only one exception. The SOUL of a special species called a "boss monsters". A Boss SOUL is strong enough to persist after death."

Now, do you genuinely believe that "strong" here means an outside context power that's never addressed?

No, that's an extraordinary claim.
It's still in the same context of the story. The power grants strength to the human SOUL so it persists after death.
Boss Monster SOULS have that strength to persist after death.
Undyne proves that monsters have Determination.
The power described is Determination.

LITERALLY.
Exception to what rule, Dante? What's the ******* rule?

 

[DaReaperMan]

First of all, watcha this charmander.

Second of all... it really does feel like your stonewalling for the sake of stonewalling Dante, this isn't Five Nights at Freddy's, you don't need to make these wild bombastic assumptions an then claim you have the best interpretation when everyone else has disagreed with said interpretation

 

[Deleted member 16409]

You're saying that at the same time as you're arguing "output =/= source".
However, I do know what to tell you.

Asgore, and Toriel's SOULs have a higher concentration of Determination than Undyne's. Undyne just used more DT than the usual amount Asgore and Toriel can use. (which is not that much higher than them in the first place, Undyne isn't that much stronger).

By the way, Asgore probably didn't turn into "super mega ass Multiversal++++ Outerverse destroyer" on g or any route because he just simply can't, if read Winter Alarm Clock, is know that both Toriel and Asgore having lacking of will because of complicated events what occurred a lot of years ago.

For example Toriel even forgor eat, clean up and etc while Asgore feeling sweet taste of sins and pain + he lost his best friend.

They're so broken so they just CAN'T will to fight or stop us like Undying want to

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

You're saying that at the same time as you're arguing "output =/= source".

Yes, when your body is not attuned soul.

Asgore, and Toriel's SOULs have a higher concentration of Determination than Undyne's.

Why aren't they refusing death like Undyne can do in base then?

Undyne just used more DT than the usual amount Asgore and Toriel can use.

Ah, so if Undyne is using more DT than Asgore and Toriel, and DT=Soul Power, then Asgore and Toriel are weaker than base Undyne. Good thing there isn't a check option that says otherwise.

Obviously they can't use all the DT of their SOULs because their bodies would literally ******* melt.

Wow, more evidence for Asgore and Toriel being weaker than base Undyne.

Oh yeah, I said that, when-
Wait

oh no, I NEVER said that, did I? Ohh, I see.

But hey, if you agree that Determination fluctuates, then at least we don't need to argue about DT being Soul Power anymore.

Dante, get this through your thick skull.

How they got the value is irrelevant. We do not care about that.
That has no bearing on our judgement.

Yes, it is indeed irrelevant when DT is not Soul Power, because they would get the same result everytime. If DT is Soul Power, then is relevant because that means those monster somehow measured exclusively the souls of humans at the peak of their determination and no one else

Your skepticism is about the game itself, you simply don't believe Toby, that's your problem, I genuinely do not care.

Then you didn't understand what I said.

I'm saying that those monsters that claim that Human Souls persist after death out of sheer strenght reached that conclusion due to lack of information. Characters can be wrong.

Yes, having a higher concentration of Determination doesn't automatically grant you 8-B AP, or even 9-A AP. It depends on how much the user can actually use of their concentration that matters.
Monsters have magic, and are sufficiently strong to deal with humans that can barely use their DT to attack.

And I never went against this.

Again, stop pretending SOUL power is established differently than DT.
It literally just means "the Power of the SOUL", which has only being described as Determination, and nothing else.

No, it's described as something that gives souls the strength to persist after death, the will to keep living and the resolve to change fate. You're just combining it with a statement from people that didn't know anything about DT.

Undyne isn't the exception, Dante. WHAT RULE? When was it stated that Monsters lack any sort of concentration of Determination? How can one be an exception of a rule that doesn't exists.

Well, if DT is Soul Power and Undyne in base can refuse death, then you shouldn't have any problem showing me how every monster stronger than Undyne can refuse death.

"This power [...]", still talking about the power to persist after death on humans, which is confirmed to be caused by Determination

Yes, wrong conclusions from lack of information

"Indeed has no counter, a human cannot absorb a monster SOUL [...]"

"There is only one exception. The SOUL of a special species called a "boss monsters". A Boss SOUL is strong enough to persist after death."

Now, do you genuinely believe that "strong" here means an outside context power that's never addressed?

No, I believe is Soul Power

No, that's an extraordinary claim.
It's still in the same context of the story. The power grants strength to the human SOUL so it persists after death.

Yes, that's DT.

Boss Monster SOULS have that strength to persist after death.

Yes, that's Soul Power.

Undyne proves that monsters have Determination.

Which is why other monsters can do what she can do, right?

The power described is Determination.

That's what I would belive if they knew what DT was, or even that it exist.

.
Exception to what rule, Dante? What's the ******* rule?

I think you're confused.

You took Undyne having DT and applied it to every other monster. YOU made that the rule, while I'm saying that's the exception.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

No, it's described as something that gives souls the strength to persist after death, the will to keep living and the resolve to change fate. You're just combining it with a statement from people that didn't know anything about DT.

BOTH DESCRIBE THE SAME ******* THING, WHICH IS CALLED DETERMINATION. JUST BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE DESCRIBING DETERMINATION (WHICH HASN'T BEEN DISCOVERED AS A SUBSTANCE YET) DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT DETERMINATION, THAT'S FAULTY LOGIC, FOR THE LOVE OF ****

IT'S THE SAME DESCRIPTION, DANTE. FOR ***** SAKE.

KEEP SAYING "IT'S WRONG BECAUSE THEY'RE IGNORANT" ALL YOU WANT, THAT'S NOT A ******* ARGUMENT.

Baseless claims that both statements which talk about the same ******* thing are actually talking about different things altogether. No, **** this, I'm out.

I am 110% done. Unfollowing.

 

[DaReaperMan]

...why are we arguing "they're ignorant" when it is the single source of info we have...? Sounds like bad arguments to me...

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

...why are we arguing "they're ignorant" when it is the single source of info we have...? Sounds like bad arguments to me...

That's not just a bad argument, that's an outright horrible argument. He's literally inserting his own Headcanon that the characters who've been studying this shit for God knows how long don't know what the **** they're talking about.