Frieza's 4-C rating.

[ByAsura]

Frieza tried at least enough to overpower Kaioken x10 Goku. But then again, this supports your point in general about taking hits from much more powerful (linearly, not PLs) opponents. Also, Frieza apparently powered up to 70%, i'll need a scan though.

Now for my general point: The fight between Goku and Vegeta supports the point that one shotting is much higher. Vegeta withstood Goku's Kamehameha x4, and his Galick Gun as well, though the latter was only briefly with the kamehameha.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Yeah. Which ya cant do with a boost of 0 3.

Citation needed.

> No. A Stomping would have a factor of lethality. Which freeza proved he could while doing one move while exerting no effort man.

False. Stomps are simply when the opponent gets their ass handed to them with no effort.

> 50 freeza didnt even try. When he did piccolo bit the dust.

Didn't try.

Goku literally got up easily after this. As you said, fact check before saying something with certainty.

> No im saying its litterally impossible. Feats alone disprove what ya claim.

Citation needed

 

[Kepekley23]

> Also, Frieza apparently powered up to 70%, i'll need a scan though.

This was against Super Saiyan Goku.

 

[ByAsura]

I always thought it was after Goku used the Kaioken x20.

 

[FlowSenpai]

Just here to see where this goes XD

 

[Kepekley23]

Nope. It was when he was fighting Super Saiyan Goku. Right after he threw Goku into the sea.

 

[ByAsura]

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Have ya seen a being get destroyed from a 0.3 boost. Can ya punch a character 0.3 weaker and the character bites the dust?. If so then vs threads are gonna change and AP stomps become miniscule number wise man.

Maybe paraphrasing a stomp. Which ultimately leads to what exactly? Probably death. Which freeza does while doing almost no effort.

>Easily.

How about him ohkoing piccolo (equal with second form. Almost vaporized Gohan (equal with piccolo at least) And manhandled vegeta and ohkoed vegeta. All while being o.25 percent more powerful? Does that make vegeta only 0.010 more powerful than gohan and piccolo then?.

 

[Kepekley23]

< Have ya seen a being get destroyed from a 0.3 boost. Can ya punch a character 0.3 weaker and the character bites the dust?. If so then vs threads are gonna change and AP stomps become miniscule number wise man.

What do AP stomps on VSBW have anything to do with Dragon Ball?

Without power levels, your argument is nothing but you denying it by saying it's "impossible" without literally any elaboration.

And, eve with power levels, you still get several examples against it.

> Maybe paraphrasing a stomp. Which ultimately leads to what exactly? Probably death. Which freeza does while doing almost no effort.

The Freeza who is unable to one shot Base Goku but able to smash KKx20 Goku out of his Kaioken.

Also, what 3rd Form Freeza did to Piccolo was less impressive than what Monster Zarbon did to Vegeta in their first fight.

> How about him ohkoing piccolo (equal with second form. Almost vaporized Gohan (equal with piccolo at least) And manhandled vegeta and ohkoed vegeta. All while being o.25 percent more powerful? Does that make vegeta only 0.010 more powerful than gohan and piccolo then?.

No. Vegeta is stronger than Third Form Freeza, who should be roughly 25% above Piccolo, thus making him considerably stronger - easily 30% above FP Piccolo. Perfectly in line with what we see on screen.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Gotta agree with Kep here. This is just how some of this works in DB.

 

[PaChi2]

So.

Any consensus?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

tl;dr

Dragon Ball gives a big **** you to vs debate "standards".

 

[Akreious]

Yeah basically that. We apply our standards one way, Dragon Ball ***** it. We apply another variation of that standard, Dragon Ball still ***** it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's despite the fact that someone said Dragon Ball was one of the simpler verses to determine Power scaling


Serious?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Medeus

Oooh that snark tho.

It is simple.

Character A beats Character B. Character A stomps Character B. Simply put, no value is given on how much you need to stomp someone. We shouldn't try to assume or make up numbers in order to make a pretty simple scaling chain complicated. From what I see, the main issue is frankly, us trying to put a numerical value on something pretty non linear and is highly subject to change within the exact same narrative.

 

[PaChi2]

Imagine if you had to give a numerical value to the 2-A powerscaling in digimon, tho.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know, And that wasn't a snark, just a running joke Yes, Dragon Ball is linear with ABC logic, simply saying exact AP ratings are what's complicated.

 

[Kepekley23]

From what I see, the main issue is frankly, us trying to put a numerical value on something pretty non linear and is highly subject to change within the exact same narrative.

This, right here.

 

[Antvasima]

So how should we try to solve this problem then?

 

[Akreious]

I... don't think we can? Like a lot of other DB discussions, it depends on how you look at the problem. As long as multiple angles of perspectives are all logically sound compared to eachother, We can't really draw a conclusion? Doesn't help that DB as awhole says "**** standard scaling" with a 0.2 difference in strength allowing someone to stomp another when later this is directly contradicted and needs something like 2x stronger

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that we should probably continue to go with estimations in-between Frieza and Cell then, in lack of better options, but the "+" signs seem inappropriate, as there are no calculations to base them on.

 

[ByAsura]

I think we should keep the plus signs for Goku and Gohan's Super Saiyan forms when they fought Cell, and, obviously, Cell himself.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Considering Cell is 1 Kilofoe now, being have as strong or even 40x weaker would make them more so 4-B now. I'm neutral either way regardless of "+" sign removals or 4-B upgrades, but leaning towards keeping them the sameish.

 

[Overlord775]

i agree with Kep too

 

[AKM sama]

I thought we don't use power levels to quantify how strong a character is because of how inconsistent they are, except for the A>B>C logic. Why am I seeing a lot of PL debate all of a sudden?

1.7+20% puts 2nd Form Freeza at ~2.04.

But since we were on the subject, a minor nitpick though. 2nd Form Freeza went over 1 million from just 530,000. That's far more than 20% increase (almost 2x) even if we assume PL are linear, which obviously they are not.

Anyway, I think Freeza's current rating makes the most sense for reasons I already mentioned long before (except for the '+' signs).

 

[Kepekley23]

If PLs are not linear, that isn't an argument.

I disagree with you.

 

[Kepekley23]

I... don't think we can? Like a lot of other DB discussions, it depends on how you look at the problem. As long as multiple angles of perspectives are all logically sound compared to eachother, We can't really draw a conclusion? Doesn't help that DB as awhole says "**** standard scaling" with a 0.2 difference in strength allowing someone to stomp another when later this is directly contradicted and needs something like 2x stronger

Evidence?

 

[Kaltias]

Well, I think that we should probably continue to go with estimations in-between Frieza and Cell then, in lack of better options, but the "+" signs seem inappropriate, as there are no calculations to base them on.

I'll be blunt, it's a method that honesty doesn't make sense.

If they reach Low 4-C/4-C/High 4-C etc via upscaling, I can live with it.

But backwards scaling when the gap between characters is absolutely massive doesn't make sense.

It's like me making magical girls in PMMM Low 5-B because a top tier who dwarfs them immensely is 5-B. It's arbitrary and baseless

Scaling via "not that far behind" is acceptable but it's case by case.

Scaling via "massively weaker but backwards scaling because reasons" isn't acceptable at all

 

[Antvasima]

@Kaltias

Okay. So do you have any suggestions for how we should rescale them?

 

[Kepekley23]

Scale upwards from their previous rating.

 

[Kaltias]

^

 

[Overlord775]

^

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but we would still need to figure out which characters that should get what statistics.

 

[AKM sama]

If PLs are not linear, that isn't an argument.

You brought them up, I didn't.

 

[Kepekley23]

Freeza: Low 4-C

Vegeta, Piccolo, Trunks and Goku (Android Saga): 4-C.

Piccolo fusing with Kami grants him twice his strength according to Guru, so Imperfect Cell (after absorbing Ginger Town) and Android 16 become High 4-C.

Everyone stagnates after that, with FPSSj Gohan and Goku gaining "At least High 4-C, possibly 4-B", and SSj2 Gohan getting 4-B

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Pretty sure SSJ2 Gohan is already 4-B.

 

[Kepekley23]

You got it.

 

[Antvasima]

Given that Dragon Ball is fairly controversial, perhaps it would be best to start a highlighted staff only thread for rescaling the characters?

 

[AKM sama]

I still advocate for 4-C 100% Frieza.

His feat yielded 1.7 tenatons, casual or not, he obvioulsy did not put all of his power into that blast. He transformed 3 times after that. And to think he did not even get a 2.2x boost after transforming thrice, is being very unrealistic imo, given the long chain of scaling. He should at least be Likely 4-C in his 100% form.

And why would Grade 4 Goku and Gohan be Possibly 4-B? Wouldn't that be backward scaling which Kaltias and you were against?

 

[Kepekley23]

I've already detailed how he can be lower than 4-C. There's a lot of room for it.

Maybe, maybe not. Considering Cell is over 40 times above the baseline now. That'll be discussed later.