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Frieza Saga CRT

Okay, let me put it like this.

Has anyone tried calcing how fast Raditz would need to move to barely side-step a 0.14c< Special Beam Cannon from Piccolo?

Because Piccolo called this kind of speed unbelievable, and I'm curious to say if the speed is consistent with what we're rating Raditz as.

(I am aware that this may be classed as calc stacking, but I am curious to see what the result would be.)
 
It wouldn't matter, because Raditz is rated as at least as fast as a standard blast (casual doesn't fit, because he was panting, though he could have been panting from fear or stress rather than exertion, especially since he was lightly panting. Point was, it wasn't 100% clearly casual, but it certainly wasn't the SBC or anything like a desperation move/killing move like the Kamehameha). Raditz being able to momentarily outrun a KHH, which should be faster than a standard blast, and even if it isn't, Raditz still is able to outspeed regular blasts. If the SBC weren't faster than his standard blasts, then Piccolo wouldn't have been shocked at him dodging. If the Kamehameha was as fast as the SBC, Piccolo would have been shocked even still. Hell, if the KHH was slower than a Standard Blast, someone would have commented on its speed, like they did with Krillin's "Scatter Kamehameha" Attack.

Point is, we don't need to even do that to know Raditz and DB characters are capable of moving at similar speeds to their attacks.
 
It isn't Calc stacking, Special Beam is an attack often portrayed as being faster than regular Ki blasts, and Raditz was able to dodge it at point blank range. Also, Dragon Ball is super consistent in which a character's punches are just as fast as their regular Ki blasts.
 
It wasn't point blank range was it? I thought it was at least a few metres away when he started dodging it.
 
Yeah, he waited for the SBC to get close to him before he flew to the side, in which Piccolo described him as being "Faster than the speed of light." Obviously a hyperbole, but not too far off. And as mentioned numerous times, their punches are easily faster than the regular Ki blasts, so they're easily Relativistic.
 
I don't think he described him as faster than the speed of light in the official translation. Just that nobody could move so quickly.

EDIT: I'm also not sure how the characters using the Solar Flare to blind each other factors into this. You'd think if they had FTL+ reactions then they wouldn't be blinded so easily all the time by a flash of light.
 
The Solar Flare argument is... bad. That's just brings of Kid Goku outrunning it, which is an obvious outlier for sure, but you can't just pull every low end feat to downgrade the verse; I could use the same argument to downgrade Superman to Large Building level and Supersonic speed. Solar Flare's speed isn't all that consistent and is probably either not Lightspeed in early sagas and Faster than light in later sagas.

Also, characters consistently deflect regular Ki blasts just by swatting them extremely casually. Again, let's stop arguing Raditz saga characters being Relativistic because that part is case and point, let's focus on characters reaching higher than that through Multipliers. That being said, I'm neutral on Massively FTL using that 10x Kaioken statement, but doubt that's going to be accepted, but I'm fine with what we have now, which is 1st Form Frieza being > Ginyu saga Goku Kaioken x2 Since 530,000 > 180,000. But the 900,000 is the iffy part.
 
> That's just brings of Kid Goku outrunning it, which is an obvious outlier for sure

Pretty sure that was debunked as Kid Goku could have simply started moving before the Solar Flare was activated.

> but you can't just pull every low end feat to downgrade the verse

And yet one feat (Piccolo's moon-busting) is used to support almost the entire verses speed ratings?

But fair enough, I have less of a problem with Raditz being relativistic as I do with Friexa Saga characters and beyond being Massively FTL.
 
The only time Piccolo calls the SBC lightspeed is in the orginial Funi dub, but that was changed to be "He side stepped it?" in the Kai dub. The only like, light part in the manga is the move name. Which is called "The Light of Death" instead of the Special Beam Cannon.
 
Kepekley23 said:
There are no low ends against it.
Click to expand...
Well, the Solar Flare is a possibility unless we just dismiss that whole thing completely.

The travel speeds in the various sagas which are all much lower than the speed of light may be an indication too (if they can dash at FTL speeds over short distances, why can't they fly at FTL speeds around the planet in an instant?).
 
Here's the Daizenshuu article on it

Makankosappo [Demon Pierce Light Kill Cannon] First Appearance: Chapter 201

Category: ki manipulation

People: Piccolo, Cell

Special Characteristics: After losing to Goku at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai, Piccolo invented this technique after much training. It's a technique whose purpose was to defeat Goku, but it ended up being first used during the battle with Raditz. Concentrating ki into his fingertips, he fires it out in the form of a screw. As the kind of technique that concentrates ki into a single point, its force is enough to pierce through the opponent's body. It possesses considerable destructive and piercing power, but it has the weakness that it requires time to gather ki. Because of this, Raditz was able to read through the technique, and the first blast merely destroyed his shoulder pad. However, when fired a second time, it not only pierced through Raditz's body, but also Goku as well, who was pinioning Raditz. This shows the incredibleness of its power. (Daizenshuu 2, p.210/Daizenshuu 4, p.111)

Anime: Apart from Piccolo, Cell fired it as well during his battle with Piccolo in Ginger Town. It seems that its force was the same as right when Piccolo first devised it.
 
Well, that is another thing. I highly doubt anyone Pre Dragon Ball Super is FTL in terms of flight speed/Travel speed, but Dragon Ball's always consistent in having combat speed be overwhelmingly greater than their own flight speed. And Solar Flare more so bothers characters based on AoE rather than speed.
 
Also the Solar Flare

Taiyou-Ken [Fist of the Sun]

First Appearance: Chapter 124

Category: ki manipulation

People: Tenshinhan, Krillin, Son Goku, Cell

Special Characteristics: A Tsuru-sen School technique. Tenshinhan first used it during his fight with Goku at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai [he actually first uses it against Jacky Chun]. Gathering ki in his upper body, he converts it to light energy and radiates it out in front of his face. Blinding the opponent's eyes, this is used when retreating from battle. The amount of light is connected to the strength of the person's ki, and the light source will become stronger the more ki the user has. The first person from outside the Tsuru-sen School to use this technique was Goku. (Daizenshuu 4, p.113)
 
Yeah No. Dragon Ball has to be FTL in Movement speed— Raditz literally outrunning a Kamehameha is the first example we see of characters outpacing Ki blasts. Not to mention full body tackles and speed blitzing characters who's energy blasts are Relativistic to light speed. Combat Speed is NOT how fast your body can move from point a to point b during a fight. Combat speed is how fast your attacks and reactions are. Goku being able to outpace an energy blast is travel speed. Then vanishing from sight and shit is them traveling from point a to point b. But this is Irrelevant.

If the logic we use for the current rating is 530K > 180K, then 1M+ > a hypothetical 900K is good enough for a Possibly.

I'm asking for a possibly. If it isn't irrational to think it's possible, then please put it on the page. Because it being "hypothetical" isn't at all bad for a possibly— it's if the hypothesis is 100% bullshit. Which, it's not.
 
Short burst flight speed is still more combat speed. Plenty of martial artists even IRL can run short bursts at Subsonic speed, but not for long periods; otherwise the word record for olympic runners would be much higher. Dragon Ball characters don't normally travel from one side of the planet to the other at FTL speeds; it's mostly the heat of combat is when they move that fast. As for the multiplier scaling, I'm personally okay with possibly Massively FTL, but it's better to wait for more staff input; I already know other staff members rejected that idea though.

Though, if Kid Buu's speed feat got calc'd more properly then that might be legit as well.
 
Yes, I already know that, but that was well before Kep came here; he might be able to calc it better though.
 
Well, I did read the blog, and I know Hoshi can mean planet or star. But the fact is, the symbol for star and the symbol for planet were literally used in the same sentence and separated by conjunction in the Japanese manga.

Anyway, I can agree with waiting for the Broly movie, since that should have really good speed feats.
 
@Zamasu Right now, he's superior to Ginyu saga Goku with Kaioken x2, so > 1.12c.
 
Imagine the Campfire Song from Spongebob, except every instance of "campfire" is replaced with "outlier", and you'll have VBW whenever DBZ is about to get an upgrade.
 
To take the fact that it looks as though they only fly in short bursts of speed and use PIS anti-feats as a justification for the idea's validity is improper procedure. Every time a Dragon Ball Character had to fly any long distance, their speed was shortened for the sake of plot tension and plot tension alone. The same reason why normal humans like Mr. Satan can see them fight. If you want to substantiate the IRRELEVANT claim that DB characters are only FTL in short bursts, you're going to need more than PIS for that. Especially when the way they "teleport" everywhere is commonplace in the portrayal of speed in fiction.

Though they come from Super, numerous examples of characters blitzing longer distances then simply 30ft in a short burst. Goku blitzing Jiren in that iconic MUI transformation is the prime example.

Hell, characters fly while fighting simultaneously in Dragon Ball all the time, often appearing as blurred lines on screen that slam against each other and create shockwaves— for what is implied to be an entire fight, so to say the absence of characters not bogged down by bad writing means that they CANNOT use that speed for sustained distances is bullshit.

Gohan even had to be taught to see their movements by Piccolo, and even while looking, for the brief instants of him getting used to it, it looked like orange and green streaks were slapping against each other.

You can't say "oh, those examples of long distance high speed travel come from DBS, so that means none of the arcs before allowed it to be possible", because you're using the lack of good portrayal to make a claim that's unsubstantiated in your favor.

Just because Goku had never ran across the planet in a sustained race or something isn't proof of his inability to do so, nor is it proof of him having stamina issues sustaining that speed. It's headcanon used to explain bad writing when we need no further explanation for the bad writing than to acknowledge it for what it is. You can't say "Goku could only use a spoon when eating, and he only just learned how to use a fork when he met Chi-Chi," without proof of Goku not knowing how to use a fork before Chi-Chi.

It's also not really rational to call "short burst" running/flight speed (because it's both, all of the Tournament of power is that demonstration) combat speed only, since flying from point A to B, however short the distance, is still traveling, and most Sprints are short bursts of top speed running. If they get tired from flying forever is irrelevant to how fast they can get while traveling.
 
0.25x times 4 is 1. Add that to Goku's Kaioken on Ginyu Saga, and we have 2x FTL.

2x FTL, times 20 is 40x FTL. And finally, double it to account for Freeza's 50% and we have 80x FTL.

I support "At least FTL+", and then a "likely higher" for everything after the Freeza Arc. If that's not accepted we will be forced to discard Kaioken altogether because of obvious double standards.
 
Piccolo's feat is 0.14c in which Saiyan saga Kaioken x4 would be > 0.56c. Then Ginyu saga with Kaioken x2 is 1.12c and then there's the 10x, 20x, and 40x multipliers.
 
I know why that ssj is a 40 times multiplier here but I have to say no to that. Ssj Goku vs 100% Freeza, although Freeza was hanging in there, there was a scene where Goku was completely blitzing Freeza to the point where he told Goku to stop playing around with him.
 
SSJ is 40x multiplier in the Goku Vs Frieza instance because Kaioken x20 = 50% Frieza, and SSJ Goku => 100% Frieza
 
Why wouldn't that in itself be at least FTL+ possibly Massively FTL? If it was 50 he would be 100 times FTL. And why do we not use power levels again?
 
Because PL's are extremely inconsistent; like often times, being only 2x stronger as far as displayed PL is concerned actually makes you more like Quadrillions of times stronger AP wise. Or same with displayed PL being 100x makes someone a million times in another instance. Not to mention the Farmer having a PL of 5. Bottomline, PL's are nonlinear. And by that logic, anyone with a PL that exceeds 10,000,000 is Massively FTL+ which is also absurd.

50x also comes for Kaizenshu and not the primary canon manga.
 
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