Frieza Saga CRT

[Qawsedf234]

Kaio-Ken does increase a person's PL in a linear fashion. When Goku went KKx4 his power level also quadrupled to 32,000. Its just a thing that happens.

So I think his argument is that Freeza/Whoever's PL > KKx10 pre-Ginyu Goku's PL, so they should have comparable speed. So he's not saying that all PL scales linearly, just that KK makes it increase in a linear fashion

 

[AKM sama]

@Qawsed

A hypothetical kaioken. His argument is "If Ginyu saga Goku uses kaioken x10, he will still be weaker than 2nd form Freeza, i.e. 2nd form Freeza is more than 10 times stronger than Ginyu saga base Goku."

You can use the same argument everywhere like - "If BoZ Goku used kaioken x3, he would still be weaker than Raditz, i.e. Raditz is more than 3 times stronger than BoZ base Goku."

OR

"If Saiyan saga Goku used kaioken x15, he would be equal to Ginyu, i.e. Ginyu is 15 times stronger than Saiyan saga base Goku."

OR

"If Saiyan saga Goku used kaioken x100, he would be weaker than 2nd form Freeza, i.e. 2nd form Freeza is more than 100 times stronger than Saiyan saga base Goku."

 

[Qawsedf234]

But in all of your examples Goku either didn't know the Kaio-Ken or would've instantly died from the stress of using it to that level. If King Kai says that Goku can use the KKx10, then he can use the KKx10.

 

[AKM sama]

Doesn't matter whether he knows it or whether he can use it. We are talking about "'''if'''" he used it how much PL he'd have. The same hypothetical scenario used here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> whether he can use it

It totally does. Saiyan Saga Goku could barely handle x4. x100 would almost instantly kill him. Unlike Namek Goku going KKx10 where its confirmed, it's not possible for Saiyan Saga Goku to go x100

> We are talking about "if" he used it how much PL he'd have

But he can use it, he just never got the chance to

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It might be best to inform Dark649 about the thread; however, if this goes in circles too much, then we might be forced to say nothing to change.

 

[KLOL506]

Plus, the infamous "Frieza blowing up Planet Vegeta" feat being renewed in the new movie might change a crapton of results.

 

[AKM sama]

Again, doesn't matter how or why. It's a hypothetical scenario where "if" he used it, how much PL he'd have.

Basically you are using a hypothetical scenario to prove that 2nd form Freeza > 10x base Goku.

I am using a similar hypothetical scenario to prove that Ginyu = 15x saiyan saga Goku.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But your hypothetical is based on something canonically impossible. The hypothetical I presented is backed up in universe by the creator of the ability and the person who trained Goku.

 

[Amexim]

Except I am telling you that we are not doing that at all. You're taking us to that conclusion yourself, when I am saying that we ARE NOT scaling linearly with PLs— we don't even have to We are applying a multiplier where it fits. Not scaling a whole verse to their PL numbers. In fact

Doing this:

Goku has a linear KK multiplier for his stats. Goku would still be weaker than Second Form Frieza even if he used his x10 multiplier. How do we know? Power Levels. By using them in the way they are intended, how we have always used them— as a measuring stick or a comparison tool, we can apply what we know about the Kaioken to this. We know that the Kaioken multiplier increases your PL linearly. We know 90K x10 is 900K. We know Frieza is 1M+. Without any knowledge of feats or anything, we know that if Goku could use the KKX10, Frieza would still be stronger in his Second Form. While, based on no context, it could be speculated that PLs are linear if the

Power Levels not being linear doesn't negate the fact that Goku's Kaioken is a linear multiplier to his stats and Power Level. Even if the Kaioken didn't linearly affect the power levels, so long as we know what Goku's PL would be with KKx10, we know anyone who has a higher power level than KKx10 Goku is stronger than him, it doesn't matter what the number is, or how we got to the number. The thing here is, we know how to get to Goku's PL when he has a KKx10, and it conviently matches his stat increases. We just applied the Kaioken to it, as it normally operates in the story, nothing unique here. If you have a problem with doing it here, you shouldn't accept Kaioken multipliers in general, because the linear increase with Power Levels from the Kaioken has always happened whenever Goku used it. We just didn't and shouldn't take that relationship into account further than recognizing it exists. Just because Goku's Kaioken is linear doesn't mean PLs are either. Power Levels can be and are non-linear. The Kaioken isn't, and the KK affects them linearly. That doesn't make Power Levels linear by itself, going by evidence of the contrary. So please stop trying to bring that up.

Using Power Levels in the way I outlined before isn't the same as doing this;

Route 1: We have an exact number for a planet busting feat! Piccolo's PL of 500! We can scale every character up and down by the ratio difference between him and any other character, so farmer with a shotgun is actually 1/500 Planetary! Wow!

Route 2: Ooo! We know Goku's Kaioken is a linear increase in stats AND PLs! Therefore, all we have to do is just use the difference in ratio between him and someone else to know how strong

Saying we know Frieza in Second Form is stronger than Kaiokenx10 Goku because we know what power level Goku would have with the Kaiokenx10, and it would be lower than Frieza's is NOT the same as scaling power levels.

 

[Amexim]

AKM.

The difference between your hypothetical and mine is that mine has an actual statement behind it. Yours adds a whole bunch more assumptions in order to distort my argument on purpose.

There is no reason to add a "possibly" to what you said because we don't have any reason to even believe Goku can use KKx15 in the Saiyan Saga. The only reason we're

That's not even my claim. Stop. And the "if" is acceptable so long as it's based in something. Your if is based in nothing. Goku can't even reach that with the Kaioken at that time, whereas mine CAN.

 

[Dust_Collector]

"Just because Goku's Kaioken is linear doesn't mean PLs are either. Power Levels can be and are non-linear. The Kaioken isn't, and the KK affects them linearly."

The Kaioken can't just "affect them linearly" because power levels are always exponential and non-linear, what you're saying is that if Goku used the KK×2 to go from 20,000 to 40,000 that would be ok to treat as a linear 2 times stat increase, but if Goku instead when from 20,000 to 40,000 via just training or a zenkai it's not ok to treat as a linear 2 times stat increase despite being the exact same same power level increase.

 

[Stefano4444]

The is also another matter to discuss, which is the fact that that Buu Saga Base Goku had been show to have reached or surpassed his Frieza Saga counterpart in Base Form.

Since that would mean Buu Saga Goku is easily FTL+ speed without any of his SSj Forms, which means with only his Super Saiyan Form he would be able to reach Massively FTL speed.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The is also another matter to discuss, which is the fact that that Buu Saga Base Goku had been show to have reached or surpassed his Frieza Saga counterpart in Base Form.

Are you talking about him having surpassed his Super Saiyan self from Frieza Saga instead? It's an obvious fact Goku's Base Form at the Buu Saga is above his Frieza Saga Base Form. The forms are multipliers, even if we account for the stronger forms developed over time, they had to train to achieve those forms. Problem is, and correct me if wrong, even when turned Ssj whatever number there hasn't been a proper, or supported, MFTL feat for them up to Buu Saga.

 

[Amexim]

Neither has their been Solar System Level feats. Do you accept Solar System Level Cell? If so, do you see what the problem with your argument? You're not accepting Multipliers, but you accept statements just fine.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Neither has their been Solar System Level feats. Do you accept Solar System Level Cell? If so, do you see what the problem with your argument? You're not accepting Multipliers, but you accept statements just fine.

Because an statement can have enough weight behind it to merit taking it seriously. Have you ever actually heard about context? Or hyperboles or boasting? Many of these are common and that's why context, or supplemental proof matters.

Literally spend half the time you put into one of your massive replies in his profile, and you'll see "a statement that has been confirmed by many guidebooks" right there, with added helpful link directing to you a page with the provided evidence.

 

[Amexim]

If you bothered to think about your own positions with both of those things, you would understand that your logic dictates you should be in favor of what I am proposing.

We have multipliers that are consistent enough to take seriously, and hard scaling beyond characters who are amped by those multipliers that ARE FACTUALLY a part of the story, irrefutably. Goku is, for example, stronger in his base than any of his previous KKx10 states. Accepting MFTL Goku is literally as simple as determining whether or not Goku is stronger than his KKx10 Form, which he likely is, given the fact that we have PLs stating he would be inferior to Second Form Frieza, who he was stronger than.

We have enough weight behind the multipliers to use them. But, for some reason, you're asking "where are the feats?" As if it's not enough...

You can't sit here and accept a statement with no feats, but disregard multipliers that are solid an acceptable for the same reason when you can accept the former if there's "enough weight behind it".

It's hilarious how you try to talk down to me when you can't even see your own contradictions. Plz stop.

 

[Amexim]

Like, how can I not believe you're doing this on purpose?

You sit here and say "that's too high!" At MFTL, when you don't bat an eye to anything we currently have, even though they're all based in using multipliers too. You're just afraid because it gives a higher rating that "feels" too high, aren't you? Because if you're against this because "no feats" you should be against the Kaioken's use all together. But you haven't made that claim. The only thing you're consistent on is asking "where are the feats?" Requiring them arbitrarily instead of as a part of your standard judgement proceedings for stats.

The multipliers are solid, and the statement for this has enough weight behind it that it deserves considering. You're smart enough to know this, and yet you still disagree. I wonder why...

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If you really have to word this like some sort of conspiracy agaisnt you, then I really doubt any logic will even start to work here and my interest for this thread is now highly waning.

You are also talking a high tale about mine, and the double standards of everyone, when Cell's statement has, and hear out this surprising surprise, nothing refutting and direct statements backing it up. Do you see the difference now? That despite the application of all logic saying the speed from Kaio-ken makes sense, it contradicts the speed feats later and the only thing backing it up is logic, logic that can as well fall on it's face because we don't accept PLs being linear despite the fact Kaio-Ken is a linear power up, both in stats and PL.

At what point, I'd like to ask you, did I push for any feats about Kaio-ken? You are constantly pushing for your points and apparently not even understanding mine as you do. I even agreed with Kep's "FTL+, likely higher" which makes sense because it doesn't suddenly crap all over accepted speed values for future arcs, which MFTL does.

If pointing fingers and calling anyone that doesn't agree a hypocrite for double standards is your only appeal to agree, I don't feel quite tempted to do so.

 

[Amexim]

Inb4 we say "scrap the multipliers", lemme outline this for you.

It is factually correct to say Goku's base is at least stronger than his Saiyan Saga KKx4 version of himself upon arrival to Namek. We know KK is a linear increase for your stats. To throw away this Multiplier scaling is to ignore this FACT of the Verse.

We're essentially going against what is stated to be true in the story in order to fit our standards— beyond even outliers and PIS and inconsistencies, we're literally ignoring solid facts here that are stated to be true.

>Ignoring things that are stated to be true.

So, we're basically ignoring statements...? Hm.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It is also a solid fact, more or less stated by the writer of said comic, that in the instance Flash saved an entire city of people moving them one by one out of a blast zone (if I am remembering the part correctly), he was moving close to the speed of light. This was obviously his intent as well when writing the piece as he stated this.

It was still calced at MFTL+. It is not our fault if the author doesn't notice the little mistakes he pulls off because he doesn't get out his calculator and starts inputting numbers. Even if the show claims whatever it wants, if it defies itself later, well whoops.

Stop putting a narrative on what I said or did, it doesn't help your case. Kep's At least FTL+ makes much more sense to me, and it relies on Kaio-Ken multipliers. They just don't slap you with MFTL results.

 

[Stefano4444]

Are you talking about him having surpassed his Super Saiyan self from Frieza Saga instead?

Yes, i was talking about him in the Buu Saga having surpassed his Super Saiyan self from Frieza Saga in Base Form, sorry it was just a grammatical error, i have corrected my comment to make it more clear.

Problem is, and correct me if wrong, even when turned Ssj whatever number there hasn't been a proper, or supported, MFTL feat for them up to Buu Saga.

And we don't have any FTL+ speed feat to proper support FTL+ speed for Frieza Saga, but Kaioken Multipliers, Powerscaling and Statements were enough to make Frieza 100% and SSj Goku that fast.

We know that the standard Super Saiyan Form give at least a 40x power/speed increase and that Buu Saga Base Saiyans have most likely reached or suprassed Frieza 100% (the reasons behind this can be found in this thread).

Unless we want to assume that the standard Super Saiyan Form had become weaker over time no longer allowing the same increase of power/speed as before, something that it was never stated before, then the 40x Multiply should be apply once again, which would make Buu Saga Tiers 'At least Massively FTL'.

 

[Damage3245]

> And we don't have any FTL+ speed feat to proper support FTL+ speed for Frieza Saga, but Kaioken Multipliers, Powerscaling and Statements were enough to make Frieza 100% and SSj Goku that fast.

Forgive me if I've missed anything but which speed-related statements? Unless you mean power level/kaoiken related statements?

 

[Stefano4444]

Forgive me if I've missed anything but which speed-related statements? Unless you mean power level/kaoiken related statements?

Yeah i mean those, like how Goku had stated that the Kaioken increase everything, including speed, or that he was potentially capable to use his Kaioken 10x after his training during his travel to Namek.

 

[Dark649]

It might be best to inform Dark649 about the thread.

I already knew about this thread since i talked and stated my opinion about it at the end of this thread.

 

[Amexim]

Here's the thing, Lancelot.

When you're saying there are feats that contradict MFTL Dragon Ball Z, the only feats that contradict it are PIS bullshit. The only feats that contradict the Kaioken are things we don't and can't take seriously. You know this, and you're using that to substantiate your argument, when I have demonstrated to you that the only contradictions in speed feats there are don't even make sense in any context of the story.

You try to say I'm not being logical when I have stated multiple times that we don't need PLs to be linear to know that Goku using the KKx10 is weaker than Frieza, and using PLs the way the Kaioken has worked on them to find the proof for it. I suggested nothing about linear scaling using power levels for the whole cast. AKM did. I explicitly said I was against that, and clarified that we're using them this way ONLY to find where KKx10 Goku is on the chart.

I stated this, multiple times, and you still keep the same positions.

"We can't use power levels to scale characters linearly!"

"I'm not tho. I'm trying to figure out who scales to KKx10 Goku, by figuring out what PL KKx10 Goku would have, since we have viable reasons to assume this is possible."

AKM's statements on using Saiyan Saga KKx15 Goku, who doesn't exist, to match Ginyu and get concrete stats. Except that's not what I am doing. Me applying what the KKx10 does to the number and using that number as a statement to see who is stronger than Goku with the KKx10 is not the same as trying to match Ginyu with the a Kaiokrn multiplier that never happened.

And the thing that really pisses me off is, Lancelot is proving my point.

There are no legitimate feats that contradict MFTL. But if you want to say there is, those same feats contradict FTL+ too!

But you accept FTL+... You accept it, despite the same contradictions applying to MFTL.

By your own admission, you feel like MFTL is too high, as it "slaps you out of nowhere."

You complain about the results being MFTL, despite it being the same process, and the way you do it implies you think that it's too high and needs more proof to be supported than FTL+.

When FTL+ (56c) is also very high above the feats shown and go against the bullshit feats you would use to substantiate your argument against MFTL.

You're admitting that you only have a problem with MFTL because it's "too high", without any reason other than your irrational discomfort.

Don't deny it. You said "They don't just slap you with MFTL Results", which implies that it's the results that send you off, and not the methods.

If this is false, then explain WHY you favor FTL+ over MFTL— don't say that FTL+ doesn't contradict any feats, because, if you use the PIS feats, it does have contradictions. The same applies to MFTL. We shouldn't use those feats because they're bullshit, and since there wouldn't be any feats to contradict MFTL dragon Ball.

The way you react to these ratings implies you have an irrational aversion to them because "it's too high", especially when you use phrases like "came out of nowhere". You arbitrarily suddenly require feats to support MFTL, but not with FTL+. Implying what I stated I'd true.

If MFTL has viable Feat Contradictions, those same feat contradictions would go against FTL+, considering the only feats that exist speed wise (which aren't viable, but let's pretend they are) contradict BOTH. How can I not see how arbitrary your stances are?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

No, Amexim. You are deciding stuff one-sidedly and putting my judgement into question as your only argument because I am disagreeing with you. That's not an argument and it is a bit in poor taste as far as I am concerned, so my interest for this as a whole is fairly non-existent at the moment.

Please, burden of proof is on you as this is your CRT. Do point out why the speed feats aren't viable at all and MFTL+ makes more sense than FLT+ if a value must be taken.

 

[Amexim]

If you bothered to read, I have.

Snake Way, Goku should've taken 5 minutes tops, but it took him almost a day.

Gotenks' flight around the world has an unquantifiable time frame, but it's at least MHS to MHS+, which contradicts even early DBZ.

Trunks taking so long to get to capsule Corp doesn't make sense either for the same reasons that Snake Way Goku doesn't make sense. Trunks should be comparable to Relativistic Goku from the beginning of Z, and yet it took him far more than a few seconds to get from the Lookout to Capsule Corp.

All of these feats were in the story to add tension. Goku vs Buu, the Saiyans vs Z-Fighters. The only exception to this is the Gotenks Feat with no proper timeframe to it, so we can't use it.

And ALL of the feats here go against not just MFTL+, not just FTL+, but Relativistic DBZ too. But you're accepting FTL+, saying it makes more sense. Why? Because MFTL is too big and scary for you? There's no reason to accept it according to the issues you have outlined, and if you ignore those issues and go back to your original post, your first post is solved, seeing as how there are no viable contradictory feats later on in the story.

I have been providing reasons and arguing for my position, reacting to your posts and everything. At this point, you're the one supporting a point against mine, because I never claimed FTL+ for anything. You're making the claim that FTL+ is more viable than MFTL despite me giving evidence of the contrary. It's up to you to provide your reasonings— despite me saying the same thing to you over and over again.

You either can't read, refuse to, or don't know what you're talking about. I've demonstrated this in your arguments. You're just gonna run away from the fact that you don't make sense? When I came into this thread with a bunch of arguments— it's MY turn to prove shit again, as if I hadn't?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Amexim has a point though. It's pretty redundant for characters from the Frieza Saga to the Buu Saga to remain at least FTL+ especially when ssj Goku on Namek is 80c if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Amexim]

I love how suddenly I'm the one with no argument, when you have said the same thing over and over, despite me giving evidence at every possible turn.

I say that the MFTL feats in Super are far beyond this, which makes this viable because it never reaches that far up in that tier. You say you were talking about actual dragon Ball z feats, and then say more nonsense that we have proven is false— like how FTL feats are consistent and supported while others aren't. Since day ONE you made the same argument operating under a false assumption that you likely never bothered to go back and confirm— even as you said "maybe i'm missing an MFTL feat". If you bothered to check, you wouldn't support FTL+ either, assuming you wanted to accept the unviable feats I listed above. This is because they contradict both.

Yet, when I point out your reasoning is inconsistent and hypocritical, you try to pretend that you're being unjustly attacked... Sure, I may be unnecessarily pissy, MAYBE, but I figure you're smart enough to know what's going on, which makes me suspicious of you— whether it is in regards to your competence, or your motives, or a mixture of both that results in you not thinking rationally according to some irrational aversion that is inconsistently applied.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"I say that the MFTL feats in Super are far beyond this, which makes this viable because it never reaches that far up in that tier."

Faulty reasoning. Roshi's feat ain't an outlier no more because Z exists?

 

[Amexim]

Roshi's feat is an outlier because it conflicts with other actually viable feats that seem to hard cap characters at placements below moon level, as well as it being done by characters far stronger than him. Even if you take out the last part and imply that it's not so bad, it's inconsistent with every other actual feat shown, with nothing to support the idea that it's viable. False equivalence.

Here, we have no viable feats that contradict it, Cal. Every feat that does contradicts even Relativistic Piccolo, if we take it seriously. Those feats aren't viable, so they don't even place a hard cap on these character's speeds— unlike Roshi Moonbusting. And the multipliers here are literally nothing to the feats later.

Please stop with the double standards.

What's wild here, is that I recall you making a thread about people "abusing" Kaioken Multipliers too— but you're doing the same thing Lance is- instead of using that same reasoning EVERYWHERE it should apply, you're jumping at this because it's "too high" for you. Because multipliers without feats bothers you. You've made that much clear about a year ago with that Kaioken thread disaster, and even more so now, because you're going along with it halfway, but only until it gets "too high" for you. Why do you think it's ok to accept this scaling without feats only to a point?

At least Cal is probably consistent on Dragon Ball, as he has a history of disagreeing with the use of multipliers— albeit for the same bad reasoning here. He's probably only agreeing with FTL or anything because he knows he'll be outnumbered like before.

However, if he did change his position on multipliers, then you can't just pick and choose when to apply it and when not to apply it in situations where it factually applies. Goku is factually superior to his previous version of himself while using the Kaioken multiple times throughout the story. To say "muh feats" to this means the wiki should do that to every statement as well, since they're inconsistent for the same reasons. Hence, a double standard.

Stop trying to make me sound crazy. I know what's going on.

 

[AKM sama]

This thread is not reaching any conclusion. Perhaps using the "Buu saga base Saiyans > 100% Freeza" logic might lead to some result.

 

[Amexim]

I'm fine with that, but it's not 100% accurate. You do realize that you'd get MFTL with Goku going super Saiyan then, right? Making this whole "anti-MFTL" thing literally pointless.

 

[Stefano4444]

I'm fine with that, but it's not 100% accurate. You do realize that you'd get MFTL with Goku going super Saiyan then, right? Making this whole "anti-MFTL" thing literally pointless.

True, but i think the difference here is that Buu Saga Base Goku > Frieza 100% is far harder to debunk and dispute due of the superior amount of evidence/proof in this scenario and also the fact that most people seen to think that such claim far more believable than the 10x Kaioken.

And the only way to deny MFTL speed at that point would be to claim that Super Saiyan Form do not give a 40x Multiplier, but this not only would then make invalid the entire Kaioken Multipliers which the speed of DBZ is based on, but is would be a weak counterargument easily since it was never proven in the series.

 

[Amexim]

The thread isn't going anywhere because all who agree AREN'T staff members, and anyone who agrees isn't staff, so their opinion means nothing. Please drag more staff here before you close the thread.

 

[AKM sama]

Obviously I'm not gonna close any thread just like this. It's going in circles, sure. But the people commenting in this thread are also the same ones again and again. You can message more staff members for input. More input is what this thread needs.

This thread kinda reminds me of a thread I made about Goku resisting Porunga teleporting him. I still stand by it tho ovo

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

You know, I don't think the kaioken statement is too far fetched. After all Goku did train under 100 times earth's gravity, which is ten times stronger than the gravity he's used to, which is 10 times.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Bump.

 

[Amexim]

Listen, why do we even use Multipliers in general— not just for Dragon Ball— if we need feats to support them even if we have them being factually consistent and reliable? If we need Multipliers to have feats backing them up (where a character's increase in power via the multiplier is demonstrated by a feat to corroborate that Multiplier's reliability), because the multiplier being consistent in its linear increases and whatnot isn't enough, then why use Multipliers at all? We get the same information from a feat we would already have to accept the multiplier. Worse, how can we trust that we'll use the multipliers to the end? Because instead of applying them every single time it's called for, we automatically start doubting them at a certain point when they go beyond feats, even though their use is designed for that, and already has been that way.

This example is perfect. We accept FTL, but not MFTL even though it's the same process, just adding in another layer because we didn't apply then all. Despite the fact that there are no FTL feats, we accept the Kaioken being used for FTL Dragon Ball, because, why wouldn't we? All of a sudden, we're against MFTL because of a lack of feats...? When we accepted the Kaioken as valid and used it the same way to get FTL as we got MFTL, without feats for either? The only relevant difference is the speed increase, and that is the only thing being judged, since Lance's first objection was "what feats support this?" Or something. None. No viable ones contradict it either, and it's achieved by the same method the others were.

Literally the purpose of this thread is to add a "POSSIBLY MFTL" to the ratings, under the justification that Goku is extremely likely to be far beyond the hypothetical version of himself (that HE has stated to exist) that uses the KKx10. All these other arguments are needlessly convoluting things, twisting minor flaws to distract from the basic inferences here. They only contradict the inferences based on flimsy technicalities that ultimately mean nothing. It doesn't matter if Power Levels are linear or not, nor is a purely headcanon, based in nothing (not even a statement) KKx15 Ginyu argument even remotely comparable to a statement based, simple, very concrete "possibly".

The facts are this. Even Goku was surprised by how strong he was upon getting out of the healing pod. This, coupled with us knowing that the Kaioken consistently multiplies the PL of the user linearly (it doesn't matter if PLs are linear or not, ignore that, because it's nitpicking and actually trying to force an issue with the scaling into an argument that has nothing to do with that issue), along with Daizenshu numbers, and a bunch of other shit, gives us enough information for a vague "possibly".