Frieza Saga Goku FTL Citation

[Antoniofer]

Welo, I say that Piccolo's feat is an outlier not only cuz is slow, if not that characters has made slower feats with more effort: Goku pushing himself to fly to get into the Saiyans, the troop unable to evade Frieza attacks (including Bardock) that are at least considerable stronger than Piccolo Saiyan Saga self, several instance in Namek Saga when people push themself to get in time (I could confuse it with the anime tho), and "exagerating", that time in Buu Saga when Piccolo get tired to develop speed less than 1\3 of SS Gotenks, that is Sub-Reletivitic (high-balling using questionable translation).

 

[Firestorm808]

^We're talking about combat speed and not travel speed. That's why it takes hours for people to fly to places on Namek.

 

[Antoniofer]

And still entire DBS is scaled by travel speed from two individuals; anyway, it takes an amount of ki to do those kind of speeds, Piccolo showed it in Buu Saga, so using it in combat should still consume similar ki supply.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What? I see Dark has changed it, Dark this is the second time you have done this, you can't just make these major changes without discussion.

This is completely wrong.

 

[AKM sama]

> "Goku pushing himself to fly to get into the Saiyans"

This should be considered an outlier as it is on par with Tao PaiPai's feat from og DB. However one could still argue that Goku was trying to save stamina for the fight.


> "the troop unable to evade Frieza attacks (including Bardock)"

Simply because the troop's speed < Frieza's attack speed.


> "several instance in Namek Saga when people push themself to get in time"

You mean the time when they had to be suppressed so no one can sense them on their scouters or oherwise.


> "that time in Buu Saga when Piccolo get tired to develop speed less than 1\3 of SS Gotenks"

That feat has so many questionable aspects. There is Gotenks statement who says "a few dozens times" and "even took a nap". The timeframe for that feat is pure guess.


About scaling combat speed from travel speed, we know combat speed in DB > travel speed. So one can safely say that the character's combat speed should at least be equal to their travel speed. But you can't put a limit to a character's combat speed on the basis of his travel speed.

 

[AKM sama]

> 2017, 2 years into DBS and here I thought DBZ speed controversy will finally die

looks like it will still go on for ages.

 

[PaChi2]

Does anybody know where is the thread where the downgrade was discussed? I'd like to read it.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think there is a separate thread. If there is, then this is it lol

 

[Antoniofer]

If soldiers speed is slower than Frieza's one, then is Piccolo's is far slower than even that. Tao Pai Pai doesn't use his speed directly, if not his strength, he can't perform something like that by his own, and we doesn't scale throwing speed.

The Gotenks one could not have an exact timeframe, but sice the fusion last 30 min, and Piccolo say that it only left less than 1 min, it means that it tooks ~29 min to Piccolo to do what Gotenks did, circle the Earth dozens of times (if that translation is the correct one, someone should revise that); I nap takes around 20 min, so most likely it tooks Gotenks ~9 min to do so.

 

[AKM sama]

Tao threw the pillar.

Then he jumped on the moving pillar himself.

Tao was faster than pillar.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Super has a ton of Massively FTL+ feats and nobody uses the Travel Speed argument anymore. Speeds are staying as they are.

 

[AKM sama]

Super has a ton of Massively FTL+ feats and nobody uses the Travel Speed argument anymore. Speeds are staying as they are.

Do you mean base, kaiokenx20, ssj1, ssj2, ssj3 are all going to stay relativistic to rel+?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, of course not. Goku is FTL since using Kaioken x20.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Thers still that mhs+ speed feat i calced for piccolo that all but 2 calc members disagree with.

 

[ProspectX]

Hmm...who made the changes of Son Goku's profile?

 

[Dark649]

Me because i was asked to since the FTL+ ratings were because of a debunked calc, so these speeds i placed are placeholders.

 

[Amexim]

And why haven't they been restored to what it was before? @Firestorm was using the idea I had all along, just without the justification of using Goku's base speed and the Kaioken multiplier, etc. There's airing on the side of caution, and then there's downplay. I'd like to think this is a combination of both, with the latter being unintentional. The problem is, we don't have any solid FTL justification in the form of a feat, just scaling. But if we're going to use the Kaioken Multiplier, we can use PLs as if they were linear, and multiply Goku's speed by whatever we need to make Goku's PL at that level. Power levels aren't linear, true. But the way they aren't linear is actually pointing towards making these calcs low-end. Unless we want to throw the multiplier away completely. Because these profiles assume that base Goku in the namek Saga is just as fast as he was against Nappa. Which is obviously false...

 

[ProspectX]

That's the pretty massive change, at least make a proper discussion.

 

[Dark649]

And why haven't they been restored to what it was before?

Because power levels are inconsistent in some regards, but someone must write the exact and linear speed boost of the Kaioken. Once a proper speed table of it will be shown, then they can be upgraded.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Kaioken isn't though.

 

[Dark649]

If Matthew writes and explains the Kaioken speed boosts basing on the level, then a valid reason to upgrade them will be posted and applied.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Its explcitly noted, to multiply speed and power in a linear fashion.

 

[FTW395]

Indeed, it's pretty simple kaio ken x2 = 2x in speed.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

I thought we've always accepted Kaioken multipliers? Why the sudden change?

Chase if we use KK, which has been displayed as amping all stats (speed, strength, power output, etc) and we're using the 0.16c as his base speed, then

0.16cx 20 = 3.2c

Super Saiyan should be leagues above that since SSJ > KK

 

[Amexim]

Yeah, and since Kaioken increases both stats and power level linearly, it only makes sense to say that, hypothetically:

Goku's PL against Vegeta: 8,000. Kaioken x2 is 16,000, and he's .04c at 16,000.

So if Goku's base form was 16,000 w/o Kaioken, wouldn't he be .04c at base?

PLs aren't consistent-- and neither is this Scaling. We know he's stronger and faster than against Raditz, we even have an actual number-- but we downplay/low-ball to assume that Goku is as fast as he was in the Saiyan Saga as he is in the Namek Saga? How is that consistent with the series? Not only that, but the way PL's are inconsistent is actually beneficial. As I said before, PLs with their relating AP seem to grow exponentially. So all of this would get us low-balls.

Dragon Ball itself is inconsistent in speed, which is true. But, as others have said, if we're going to power scale, we should do it right. The PL thing would only apply until the Frieza Saga (since apparently Base Goku is still not able to fight Final Form Frieza in his base anyway).

Also, Combat Speed. Everyone assumes that Combat Speed means that, even though Goku can't even fly around the world at anything faster than Mach 7, he can run at Sub-relativistic speeds as long as he is fighting.

Lemme say that again. In many people's heads, Combat Speed means that a character who can't outrun a car in the story can run FTL when he's fighting. Can Run FTL as long as it's not a long distance. Which doesn't follow any real life concept of movement or running.

This is like saying that Usain Bolt would lose in a race across a Boxing Ring against Bruce Lee, because apparently, as long as it's not bigger than 50 ft, Bruce Lee can run faster than Usain Bolt. No. Just no. Combat Speed means how fast one can throw a punch or kick or fire a blast or some shit. Nothing about moving any distance at all, no matter how short.

When Usain Bolt and fast characters run using "Travel Speed", they're either going at full sprint (meaning at their max speed possible) or pacing themselves (reducing their speed to conserve stamina). This "Short Burst" nonsense makes no sense unless it's a specific power-- Usain Bolt doesn't move at Subsonic speeds in short bursts when he wants to move at max speed to get to the bathroom because he has diarrhea-- his max speed can only be reached when he does a full sprint. "Short Burst" would only mean "Max speed Sprint without concern for Stamina", which would also translate to Travel Speed! God...

 

[Amexim]

And we know he's gotten a stronger base form since then. Base Namek Goku post Training was 90,000, since using Kaioken x2 gave him 180,000. That would mean that he would be equal to Saiyan Saga Goku using the Kaioken x11.25, and we could multiply whatever number his speed is at by 11.25 to get the speed of his base. Because we only know what his speed stats are in his higher forms on his profile. We need to know what the forms are separately.

 

[Dark649]

I thought we've always accepted Kaioken multipliers? Why the sudden change?

Because we need a reasonable scale of the speed boosts of the Kaioken.

 

[FTW395]

What's unreasonable about the lore behind the Kaio Ken given by the show?

 

[Amexim]

This again?

No. I already explained my position a thousand times, just haven't had the time to implement the changes.

Freeza has a Relativistic feat in his First Form. Through Goku's Kaioken x20, they become FTL.

Matt agrees big dog. Kaioken is linear.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

If I go grab a panel that has Goku saying the Kaioken multiplies speed and is linear will that do?

 

[Dark649]

I said there is nothing wrong about the lore of the kaioken, we need a speed scale of the speed boosts from the Kaioken grades.

 

[Amexim]

No, of course not. Goku is FTL since using Kaioken x20.

In response to being asked about Relativistic Goku. Celestial agrees too. What's going on?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Uh, dude.

Kaiokenx2 is 2 times, kaiokenx 10 is 10 times, Kaioken x 20 is 20 times.

 

[Dark649]

Uh, dude.
Kaiokenx2 is 2 times, kaiokenx 10 is 10 times, Kaioken x 20 is 20 times.

In relation to his speed scaling from the Piccolo calc and later jumps in speed normally.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

We don't know, but simply taking the death ball speed or piccolo , slapping 20x on it gets FTL. That's fact.

 

[FTW395]

I'm not following you here, as J-Man and others have said. The multiplication Kaio-Ken is used with multiplies those stats by the same number. I.e. kaio ken x2 = all stats x2, kaio ken x10 = all stats x10. What's bad about using this already established speed scale for Kaio Ken?

 

[Dark649]

I also meant the exact grade of speeds on the other speed jumps Goku can do in his normal speed with Kaioken in the later sagas since his normal speed much increased since his Base Frieza saga self.

 

[Amexim]

....

.02c x KK4 is .08c.

Assuming now that Goku's base is equal to KK4 in Namek saga, which it was much greater than-- .08c kkx20= 1.6c. Making him FTL.

It's not that hard. Can you explain more clearly why you can't accept this, or are you not understanding what we're saying?

 

[Dark649]

I can except this, but i already explained the reason in prior comments.

 

[FTW395]

Yet nobody understands your reasoning. Kaio Ken times x, multiplies the speed by x. That's it, nothing more to it.