Frisk and Photoshop Flowey should not be Tier 8

[Imaginym]

...why are we arguing "they're ignorant" when it is the single source of info we have...? Sounds like bad arguments to me...

I kinda agree. Characters can be wrong, but without in-universe stuff indicating that they were wrong, we usually shouldn't just assume they were.
Because to assume a character is wrong means we just assumed the work lied & wasted time, effort & space by giving us false information. & if the information is false, then the ostensibly wrong claim is now pointless; Why would a work deliberately make a statement pointless, & even worse, make it seem important &/or true?
Not to mention, as said, it requires we have reason to believe that the character is an unreliable info source. Beyond their info being initially wrong because "Character 1 is unreliable because Statement 1 is unreliable because Character 1 is unreliable because Statement 1 is unreliable" seems like circular logic, at least.

Anyway, I was requested to input here. Would anyone be willing to summarize what the points of contention are, please?

It seems like currently, the argument seems to be regarding 1 or more of the following:
1. Are "SOUL power" & "Determination" 1 & the same? Are the terms interchangeable only some of the time? All of the time?
2. Does SOUL power correspond to AP? Or is the "power" it grants supernatural abilities, like controlling the timeline & coming back from death?
3. How much SOUL power/Determination should a human be assumed to have?

Are there topics to the current debate I failed to list? Have I correctly assessed the current topics of debate?

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

...why are we arguing "they're ignorant" when it is the single source of info we have...? Sounds like bad arguments to me...

Simple:
What those Monsters know is that "Boss Monster's souls persist after death out of sheer strenght, and Human Souls are as strong as every Monster Soul combined", which led them to the conclusion of "Human Souls persist after death out of sheer strenght".

Thanks to Undyne, we know that Determination doesn't help Monster Souls persist after death, therefore that "strenght" that lets Boss Monster's souls persist after death can't be Determination, and when they say that Human Souls persist after death out of sheer strenght they are just wrong.

That's not just a bad argument, that's an outright horrible argument. He's literally inserting his own Headcanon that the characters who've been studying this shit for God knows how long don't know what the **** they're talking about.

Ignoring that the monster race admited that the true nature of souls is still unknown, even after having been "studying this shit for God knows how long"

Anyway, I was requested to input here. Would anyone be willing to summarize what the points of contention are, please?

It seems like currently, the argument seems to be regarding 1 or more of the following:
1. Are "SOUL power" & "Determination" 1 & the same? Are the terms interchangeable only some of the time? All of the time?
2. Does SOUL power correspond to AP? Or is the "power" it grants supernatural abilities, like controlling the timeline & coming back from death?
3. How much SOUL power/Determination should a human be assumed to have?

Are there topics to the current debate I failed to list? Have I correctly assessed the current topics of debate?

No, that is what is most important right now.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

if think little more, Asgore potentially far stronger than Undying since he never gone in maximum and he is mentally broken...

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Simple:
What those Monsters know is that "Boss Monster's souls persist after death out of sheer strenght, and Human Souls are as strong as every Monster Soul combined", which led them to the conclusion of "Human Souls persist after death out of sheer strenght".

WHAT is that strength?

...maybe... this will answer..?

I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living. The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination." - Entry Number 5, True Lab

 

[Imaginym]

Ignoring that the monster race admited that the true nature of souls is still unknown, even after having been "studying this shit for God knows how long"

Apologies, but citation/scans, please?

No, that is what is most important right now.

Thank you for this response.

I also apologize, but @Rodri_"Dante" : It irks me somewhat that you seem to persistently misspell "strength" as "strenght". I hope this error is out of unawareness, rather than some deliberate reasoning to misspell it as such. Obviously, I also hope you do not misspell it as such in the future. Sorry for any bother.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

WHAT is that strength?

...maybe... this will answer..?

I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living. The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination." - Entry Number 5, True Lab

Ok, why doesn't Undyne's Soul persist after death when she has more determination that Asgore and Toriel?

The answer I got is "Toriel and Asgore have more determination, but Undyne uses more", but that only makes me question why are Asgore and Toriel stronger than base Undyne if they are using less determination than her.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Apologies, but citation/scans, please?

Snowdin Library.

I also apologize, but @Rodri_"Dante" : It irks me somewhat that you seem to persistently misspell "strength" as "strenght". I hope this error is out of unawareness, rather than some deliberate reasoning to misspell it as such. Obviously, I also hope you do not misspell it as such in the future. Sorry for any bother.

I misspell a lot, can't count how many times Ant had to correct the pages I edit.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Ok, why doesn't Undyne's Soul persist after death when she has more determination that Asgore and Toriel?

The answer I got is "Toriel and Asgore have more determination, but Undyne uses more", but that only makes me question why are Asgore and Toriel stronger than base Undyne if they are using less determination than her.

Kinda easy-to-answer question.

So, let's see.

Asgore and Toriel gave up unlike Undyne who's ******* melting, but probably they just got passively more DT than Undyne who's willing to live.

Undyne yes, got a lot of DT, but that's not enough to overpower Monster Bosses DT.

Monster Bosses IS the strongest monsters type ever, so even if Toriel&Asgore gaven up a lot of time ago, they still got some. Or maybe their body is badass strong.

Undyne... well, her Base is like REALLY willing to live, so she start melting, but her base DT is just lower than Asgore's.

 

[Imaginym]

Snowdin Library.

Thank you very much.
I assume you refer to the contents of this book:
"(Dark Green Book)Love, hope, compassion...This is what people say monster SOULs are made of.But the absolute nature of “SOUL” is unknown.After all, humans have proven their SOULs don’t need these things to exist."
But where in that book does whoever made said book say something to the effect of, as you said, "studying this shit for God knows how long"?

I misspell a lot, can't count how many times Ant had to correct the pages I edit.

Fair enough, no problem. Like I said, the misspelling was something that just irks me; Something personal, that I thus, do feel, as not entirely necessary (Just desired.) to bring up. The typos aren't THAT big a deal in the grand scope of things.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Thank you very much.
I assume you refer to the contents of this book:
"(Dark Green Book)Love, hope, compassion...This is what people say monster SOULs are made of.But the absolute nature of “SOUL” is unknown.After all, humans have proven their SOULs don’t need these things to exist."
But where in that book does whoever made said book say something to the effect of, as you said, "studying this shit for God knows how long"?

Agree.
I think it's not correct to even compare Scientific information agaisnt just a book if they talking about ONE thing.

And ya know, NO ONE ******* KNOWS WHAT IS DT EVEN IS, besides Narrator, Alphys, Flowey and that old scientist

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Asgore and Toriel gave up unlike Undyne who's ******* melting, but probably they just got passively more DT than Undyne who's willing to live.

So the argument is "passive DT" vs "active DT"?
How is that DT they passively have making them stronger than base Undyne, but not letting them refuse death? How can it do one thing but not the other?

Undyne yes, got a lot of DT, but that's not enough to overpower Monster Bosses DT.

Then why can't stronger monsters do what she can do?

Monster Bosses IS the strongest monsters type ever, so even if Toriel&Asgore gaven up a lot of time ago, they still got some.

Ok, I'm repeating the same question over and over, but if quantity x of a substance lets Character A do a thing, then why can't Character B do the same with even more?

Undyne... well, her Base is like REALLY willing to live, so she start melting, but her base DT is just lower than Asgore's.

[Insert the same question here]

But where in that book does whoever made said book say something to the effect of, as you said, "studying this shit for God knows how long"?

XSOULOFCINDERX said that, but what I'm getting at is, that even with all the information monster have on souls, they claim that the nature of souls it's still unknown.

So saying that thinking that monsters that were studying souls for so long can be wrong is just headcanon isn't an argument when even after so much research time public knowledge of the monsters says that they don't know everything.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Having read the thread I’ll have to disagree with the downgrades as well

 

[Deleted member 16409]

So the argument is "passive DT" vs "active DT"?
How is that DT they passively have making them stronger than base Undyne, but not letting them refuse death? How can it do one thing but not the other?

Then why can't stronger monsters do what she can do?

Ok, I'm repeating the same question over and over, but if quantity x of a substance lets Character A do a thing, then why can't Character B do the same with even more?

[Insert the same question here]

And now, say WHO TF is A and WHO TF is B.

XSOULOFCINDERX said that, but what I'm getting at is, that even with all the information monster have on souls, they claim that the nature of souls it's still unknown.

Do not compare simple monsters with scientists, for the Love of god.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

And now, say WHO TF is A and WHO TF is B.

A would be Undyne, B would be Asgore or Toriel

Do not compare simple monsters with scientists, for the Love of god.

Which ones are the "simple monsters" and which one are the "scientists"?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

A would be Undyne, B would be Asgore or Toriel

Because Character B is mentally broken and don't want to live, that why they doesn't resurrect or melt.

Asgore even got special cutscene when he impale himself with his trident.

Which ones are the "simple monsters" and which one are the "scientists"?

Scientist is... uh... that G man who I won't even talk about, I hate dialogues about HIM.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Because Character B is mentally broken and don't want to live, that why they doesn't resurrect or melt.

Asgore even got special cutscene when he impale himself with his trident.

So you're tellinng me that they have more determination than Undyne, but when they die they actively choose to not let determination do what it should do? Can monsters do that? Does that mean that the monsters that make up the amalgamates let themselves melt on propouse?

Scientist is... uh... that G man who I won't even talk about, I hate dialogues about HIM.

Don't know how he's related to anything we're talking about.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

So you're tellinng me that they have more determination than Undyne, but when they die they actively choose to not let determination do what it should do?

Yes, they simply don't want to live that much as her.

Can monsters do that?

Maybe.

Does that mean that the monsters that make up the amalgamates let themselves melt on propouse?

Imagine if you born with DT on purpose, your body is capable of holding your base DT.

And imagine in your was injected DT of more than 2000 monsters.

you'll get ******

Don't know how he's related to anything we're talking about.

Because it's his notes.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Yes, they simply don't want to live that much as her.

So then what happens with other monsters that are stronger or almost as strong as Undyne? Are they choosing to fue on propouse too? Why?

Because it's his notes.

The... Waterfall Glyphs?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Having read the thread I’ll have to disagree with the downgrades as well

Well. That's two staffs now, plus several knowledgeable members.
since the arguments are repeating themselves, what should we do?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

So then what happens with other monsters that are stronger or almost as strong as Undyne? Are they choosing to fue on propouse too? Why?

There's no monsters who's as strong as Undyne.
Except Asgore&Toriel.

They didn't even wanted to fight tho. They on bound to ******* kill themself and die.

So, if for example Toriel wanted to live and kill Frisk, she would massively overpower Undying since Undyne even in her strongest form isn't determined enough to even be close to Toriel's SOUL.

The... Waterfall Glyphs?

No, one of Alphys entries talked about DT notes.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

There's no monsters who's as strong as Undyne.
Except Asgore&Toriel.

There is.
Mettaton EX is barely behind her, and Mettaton NEO surpasses her.
...
Ok, it's just Mettaton.

No, one of Alphys entries talked about DT notes.

Ok, I was talking about the Glyphs and the Library texts, not about the lab entries.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

There is.
Mettaton EX is barely behind her, and Mettaton NEO surpasses her.
...
Ok, it's just Mettaton.

First.
IT'S NOT HIS BODY.
It's his robot body.

While Undyne is acting by herself.

And even thought, since every child could RESET, then they all 8-B, and they all gave up and fell from Asgore hands.

Asgore is far stronger than we know.

Ok, I was talking about the Glyphs and the Library texts, not about the lab entries.

And you compared Lab against Library.

It's like compare professional medic and random book.

And even thought, Lab entries answering what the power is in the SOULs.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

First.
IT'S NOT HIS BODY.
It's his robot body.

While Undyne is acting by herself.

It's still made of magic, it should still work under the same rules except it doesn't leave dust behind after dying

And even thought, since every child could RESET, then they all 8-B, and they all gave up and fell from Asgore hands.

So why were their souls 8-B after Death?

And you compared Lab against Library.

It's like compare professional medic and random book.

I didn't.

And even thought, Lab entries answering what the power is in the SOULs.

When you combine them with the Waterfall Glyphs and assume the Waterfall Glyphs are right.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

It's still made of magic, it should still work under the same rules except it doesn't leave dust behind after dying

Excuse me.
METAL and Magic.
It's invention, Alphys invention.

NEO doesn't surpass Undying btw.
Undying got 99 ATK while NEO got 90 ATK.

And NEO was BEST Alphys INVENTION.

So why were their souls 8-B after Death?

I'm talking about them when they was alive, when they was alive, they RESET and LOAD.

And still, that's da SOULs, they human ones, so it's easy to assume that they all still 8-B because lol, that's the Human SOULs.

I didn't.

You did.

When you combine them with the Waterfall Glyphs and assume the Waterfall Glyphs are right.

Because it's combinable since it doesn't say what is power of SOUL, and Library said that is unknown while Lab got information about that topic.

 

[DaReaperMan]

It's still made of magic, it should still work under the same rules except it doesn't leave dust behind after dying

What? Metatton is made of metal, least in the forms we know the stats of, also he has worse ATK than Undyne the Undining

 

[Deleted member 16409]

What? Metatton is made of metal, least in the forms we know the stats of, also he has worse ATK than Undyne the Undining

So, it's safe to assume that...
NEO<Undying<Asgore<<<<<Asgore in his prime

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Excuse me.
METAL and Magic.

Yes.

NEO doesn't surpass Undying btw.

Talking about base Undyne

Also nevermind, there's another monster stronger than Undyne:

Asriel after absorbing Chara's soul had enough power to wipe out a human village, despite clearly not being determined.

He was also incapable of refusing death, and if you consider DT to be Soul Power, then Undyne is somehow stronger than Asriel at that point in time.

I'm talking about them when they was alive, when they was alive, they RESET and LOAD.

And still, that's da SOULs, they human ones, so it's easy to assume that they all still 8-B because lol, that's the Human SOULs.

Yes, you said

And even thought, since every child could RESET, then they all 8-B, and they all gave up and fell from Asgore hands.

Meaning they were 8-B, stopped being 8-B before dying, and after dying their souls became 8-B again. Where did that level of determination go and why did it came back after they died

You did.

I was talking about the Waterfall Glyphs and the books in the Library. Which one was written by "simple monsters" and which one was written by "scientists"?

Because it's combinable since it doesn't say what is power of SOUL, and Library said that is unknown while Lab got information about that topic.

It is combinable when you give monsters the ability to ignore what their levels of determination should do before they die.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why are we assuming humans can use the full force of their soul power/DT, again? Cause if they could they'd probably have something like Low 2-C durability if Frisk isn't the outlier here. And that causes scaling problems out the wazooskie.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Yes.
Talking about base Undyne

Also nevermind, there's another monster stronger than Undyne:

Asriel after absorbing Chara's soul had enough power to wipe out a human village, despite clearly not being determined.

That's the Monster Boss, cap.

He was also incapable of refusing death, and if you consider DT to be Soul Power, then Undyne is somehow stronger than Asriel at that point in time.

Not Stronger, just far, far willing to live.
It's sure unknown did Chara either Asriel want to NOT die.

Yes, you said
Meaning they were 8-B, stopped being 8-B before dying, and after dying their souls became 8-B again. Where did that level of determination go and why did it came back after they died

I forgot to say "potentially" because Charmander said that the RESET is most strongest DT feat, so sure.
They gave up agaisnt Asgore, but it's sure known that Asgore does know about their Resets and Loads meaning that they all did a lot of tries to strike down Asgore.

And no, they didn't stopped being 8-B.
They ******* died.
But SOUL didn't.

I was talking about the Waterfall Glyphs and the books in the Library. Which one was written by "simple monsters" and which one was written by "scientists"?

Glyph was written by the FIRST monsters, like a millenia ago.

Do I have to say that is likely that monsters DIDN'T have that level of technology progress at that time?

And the books is written likely by not Gaster level scientists.

And c'mon, they doesn't have the information about DETERMINATION.

It is combinable when you give monsters the ability to ignore what their levels of determination should do before they die.

What. I didn't even understand you.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Why are we assuming humans can use the full force of their soul power/DT, again? Cause if they could they'd probably have something like Low 2-C durability if Frisk isn't the outlier here. And that causes scaling problems out the wazooskie.

Maybe Frisk is a little more powerful than previous ones.

And IF low 2-C durab would work on previous ones, then Asgore would be...

God.... HOLY SHIT

 

[Lou_change]

Didn't undyne use all her determination to maintain her body if it started failing to maintain the body the soul would go down with it another thing one of the early arguments was flowey lacks a soul and from what we know flowey is the only soulless thing in undertale with a mind and monsters have to manually absorb souls so the idea flowey lacking a soul makes him weaker makes no sense to be the default assumption when he is unique in this context. Going further it is stated 7 human souls would make a monster all powerful and flowey clearly believes that would also happen in his case and only absorbed the monsters because they provided equivalent power.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This back and forth is pointless. This was already rejected.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

This back and forth is pointless. This was already rejected.

Charmy, i think that the more problematic thing is Children being able to RESET.

And even tho, Dante doesn't seem to have a normal arguments...

By the way, didn't you unfollowed?

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

That's the Monster Boss, cap.

You didn't answer the question.

Not Stronger, just far, far willing to live.

Then she should have more determination than Asriel, and if DT is indeed Soul Power, then she's also stronger.

It's sure unknown did Chara either Asriel want to NOT die.

I didn't understand this, please rephrase

I forgot to say "potentially" because Charmander said that the RESET is most strongest DT feat, so sure.

Something 9-B Frisk can do.

They gave up agaisnt Asgore, but it's sure known that Asgore does know about their Resets and Loads meaning that they all did a lot of tries to strike down Asgore.

We don't know what the 6 humans did before dying, neither who they were killed by.

And no, they didn't stopped being 8-B.
They ******* died.

While being 8-B against a race that peaks at 9-A?
But SOUL didn't.

Glyph was written by the FIRST monsters, like a millenia ago.

Do I have to say that is likely that monsters DIDN'T have that level of technology progress at that time?

And the books is written likely by not Gaster level scientists.

And c'mon, they doesn't have the information about DETERMINATION.

Are the Glyphs reliable or not? Make up your mine.

What. I didn't even understand you.

That, in order for DT = Soul Power to make sense, You have to give any monster stronger than Undyne the ability to lose all of they determination exactly when they are about to die.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

You didn't answer the question.

What question.

Then she should have more determination than Asriel, and if DT is indeed Soul Power, then she's also stronger.

No, that doesn't work like that.
Chara is human.
Soul is 8-B.
8-B DT.
Asriel 8-B.
Asriel > Undyne at that point.

I didn't understand this, please rephrase

Like see.
It's important to know, did Asriel wanted to live very very much.
Like Undyne, in Neutral route she's unable to ressurect and dies.
In G Route, she need to realise, to be anime and etc stuff.
So that means, UNDYNE CAN'T transform into Undying because she just wants to live.
She need special events for that.

Something 9-B Frisk can do. We don't know what the 6 humans did before dying, neither who they were killed by.

The only thing we know that the Humans did reload in Ruins and never past Asgore.

While being 8-B against a race that peaks at 9-A?
But SOUL didn't.

Idk HOW did Asgore overridden every child while being 9-A. It's more seems like Asgore just stronger in previous times.

Are the Glyphs reliable or not? Make up your mine.

Glyphs? Not fully but reliable.
Library? Reliable but not about the SOUL topic, it's overriden by Gaster notes.

That, in order for DT = Soul Power to make sense, You have to give any monster stronger than Undyne the ability to lose all of they determination exactly when they are about to die.

Monster.
Nope, when they already dead.
And thought, it's important HOW did monster died. "Fallen" phase or killing?

And that won't work on Monster Bosses.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Again, this was rejected, and none of these arguments are new. Two Staff and several members disagreed with Dante's interpretation.

Close this already, geez

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

What question.

Asriel after absorbing Chara's soul had enough power to wipe out a human village, despite clearly not being determined.

Ok, nevermind, it was a problem, not a question.

No, that doesn't work like that.
Chara is human.
Soul is 8-B.
8-B DT.
Asriel 8-B.
Asriel > Undyne at that point.

Ok, why did Asriel have access to that 8-B power if he wasn't determined?

Like see.
It's important to know, did Asriel wanted to live very very much.
Like Undyne, in Neutral route she's unable to ressurect and dies.

Well, if Asriel had done that too at least, then I wouldn't have any problem. But that didn't happen.

The only thing we know that the Humans did reload in Ruins and never past Asgore.

Idk HOW did Asgore overridden every child while being 9-A. It's more seems like Asgore just stronger in previous times.

Or, hear me out, the 6 humans never had 8-B AP.

Glyphs? Not fully but reliable.

That's half of the justification for DT being Soul Power down the drain

Monster.
Nope, when they already dead.
And thought, it's important HOW did monster died. "Fallen" phase or killing?

And that won't work on Monster Bosses.

My headache is catching up to me because I don't understand what you're arguing for here.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Close this already, geez

Also, who are you talking to? The staff members that gave input went back to the shadow realm, and no one else can close this.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, who are you talking to? The staff members that gave input went back to the shadow realm, and no one else can close this.

Gee, if it only we had an administrator right here, that'd be handy.

Plus, you can request it to be closed in the all purpose thread.

 

[Lou_change]

Gee, if it only we had an administrator right here, that'd be handy.

Plus, you can request it to be closed in the all purpose thread.

I don't think he has the power to do that off the joke battles form