Frieza Saga CRT

[Amexim]

Goku, post Zenkai is stronger and faster than even his hypothetical Kaioken x10 would be. The Kaioken is explicitly demonstrated to increase his stats linearly. Therefore, as he is stronger than the version of himself that is boosted in all stats linearly, his profile should reflect this.

As this x10 Kaioken is based off of a statement that Goku made about his ability to apply this, and since he hasn't demonstrated this ability specifically, this should be a "possibly MFTL" rating by the end of the Frieza saga. Goku is likely very good in understanding if it is safe enough to use a desperation move like the Kaioken, even if he is prone to push himself too far over his limits. Goku didn't want to even use KKx3 or 4 himself, but did knowing that he wasn't going to match up with Vegeta otherwise.

This means that Goku isn't likely to be false in understanding what he can and can't do, at least in terms of what he is willing to risk. He wouldn't just say "how far can I push my luck?" when bragging aloud to himself about how strong he has gotten, especially with his positive, confident tone.

Anyone against this because of it being too "hypothetical", let me remind you that the word hypothetical is in the Possibly description, and we can have even more vague ratings according to it.

Additional arguments I have made can be found in this thread; Please read all of my comments (the longer ones specifically) if you disagree. I don't want to repeat myself 50 more times.

Link: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2176536#420

Dark's Scale: Ap:

As said here Krillin splitted his attack into six parts [Scattering Bullet], which oneshotted three Saibaman and could have killed another one since was forced to hide, also tried to attack Nappa and Vegeta, since the same thing was applied to Mo-Ri and the Code Geass profiles:

- BoZ Goku = Planet level [70 Zettatons], Vegeta Saga Base Goku = Planet level [280 Zettatons], Vegeta Saga KKx4 Goku = At least Planet level [1.120 Zettatons], Base Ginyu Saga Goku = At least Planet level [1.120 Zettatons].

- First Form Frieza = Dwarf Star level [1.7 Tenatons], Post Zenkai Goku = At least Dwarf Star level [At least 1.7 Tenatons], KKx20 Post Zenkai Goku = Small Star level [34 Tenatons], 100% Frieza = Small Star level [68 Tenatons].

Speed:

- BoZ Goku = Relativistic [0.14c], Vegeta Saga KKx4 Goku = Relativistic+ [0.56c], Ginyu Saga Base Goku = Vegeta Saga KKx4 Goku = Relativistic+ [0.56c], 2nd Form Freeza and Piccolo = Relativistic+ [0.56c], Goku Post Zenkai Kaiokenx10 and KKx20 = FTL [5.6c] and FTL+ [11.2c], 100% Freeza = FTL+ [22.4c].

- If KKx10 Goku statement is considered then Large Planet level [11.200 Zettatons] and FTL [5.6c] Ginyu Saga KKx10 Goku, 1st Form Frieza to Post Zenkai Base Goku FTL [5.6c], KKx10 FTL+ [56c] and MFTL KKx20 [112c], MFTL 100% Frieza [224c].

Important evidence:

Here's a link!

http://durumblock.com/dragon-ball/270/16

So, Goku believes he can go up to a 10x Kaioken. From that alone, we would know how strong he would be— since Kaioken isn't some random, inconsistent power up.

 

[Amexim]

To quote myself;


Boss, the definition on the AP page literally has the word Hypothetically on it. Just give it to me.

"'Possibly

Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate.'

Not to mention it seems that giving out a possibly is even allowed when there's 'less viable power scaling'. With its probability being 'indeterminate'? I feel like I know what that means, but maybe i'm stupid.

Doesn't that sentence as a whole mean that it doesn't matter how likely the hypothetical situation is, so long as it is a real possibility and not some headcanon, obviously?"

 

[Amexim]

Quoting ByAsura and Steffano;

"Goku did state that he's gained so much power that he's scared of it after getting his Zenkai boost. This should put it above the 10x Kaioken he believed his previous level capable of. [1]

Also, both Daizenshuu and the series confirm this multiplier is both power levels and strength, speed, durability, etc, not just one or the other, by showing that the power levels directly scale to the boost. One great example is when Goku with over 8000 uses kaioken x2, and is inferior to a suppressed and full power Vegeta, then surpasses him with a 3x kaioken. Another is Goku being 180,000 after he doubled his 90,000 pl. [2] [3]

That's not to say I actually agree with using the potential 10x, just that Goku would indeed be faster, both using and not using Kaioken to power levels."

"Well then, Post Zenkai Base Goku believing to have surpassed his previous peak of strength should be enough proof for the 10x times power/speed boost."

This is more than enough for a "possibly".

And to make it clear, we are using PLs solely as measuring sticks, equivalent to a character being stated to be stronger than another character in vague terms, and with us knowing all of the character's rankings, it's in order.

We are not applying any stupid ratio scaling to Power Levels. We're simply taking the numbers that we get based on whatever multipliers we use for their stats and power ups and applying them to power levels properly to see where Goku would stand.

Kaioken multiplies the Power Levels linearly. Even if PLs aren't linear, we know the Kaioken is. So, whatever stats Goku would have after a Kaiokenx10 is whatever he would have at that Power Level of 900K (from his Base of 90K) given that information. Since Dragon Ball says Goku's KKx10 would be at 900K, and Frieza's Second Form is 1M+, we know anyone superior to or comparable to Frieza in Seconf Release is at least as strong as Kaiokenx10 Goku. This is objective fact.

Possibly is here because we don't 100% have full confirmation that he could do the KKx10, just a very strong amount of evidence for it's likelihood. More than enough for a possibly.

 

[Amexim]

Bump

 

[Amexim]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

As long as no one tries to use power levels in a linear fashion, which you mentioned you aren't, the change seems fine to me.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The only problem I can see here is that this real possibility has no real fundamentation behind it.

Mainly, that this is a very big hypothetical with nothing else but guesswork and a logical argumentation of the supposed speed it should get u but, as said before, when MFTL+ is not properly supported until later, later on by more accepted feats than a very big hypothetical, how does that make it less shaky than Moon Exploding Roshi whose feat happens way before anything equal and accomplished by a character leagues above him?

My only problem with this isn't a lack of logical sense, is a lack of coherence with other already accepted feats. Unless of course you have an answer to those.

 

[Amexim]

It's not a big hypothetical. At all. Goku states that he can Goku would know if he can or can't, he's credible enough to know what he is willing to risk using Kaioken.

MFTL+ is just the rating. Super's Speed is millions of times FTL, whereas this is barely 200c. Even if we add the boosts to their bases passed to BOG, they'd be, like, 5,000c at Max. Which is still nothing to a Universal Being that has the MFTL speed beerus has. So the multipliers aren't contradicted by later feats because Goku is still no where near fast enough even with the scaling. The gap in power is preserved, to the point where Goku is strong as ****, but absolutely nothing compared to Beerus.

 

[Amexim]

So, in short, the feats don't contradict this... Mostly because the only MFTL feat is massively beyond this scaling, and characters with that power are already able to fodderize people with this scaling. So, no. MFTL Dragon Ball isn't inconsistent.

 

[Amexim]

Beerus is 3/4 of 72 quadrillion c. Even if Goku had enough boosts to be 1 million c, he would still be fodder to Beerus in a very significant way.

A casual Beerus who wouldn't fly max speed to get ******* lunch is this fast.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I agree with this, and it's not like ssj Goku isn't Massively FTL. If he's 5.6c in his base form, then as a super saiyan he'd be 224 times faster than light. Easily MFTL.

 

[Amexim]

Raw fax.

 

[Amexim]

Thing is, Goku will eventually be superior to Kibito and Shin in his Base, judging from the Z-Sword situations. So his base should be at least as strong as SSj.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wow this is a pretty dead thread. Only 4 people have commented here. Should I find a way to raise attention?

 

[Amexim]

Plz do.

 

[Amexim]

Bump

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I agree

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Bump

 

[Stefano4444]

Agree 100%, Goku Post Zenkai Post be superior to his previous counterpart in everyway was confermed not only by the official Power Level of the series (3,000,000 in Base vs hypothetical 900,000 with 10x Kaioken) but also by Goku himself.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l2x6STV5lIU/VkbVHmFIZwI/AAAAAAAEEBw/gz1OJFswu2k/s16000/0306-013.png

Goku is not know to lie or over exaggerate or at least not usually, and the same with the 10x Kaioken statement, so it more than likely he was meaning him even with his Kaioken 10x.

Thing is, Goku will eventually be superior to Kibito and Shin in his Base, judging from the Z-Sword situations. So his base should be at least as strong as SSj.

Exactly, Kibito failed miserably in lifting the Z Sword, a supposed Kaioshin who should be comparable with most Kaioshins, which are stated by Shin to be so powerful that each of them could easily destroy Frieza with a single blast.

And even if we ignore it, there is still plenty of evidence in the previous topic of Base Gohan/Goku/Vegeta of be comparable to Kibito or be slightly stronger, which would make them superior to Frieza in anycase. This not only means Buu Saga Goku would have be Massively FTL in Base, but that with the SSj Form he would have reached Massively FTL+ speed as well.

224c * 40 = 8,960c

Even without the 10x Kaioken statement, Buu Saga Goku would still be easily Massively FTL with the current scaling, and that without taking in consideration SSj2 and SSj3.

22,4c * 40 = 896c

 

[TheNarwhalKing]

I think it would be a good idea to get some staff input

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wow that's a damn good explanation.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I think it would be a good idea to get some staff input

I'm on it

 

[Amexim]

And 8,960c is far below Whis and Beerus.

 

[Stefano4444]

bump

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Things seem pretty dead.

 

[Stefano4444]

Things seem pretty dead.

Yes, looks like nobody care.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Odd, seem like most threads I'm following are dead.

 

[Amexim]

Bump

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except for the fact comparing end of Buu Saga Goku at his complete max, Ssj3 with 4-B, to the BoG Goku with SSG or simply vanilla Ssj after absorbing a portion of the power as 3-A absolute minimum, the jump in power is IMMENSE. DBS's Goku is inconsequential to this, the only thing I argued was feats from the rest of DBZ which wouldn't be consistent at all with all this.

Literally, your rationalization is that if Super Goku is so far above this Goku, such a speed jump is not irrational at all because the ceiling is already so high Goku keeps being fodder to Beerus, retaining consistency. Despite, again, opposing the rest of the relevant facts I am aware of that put Goku in later arcs at his current speed.

 

[Amexim]

FTL anything for Dragon Ball is inconsistent speed wise. So, Kaioken scaling isn't valid in your mind because there are no FtL speed feats in the Manga. Goku's Speed beyond Relativistic Ki attacks is unknown via feats, but we know via canon, consistent, accepted multipliers that he should factually be beyond forms of him that were linearly multiplied off of that result.

I will admit there are no consistent feats in the Manga for this, just as there are no consistent solar system feats in the anime. We accept statements with credibility. We accept Multipliers with credibility as well. Your cries about consistency are irrelevant, because then we would have to ignore multipliers all together, making every Dragon Ball Character Relativistic, likely fat far higher, when we know how far higher numerically.

 

[Amexim]

We shouldn't just toss the multipliers aside when they're valid. This means other verses can't use their accepted multipliers, when that's not fair because it's factual that they are applicable to the verse in a powerscaling perspective. You might as well ignore feats, considering the consistent multipliers are equally a part of the series' valid portrayals of capability as consistent feats are.

 

[Damage3245]

A small issue being that the value being multiplied by all of the multipliers is 0.14c, which is the speed of Piccolo's Ki blasts as of the Saiyan Saga.

Raditz did dodge one of these blasts, but you don't need to be as exactly as fast as something to dodge it, do you? Especially since he only side-stepped it slightly and was unable to dodge it fully.

 

[Amexim]

Raditz demonstrates his ability to outrun Goku's Kamehameha for a brief instant. The Kamehameha should be superior to one of Piccolo's standard Ki blasts. Dragon Ball characters consistently do this shit too— plus, we give characters supersonic ratings for dodging bullets.

This is annoying af.

 

[Amexim]

Besides, these same characters scale to the blasts because they are able to tag each other and run fast enough to get the drop on each other. If one is able to dodge a Ki Blast, but isn't able to dodge a tackle from another person, that tackle must be going faster than the Blast was.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Dodging bullets on it's own isn't supersonic, outspeeding them is.

 

[Damage3245]

What Raditz dodged was Piccolo's charged Special Beam Cannon, which Goku's Kamehameha isn't superior to as Raditz could block the Kamehameha with one hand whereas the Special Beam Cannon pierced straight through both Raditz and Goku.

Also, seeing as Piccolo's blast is the only one which as been calced from DBZ I don't see Dragon Ball characters consistently outrunning Relativistic blasts.

What's annoying?

 

[Amexim]

The Relativistic feat was done by a standard Ki Blast, not by the Special Beam Cannon. Read the manga dog. That's what's annoying. People criticizing things without proper understanding of what they're correcting. Piccolo's speed feat came from the moon busting feat too, which was an attack inferior to the SBC in every area, and judging from Piccolo's shock, that's by a massive margin, albeit unquantifiably so.

What's even more annoying is that admins haven't even shown up to this, knowing how important this is.

 

[Amexim]

And most characters get Supersonic from dodging bullets without aimdodging, because you have to be faster than them to get out of their path while they were in motion. A blast fired at Relativistic speeds would require you to move faster than it to get out of its path upon it being fired. And Raditz did that too.

Any REAL arguments left?

 

[The_Calaca]

SBC>>A charged KHH>>>Casual Ki Blast.

We can't quantify how much tho. But still Post-King Kai Training Goku was far stronger than everybody else but Vegeta even w/o Kaio-Ken.

Piccolo is fodder to Raditz but with SBC. Raditz is fodder to Nappa and Goku easily defeated Nappa. Nappa is fodder to Vegeta and Goku is superior to him in KKx3.

 

[Amexim]

^^^^