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Frieza Saga CRT

Don't ask those questions, PLZ Zamasu, you're detailing.

That's not what I am asking. We already agreed on the Kaioken scaling. This thread is about getting the "possibly" onto the profiles. Reread my first post for the rules on what is considered a possibly.

The only double standard here is the application of what we consider a valid "possibly" and what isn't. People adamantly refuse to use possibly or even think about anything not slammed on top of their head, be it for Dragon Ball or any other verse. This borders on making headcanon to explain what is simply PIS. The double standard is the overly high scrutiny.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
SSJ is 40x multiplier in the Goku Vs Frieza instance because Kaioken x20 = 50% Frieza, and SSJ Goku => 100% Frieza
Click to expand...
Actually it's more than 40x because Kaioken x20 < 50% Freeza (only scratched his palm) and SSJ1 > 100% Freeza. So 50x makes the most sense but it is at least greater than 40x.
 
Amexim said:
Irrelevant. Anyone else in favor of Possibly?
Click to expand...
Personally i think possibly/likely should be the minimum since technically Buu Saga Goku did surpass Frieza, making him FTL+ in base, meaning with the SSj Form he should get an additional 40x speed boost making him Massively FTL.
 
It is pretty much going nowhere in many ways, and I doubt it is gonna. Whatever the result, some extra comments from other knowledgeable members would help, personally I still very much disagree.
 
Why? All of your reasons for opposing have been settled. It doesn't conflict with higher feats, as the feats accepted In MFTL+ are millions of times higher than the most wanky multiplier bullshit. Which is not at all what is asking to be possibly applied. No point in leaving a comment on this thread if you're not gonna argue your point.
 
I already said what I wanted to say, the sudden increase in speed is not consistent as far as I can see with the speed showcased later in the series. This is not a Super issue, this is a Z as a whole issue, why in the hell do you feel the need to consistently pull up Super again when that is not what you should be contrasting with?

I may have, of course, forgotten other feats supporting MFTL for later arcs, but unless that was the case my stance remains that it doesn't feel at all consistent. If the reason for my oppositio is debunked by actual factual information, then just disregard me and move on. Nothing too hard to do.

Kep's "at least FTL+" is something I can agree with much easier if Kaio-Ken is implemented at all.
 
Gotenks flying around the world and the Solar Flare hitting people who knew it was coming probably.
 
Solar flare? You're kidding right? Also using the feat of Gotenks flying around earth is irrelevant because characters have feats that are lower than their actual level all the time. Like Cell ONLY shown to destroy islands or all the planet level feats despite characters being extremely superior to that. Inconsistent my ass unless you have other reasons.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Solar flare? You're kidding right? Also using the feat of Gotenks flying around earth is irrelevant because characters have feats that are lower than their actual level all the time. Like Cell ONLY shown to destroy islands or all the planet level feats despite characters being extremely superior to that. Inconsistent my ass unless you have other reasons.
Click to expand...
Difference is, planet busting is supported all throughout Z. You'll never see anything above 20% SoL at best in all of Z.
 
People need to stop bringing up the wholly irrelevant DBS in this conversation. Especially when they're using false equivalencies for it. Universal statements are out the wazoo while Whis is consistently MFTL+.
 
"The amount of light is connected to the strength of the person's ki, and the light source will become stronger the more ki the user has."

I think this is why they were still affected. The light energy probably became faster as well.
 
I just assumed that was talking about brightness. So the stronger you are the brighter the light becomes. Hence the "light source will become stronger the more ki the user has"
 
Ki is synonymous with speed and them not being able to react to light doesn't make any sense considering how much stronger and faster they are than BoS Piccolo. Even without using any natural multipliers, the scaling chain is more than large enough for them to be faster than light in Cell Saga when Piccolo was 1/4th light speed in the first chapter of DBZ.
 
> them not being able to react to light doesn't make any sense considering how much stronger and faster they are than BoS Piccolo.

It making sense was never the point, just that there's an anti-feat releated to their speed and no feats Pre-DBS of anything about 20% light.
 
All of you, sans Cal, are having irrelevant side talk that doesn't really add to or take away from any point made. To disregard the multipliers that imply FTL at the least just because of stupid writing, like characters being tagged by the Solar Flare— when there's moves in fiction that have this same level of bullshit. There are things that are inconsistent with DRAGON BALL feats.

Enough. Are we in favor of "Possibly" given the fact that we have accepted multipliers? Or are we going to scrap the multipliers? We should probably scrap all multipliers in fiction too, so long as they scale a character beyond a feat— EVEN if they make perfect sense.

Since we don't like accepting anything without feats, why not throw away statements too?
 
Imo, using power levels in addition with a hypothetical scenario isn't the best course of action. If there was a direct statement like - "Even kaioken x10 won't be able to defeat 2nd form Freeza", then it would have been pretty straightforward. But using power levels opens whole another can of worms. We should go by what's directly in front of us as that provides concrete information.

Piccolo's casual attack = 0.14c

Saiyan saga base Goku > 0.14c

Saiyan saga kaioken x4 Goku > 0.56c

Ginyu saga base Goku >> 0.56c

Ginyu saga kaioken x2 Goku >> 1.12c

Post-zenkai base Goku >>> 1.12c

Super Saiyan Goku >>> 56c

Moreover, we already have characters rated as "At least FTL+, higher" so there's no need for a possibly rating to make the profiles redundant.
 
"All of you, sans Cal, are having irrelevant side talk that doesn't really add to or take away from any point made"

"We should probably scrap all multipliers in fiction too, so long as they scale a character beyond a feat— EVEN if they make perfect sense.

Since we don't like accepting anything without feats, why not throw away statements too?"

Take a few minutes to stop sounding like a child not getting what they want. Some people agree, some people disagree, and those people are debating about it. No need to turn so rude because you feel we don't see "the obvious logical sense" you point out as your reasoning, which is your tone right now.
 
I'll expand on my opinion. I have no problem with the conclusion that post-zenkai base Goku > hypothetical kaioken x10 Goku, but the method used to justify this conclusion. It would be same as saying a hypothetical BoZ kaioken x4 Goku will be around the level of Saibamen or Raditz. Or a hypothetical kaioken x15 Saiyan saga Goku will beat the Ginyu Force. Or a hypothetical kaioken x2000 Ginyu saga Goku will beat 100% Freeza.

Basically what you are doing is taking 2 power levels, and using hypothetical kaioken to justify that the difference between them works in a linear fashion. This could be done to validate the entirety of PLs to be linear.

Now if the rest of the staff members are okay with it, I have no problem. I am just pointing out a potential fault in the logic.
 
Part of the issue, not sure if you followed the thread from which this one sprung, was the consistent wording of Kaio-Ken as a multiplier however times of the number stated. I do believe most agreed with that but there was an issue due to necessiting upgrading speed likewise, which would give us speeds incongruent with what (as far as I am aware) has been found consistent due to it's linear multiplication. However this seems to have kinda of veered off somewhere and power levels were added to the issue in this thread at least.

Granted, some people may have disagreed still due to the contradiction of Kaio-Ken multiplying PLs by an exact number and the stats also being boosted by that same number, throwing the inconsistency of PLs into an odd zone. Or at least, that was something that personally bothered me.
 
I do not understand why I have been pressing reply and it's not showing up.

So i'm Just gonna reiterate.

Dragon Ball Z speed feats never reach MFTL, just as Solar System feats don't exist. Statements exist for the latter, and Solid Multipliers and Scaling exist for the former. To deny the use of one is to reject the use of the other because they are both flawed for the same reason. "No feats!"

To all the other irrelevant arguments;

Power Levels do not need to be linear for this to be true. All that needs to be true is that the Kaioken multiplies the stats linearly. That the same Multipliers increase PLs linearly. It doesn't matter if or if not Power Levels are linear— and even if we treat them like so, we can only forward scale them, and in addition, it would be less than the actual values we get from the story. So, even if we treated PLs linearly, it would be like drawing a linear line on an exponential function graph. It would only low ball, considering there is no consistency for the idea of a character being weaker than another, despite having a higher power level, or being physically stronger than another, despite having a lower power level.

Dragon Ball Travel Speed Feats we're always trash. Breaking it down, Goku has the stamina to sprint and fly at full speed for at least as long as a normal person can, though that's downplay, considering he swam and ran halfway across the world in a single day. But even still, Goku, sprinting like a normal person, would have finished the Snake way run in 5 minutes tops, but it took him less than a day instead. It's bad writing like this that make these low end travel feats built in to the story for suspense alone unreliable as detraction evidence against MFTL or even FTL travel. Bad writing chief.

Here's the math.

Goku, assuming he has normal human stamina, can sprint at most, 10 seconds. He moves approximately 93,886,328.1 MPH, which is 156,477.213 Miles per Sprint (10 Seconds). Snake way is 625,000 Miles long. Goku can sprint, catch his breath, sprint, catch his breath, sprint, rest, and sprint again and be done in 3 minutes.

But Yamcha and Tien and Chiaotzu died before he even got to Earth...

This guy can fight for Five Minutes Straight, moving at these sprinting speeds, and he likely trained for five days straight, with little ear. I have no reason to suspect that he cannot move faster than what he has shown, and bad writing is the only rational conclusion, because Toriyama doesn't put much thought into this shit, by his own admission.

I'm upset, not because no one is disagreeing with me, but because no one is making a good argument as to why— when I expect people to be competent enough to realize why their arguments don't make sense.
 
> I have no reason to suspect that he cannot move faster than what he has shown, and bad writing is the only rational conclusion, because Toriyama doesn't put much thought into this shit, by his own admission.

Another rational conclusion is maybe we're just overestimating the speed of the characters.
 
Disregarding feats that demonstrate otherwise? Consistent ones? So, I hope you never use the phrase "PIS" again, because then you're definitely just blatantly using double standards.

You're literally on a site that does this type of stuff in spades.

This is ridiculous. The lengths you'll go to downplay characters is wild— so wild that you'd disregard consistent feats.
 
I thought you said there were no MFTL feats? Unless you're referring to different feats in that post.
 
"All that needs to be true is that the Kaioken multiplies the stats linearly. That the same Multipliers increase PLs linearly."

And you can use this argument in all the above cases which I mentioned. Just apply a hypothetical kaioken multiplier on the PLs and BAM, you are using PLs to scale in a linear fashion. Something we don't do.
 
Like, it's a ridiculous double standard. It's so blatantly obvious too. We can except upscaling with the multipliers, but not when it gets to MFTL, even though it logically would go that far. I'm even giving you a "possibly" because we never saw Goku use it before— we just know how strong he would be in relation to Second Form Frieza and could use our brains and 5 seconds of thought to deduce that Second Form Frieza is likely superior to KKX10 Goku be Ginyu.

To say that the speed is incongruous with anything shown is misleading, because while it is literally true, it disregards the strength and power multipliers nature that does the same thing (elevating characters without feats), and ignores the nature of what a statement is as well, since it isn't attacking the other obvious opponent— the Solar System Level statement of Cell. "Where's the feats for it?"

Even with all of that, all examples of contradictions are blatantly bad writing that should be disregarded, as all PIS is.

I agree with Solar System Cell, I'm just pointing out the double standard here.
 
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