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Even if we assume he was only 4 while in his third form or suppressed final form, which was overpowered by base Goku, plug that more than 40x boost and he comfortably reaches 160.Kepekley23 said:
His rating makes sense to me.
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Frieza's 4-C rating.
- Thread starter Dzhindzholia
- Start date
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- cell dragon ball frieza majin buu
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His rating makes sense to me.
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@AKM
It's still upward scaling, and an absolutely massive upward scaling at that.
We don't do this for Terraria. We don't do this for StarCraft. We don't do this for any verse besides DB.
Edit: I mean't upward scaling.
It's still upward scaling, and an absolutely massive upward scaling at that.
We don't do this for Terraria. We don't do this for StarCraft. We don't do this for any verse besides DB.
Edit: I mean't upward scaling.
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Only verse I can think of is The God of High School, and even then, I don't approve of it.
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The only upward scaling here is assuming Frieza reached 4 from 1.7, after removing multiple limiters. That's not massive with a bolded font.Assaltwaffle said:
After that, the more than 40x is a legitimate boost.
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@Assalt
There are verses that allow it.
PMMM has 7-As scaling from 7-Bs.
Pacific Rim has characters reaching 7-B via upwards scaling from High 7-C (Absolutely casual and done by fooder, but still)
My Little Pony has High 4-Cs scaling upwards from 4-Cs.
Tatsumaki is Low 6-B because her feat is 95% of Low 6-B and was casual.
I know more examples but i think that you get the idea.
There are verses that allow it.
PMMM has 7-As scaling from 7-Bs.
Pacific Rim has characters reaching 7-B via upwards scaling from High 7-C (Absolutely casual and done by fooder, but still)
My Little Pony has High 4-Cs scaling upwards from 4-Cs.
Tatsumaki is Low 6-B because her feat is 95% of Low 6-B and was casual.
I know more examples but i think that you get the idea.
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IIRC, his third Form is actually twice as powerful as his third form. Kaizentu PL's only say 1.5x, but those are never reliable. But recall Frieza stated each of his 2nd and 3rd forms to be twice his previous forms. Which would be 3.4 or 6.8 Tenatons respectively or 4 and 8 looking at kep's suggestion. Base Goku is obviously stronger than 3rd Form Frieza, but to an unknown extent. Kaioken times 20 Goku was equal to 50% Frieza's final form; and Super Saiyan Goku was superior to 100% Frieza; which would be 136 and 272 Tenatons respectively; or Small Star level+ and Star level+.
Though, new tiering system would make it Dwarf Star level for 1st form, higher up Dwarf Star level for 2nd form, Dwarf Star level+ for 3rd form, and then Star level for Final form 50% to 100% respectively.
Though, new tiering system would make it Dwarf Star level for 1st form, higher up Dwarf Star level for 2nd form, Dwarf Star level+ for 3rd form, and then Star level for Final form 50% to 100% respectively.
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Just to clarify, my view of the Dragon Ball scaling is basically that Kavpeny made an estimation of where to place the characters between 1st form Frieza and Super Perfect Cell, and that giving all of of these characters "At least High 5-A" ratings seems inappropriate.
It is basically an "in lack of better options" scaling.
That said, we should preferably get rid of the related "+" signs not based on any actual calculations.
It is basically an "in lack of better options" scaling.
That said, we should preferably get rid of the related "+" signs not based on any actual calculations.
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I agree with that. The At least High 5-A for everyone seems really redundant and very vague, so I mostly prefer the way they are now except for some "+" sign removals. Though, the fact that Super Perfect Cell is no longer baseline 4-B also makes it a bit harder to estimate his previous form and Cell saga Goku.
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At least high5A seems weird for most of the people only because DBZ characters are star level for very long time,people just got used to it.
Frieza and everyone who scales from him should be small star level,not even baseline Star Level.
And i don't think we should bring Perfect Cell into this and backwards scaling from him,it is not right and correct,he will be affected too if Frieza gets downgraded.
Imo,characters can not just jump from high5A to 4-C or high4-C just because they get stronger and use multipliers,when they don't have any feat that puts them even close to that level.We do the same for every verse.
Frieza and everyone who scales from him should be small star level,not even baseline Star Level.
And i don't think we should bring Perfect Cell into this and backwards scaling from him,it is not right and correct,he will be affected too if Frieza gets downgraded.
Imo,characters can not just jump from high5A to 4-C or high4-C just because they get stronger and use multipliers,when they don't have any feat that puts them even close to that level.We do the same for every verse.
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Well, we do use canon multipliers (as in power increase or boosts) when they are not contradicted in the show. And I don't see any problem with it.Dzhindzholia said:
When the show tells us that character A is X times stronger than before, we can't just outright dismiss it because the writer got lazy and didn't blow something up or decided to stick with his own way of storytelling
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"When the show tells us that character A is X times stronger than before, we can't just outright dismiss it because the writer got lazy and didn't blow something up or decided to stick with his own way of storytelling"
No feats on such level,no upgrades.There is a gap between Frieza's feat and baseline star level.
No feats on such level,no upgrades.There is a gap between Frieza's feat and baseline star level.
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While the upscaling/downscaling methods used are obviously imperfect, IMO that shouldn't, in and of itself, be an argument against the result especially given that the logic of power escalation in Toriyama's original manga is pretty clear and well understood.
IMO something like "At least 5-A, likely Low 4-C to 4-C" and "At least 5-A, likely 4-C to High 4-C" would be more accurate and would address the issue but I also don't think that distinction is consequential because how their AP would be treated in battles most likely wouldn't change at all.
As an aside, I think it'd trigger a series of Perfect Cell vs (insert relatively unhaxxed 5-A here) threads lool.
IMO something like "At least 5-A, likely Low 4-C to 4-C" and "At least 5-A, likely 4-C to High 4-C" would be more accurate and would address the issue but I also don't think that distinction is consequential because how their AP would be treated in battles most likely wouldn't change at all.
As an aside, I think it'd trigger a series of Perfect Cell vs (insert relatively unhaxxed 5-A here) threads lool.
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Not a big fan of gaps like that, and considering that 100% really shouldn't be any weaker than 40x his 3rd form, as well as each of his previous forms roughly 2x stronger than last, 160x would still be in the Star level range. I also vaguely recall Frieza mentioning that his 2nd form was less than 1% of his power. We don't use PL's from guidebooks; with the exception that Kaizenshu can be used to determine A > B > C with each ">" being an unknown number, but the actually basic math is not how it works.
Also quite positive most of the Android saga characters should remain Large Star level at the very least. I personally like Dark649's method of dividing an AP feat by half and adding an at least to it, if a character is weaker but not overwhelmingly weaker; like he did with the Mortal Kombat cast, or what he did with the Fire Emblem 7 protagonists. But I don't know many Dragon Ball characters like that aside from maybe Buu saga Gohan, Cell saga Goku, SSJ1 Teen Gohan, and Perfect Cell (Not SPC).
Also quite positive most of the Android saga characters should remain Large Star level at the very least. I personally like Dark649's method of dividing an AP feat by half and adding an at least to it, if a character is weaker but not overwhelmingly weaker; like he did with the Mortal Kombat cast, or what he did with the Fire Emblem 7 protagonists. But I don't know many Dragon Ball characters like that aside from maybe Buu saga Gohan, Cell saga Goku, SSJ1 Teen Gohan, and Perfect Cell (Not SPC).
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> also vaguely recall Frieza mentioning that his 2nd form was less than 1% of his power.
FUNimation only
FUNimation only
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Okay, nevermind about that, but the ones I mentioned prior to that still seems reasonable.
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There's quite an immense amount of room for Freeza to scale below 4-C, considering how non-linear power levels really are. Piccolo, at a power level of 400, is orders of magnitude above Krillin and the others at the beginning of Z despite them having power levels all around 180 and 200. Kami implies that Tien, Krillin and Yamcha only surpassed him after their training for the Saiyans, which in turn leads us to believe that a 2x increase in power level can be easily insurmountably more than a mere "5x" increase.
The opposite is just as true by any means.
The opposite is just as true by any means.
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I'm well aware of that, but it didn't come from PL's; not using that, but just statements about 2nd forms and 3rd forms being stronger than previous respectively. Kaioken being equal to 50% and Super Saiyan Goku being superior to 100% are the biggest jumps yes.
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Most of your statements are filler-only. 3rd Form Freeza never said he was twice as strong as before in the manga.
Considering 20% is often enough to make someone "considerably stronger" than their opponent on DBZ:
1.7+20% puts 2nd Form Freeza at ~2.04.
His third form would then be in the ~2.5 range.
His True Form would be 3.
40*3 = 120 tenatons, still Low 4-C
Considering 20% is often enough to make someone "considerably stronger" than their opponent on DBZ:
1.7+20% puts 2nd Form Freeza at ~2.04.
His third form would then be in the ~2.5 range.
His True Form would be 3.
40*3 = 120 tenatons, still Low 4-C
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Did you put the kaio Ken yet @kepe?
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I guess that's fair enough, but Android saga characters would still range from 4-C to High 4-C?
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>Considering 20% is often enough to make someone "considerably stronger" than their opponent on DBZ:
Ya have a source? Also did any user actually check the manga for quick statements made.
Ya have a source? Also did any user actually check the manga for quick statements made.
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@JMAN Requiem
Goku believed Vegeta was unbeatable even with the KKx2
Vegeta one-shotted Dodoria
Vegeta was easily demolishing Base Zarbon
Suppressed Cell, who was only slightly stronger than FPSSj Goku, was two steps above him and was easily winning their bout. FPSSj Gohan considers Goku's power nothing special and Cell, without powering up, managed to match him toe to toe.
@SD
Yes I did
Goku believed Vegeta was unbeatable even with the KKx2
Vegeta one-shotted Dodoria
Vegeta was easily demolishing Base Zarbon
Suppressed Cell, who was only slightly stronger than FPSSj Goku, was two steps above him and was easily winning their bout. FPSSj Gohan considers Goku's power nothing special and Cell, without powering up, managed to match him toe to toe.
@SD
Yes I did
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Except somehow. In the thread ya are posting on. That was proven false.
There is being conservative dark and downplaying. Conservative is actually doing low balls that make sense although a low not even 2x on a character that can with a fraction of effort cave. Also kaioken. Then factoring the fact kaioken was weak from a cooperative point.
Also had a user checked the manga yet as the wiki going off memory and not fact checking may end bad.
There is being conservative dark and downplaying. Conservative is actually doing low balls that make sense although a low not even 2x on a character that can with a fraction of effort cave. Also kaioken. Then factoring the fact kaioken was weak from a cooperative point.
Also had a user checked the manga yet as the wiki going off memory and not fact checking may end bad.
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Yeah, proof that PL's are inconsistent and nonlinear, Goku Vs Vegeta, Over 16000 Vs 18000 = stomp, but Over 24,000 Vs 18,000 = even match.
Vegeta Vs Dodoria and Zarbon, 22,000 Vs 24,000 and 23,000 Vs 24,000 = Stomp, but Frieze fights 3,000,000 Vs held back 60,000,000 =/= stomp. Last one probably a bad example though.
Vegeta Vs Dodoria and Zarbon, 22,000 Vs 24,000 and 23,000 Vs 24,000 = Stomp, but Frieze fights 3,000,000 Vs held back 60,000,000 =/= stomp. Last one probably a bad example though.
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I can assure you that absolutely everything I've said has roots on the Dragon Ball manga. Nothing here is going off of memory alone.
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Me and Kep very well know Dragon Ball, but i do not appreacciate your behaviour J-Man, which you show in every single thread you take part. You should be more reasonable to other users and not to try to be hostile if other users says a different opinion, which you dislike.
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Meant quotes obviousky.
Also ya have a source on a not even a quarter canonically confirmed boost stomping a opponent not even 25 percent weaker.
Also ya have a source on a not even a quarter canonically confirmed boost stomping a opponent not even 25 percent weaker.
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What? im not being hostile.Dark649 said:
Are ya saying minimal effort and not fact checking is fine because ya and kep are dbz experts? Ya cool and so is kep but (excluding the fact that hostility was not my goal) Im telling ya how it is. Im not being hostile. Im being blunt. Ya want an example? Go look at a few posts from matthew.
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Yeah. Third form wouldnt be above low 4-C. 4-C would come after the kaioken boosts and 100 percent.Dark649 said:
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Bluntness is still moderate hostility, and admittedly, Matt does have a tendency to say some rather blunt choice of words; though he admit to it and apologises at times also. Still, "Wank" and "Downplay" and "Biased" are very strong words. One should not call other uses those and or accuse other users just because their opinions differ greatly.
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I fact check everything I say in a DB debate, my dude.
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Yeah. Agreed. (Although I'm quoting kep, who said that being blunt was fine when matt did the same thing.) Of course off topic. My bad.
Ya do not have agree with me but at least factor kaioken.
Ya do not have agree with me but at least factor kaioken.
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