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Frieza Saga Goku FTL Citation

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This again?

No. I already explained my position a thousand times, just haven't had the time to implement the changes.

Freeza has a Relativistic feat in his First Form. Through Goku's Kaioken x20, they become FTL.
 
Okay. I would appreciate if you could apply this at some point, in order to avoid future misunderstandings.
 
Regardless, the ones below Frieza level still have unknown speed since the Piccolo one still being an outlier as far I known (the difference between those two calcs is pretty small, and both are casual).
 
Why is Piccolo's feat considered an outlier? Just curious, because I don't think we should scale it from original DB due to reasons which I already stated.


"because the reasoning for it being outlier is that it doesn't agree with scaling from original Dragon Ball. But we all agree that DBZ gave huge power boosts to almost all characters and it should apply to speed too, as ki is the source for both power and speed"
 
It isn't an outlier. DBZ has a massive, massive boost from the Piccolo Junior Arc.

High 6-C to Low 5-B.

Speed being boosted that much is fine likewise.
 
No other speed feat in DBZ is quantifiable tho. They can't be quantified accurately, so how will they surpass it? This one is the closest we've got in terms of quantification.
 
The real cal howard said:
It's an outlier because no other feat surpasses it, and it comes from a BoS character.
Click to expand...
A lot of other verses does the same, DBZ should not be considered as an exception.
 
The real cal howard said:
It's an outlier because no other feat surpasses it, and it comes from a BoS character.
Click to expand...
Piccolo Jr. was Island level and Hypersonic+

After 5 years of training he became Small Planet level. It is totally acceptable for his speed to have increased just as much.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It isn't an outlier. DBZ has a massive, massive boost from the Piccolo Junior Arc.

High 6-C to Low 5-B.

Speed being boosted that much is fine likewise.
Click to expand...
This sums up my thoughts.
 
Wasn't the relativistic Frieza feat him launching a death ball at Planet Vegeta or something? Why are we still down playing DBZ to barely SoL. I thought we moved past Dyspo.
 
Noticed Circular Scaling in the profiles. Was looking for the Frieza feat. Can't find it. Just links me to Vegeta, who scales to Goku. Then I looked for Relativistic+ justification, who links me to cell, who links me to Frieza, who links me to Goku, who links me to Raditz, who links me to Piccolo. What I'm saying is, Radical's calc for Frieza should be on Frieza's page as well, instead of just on Piccolo's page.

Also, since Kaioken increases your PL as well as all your stats in a clear, clean cut multiplier, why can't we use that as justification for speed increases as Goku's power level goes up until Frieza's stated 1,000,000. Basically, if Goku's base speed is Sub-Rel, whatever number it is, we divide it by 90,000-- Goku's power level at the Frieza Saga against Ginyu-- and we multiply Goku's Sub-Rel number by whatever the result is to get Goku's Speed at that point in the story, and then scale from there. Yes, PL's don't normally go in linear fashion. But Goku's pl does, apparently, since Kaioken increases his PL and his Speed in the same multiplicative way. We don't have to assume what other people's speeds are by using their number, but we can use Goku as a benchmark, or scale Goku's speed alone from the Kaioken to see how fast he is/would be at 1,000,000 or 3,000,000-- whichever you prefer-- and then scale from the mathmatical result.

Again, not using power levels as an indicator of all characters speeds, just using Goku's PL to gauge Goku's future speeds up to the point where we stop getting Canon PLs, then scaling characters off the result. Is likely gonna be a no, but I just wanted to put it out there. I'll use it myself on a personal tip anyway, so...
 
I don't understand, if frieza is relativistic in his first form, and goku is much faster than him, using the kaioken x20 goku is at least faster than light.
 
Yeah. And if Goku is .02 c, then (lowballing .02 c to 8,000) he's 2.5 times FTL at most. But that's calc stacking...? Idk, because that's hypothetical Kaioken times 125 used to get to Second Form Frieza's PL of 1 million from 8,000-- a x125 difference-- and then 2.5 times 3 is 7.5, which is a high ball using the Daizenshu's 3 million. Is this calc stacking? Because all I'm doing is multiplying the PL by whatever times it takes for the Kaioken to reach that number, and doing the same to the Speed. Strength is a completely different story though. We use Kaioken in the same way. Goku's base form should be at least equal to Second Form Frieza in PL, meaning whatever Goku's speed is (.02c) is multiplied by the multiplicative difference between 1,000,000/8,000. That's 125. So Kaioken x 125 is 2.5 c, or FTL...?
 
So we gonna downgrade DBZ speed just because of the lack of quantifiable feats when being FTL on Namek completely agrees with scaling and multipliers?
 
The problem here is that we have come in to a point were calcs. > feats and we dont put attention on them apart from a possible calculation, in Dragon Ball (Not even Z) Popo teaches Goku how to move at Lightning speed (Half or 1/3 of the Speed of Light.), and this makes him move his body to a complete extend even reacting to enemy movements before they happen (Pretty much a cheap version of Ultra Instinct) Goku masters this technique in the Budokai Arc. even before becoming Adult, saying that he didnt got at least 5 times stronger than when he was a kid is just downplaying.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5512/303422-lajt1_super.gif

And then you have Red from Pokemon who is rated as 6-C because "He should have surpass his previews peak", If a character just by time can jump from High 7-A to 6-C I think Goku can do the same with Relativistic.
 
Even going with relativistic base Goku and applying the kaioken multiplier (which absolutely can't be ignored as it is explained in-series) would make Goku FTL. And we gonna ignore that Goku became magnitudes stronger later, that it's not even funny.


I mean if we are power scaling, then why don't do it right? What's the point of scaling when we are ignoring the obviousness of the situation? We don't need to copy everything that OBD does.
 
Don't really see why downgrades should happen, if you accept the fact that the characters went small country level to small planet level over a period of time, i don't see why we would then say that the speed is an outlier, that sounds counter-intuitive to me, either you accept both the ap and speed, or you deny both, you can't just accept that piccolo blew up the moon, but then ignore his attack which blew up the moon.

Freeza in his first form which is stronger than piccolo has a relativistic calc, goku who is stronger than first form freeza can use kaioken x20 to boost himself and make himself 20x faster, there is the justification for them being FTL, pretty sure we have already been over this.
 
Goku's profile has already been downgraded, and I think all of DBZ is getting downgraded to relativistic+ smh
 
After reading the recent posts, I want to try and step in and offer my thoughts. Personally, I believe that light speed was reached in the Frieza Saga.

Frieza

Facts about Death Beams

  • Death Beams are the fastest ki beam at this point in the story
  • Piccolo's moon ki beam is at least sub-relativistic by our standards
  • Piccolo and Vegeta, who are considered at least Relativistic at the time by our community, recalled only seeing a flash
Goku

  • We all agree that Goku is Sub-Rel in Vegeta Saga.
Beam Deflect

  • If Death Beams are SoL, Goku is 155.3187181326623 % SoL
  • Goku is light speed if Death Beams are 64.4283121593% SoL
Growth Scaling through Power Levels
Power levels are best used to describe proportional growth for the individual rather than AP/Speed across multiple people. (ie. You can't scale Piccolo's power level from his moon feat to for Frieza's AP) Power level scaling should also only apply during Raditz to Frieza Saga due to Toriyama purposefully powering up Goku for Frieza.

Vegeta Saga: Over 8000

Ginyu Saga: 90000 (about 11.25x increase)

Frieza Saga: 3000000 (33.3333333333x increase)

If we assume that Power Levels scale linearly with speed as shown by the Kaio-Ken and that Goku is at least 1% SoL in Vegeta Saga, then Frieza Saga Goku should be 3.75c in terms of Combat Speed
 
Final Form Frieza 50% should be about 113x stronger/faster than his first form.
 
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