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Fissionism Ability Addition (Trying This Again!)
- Thread starter Flashlight237
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Bureaucrat votes do actually have more say than other individual staff members during content revisions, and particularly staff forum threads tied to changing minor wiki policies (such as this one), but they can usually be overruled by a sufficient number of other staff, yes.
If there is a suggestion for a very big change to how our wiki fundamentally works we technically have vetos though, but we extremely seldom use it unless we feel absolutely forced to due to thinking that what is suggested is very harmful for the wiki as a whole, and this is not that kind of revision thread.
However, even so, this is still two bureaucrats and one super moderator (equal to consultants in staff status as I see it) who disagree with this suggestion, so I don't see how it has sufficient consensus behind it to be accepted yet.
If there is a suggestion for a very big change to how our wiki fundamentally works we technically have vetos though, but we extremely seldom use it unless we feel absolutely forced to due to thinking that what is suggested is very harmful for the wiki as a whole, and this is not that kind of revision thread.
However, even so, this is still two bureaucrats and one super moderator (equal to consultants in staff status as I see it) who disagree with this suggestion, so I don't see how it has sufficient consensus behind it to be accepted yet.
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Let me start by saying I already acknowledged that some of my examples could be wrong but they are merely examples I thought off on the spot so ofcourse some would be wrong. Many of us have brought forth brilliant examples so please don't ignore us or dismiss us with an umbrella term (e.g. "biological manipulation", "conceptual manipulation", "reality warping" etc.) ignoring the fact that there are many P&A on this wiki that are under these umbrella terms.
First I will show you how some of my examples match the definition and how your logic isnt applied to every popular P&A here. I will skip over controversial ones because I am not trying to debate why said characters have Fissionism. This is the thread for that. However I will address the blatantly obvious ones.
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FISSIONISM
I was going to show this to @Antvasima before you responded so here is the improved definition for you and everyone to refer to.
Now,
Vegeta
Vegeta does not negate or nullify Moro's powers, He simply separates anything Moro is fused/fusing with. This falls under the definition of Fissionism above.
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Bruno's Zipper
It is complex, this is why we apply two or more abilities to one superpower. Bruno has the power to split things with his zipper, fuse things, and create pocket dimensions, How do you rate that? Easy.
or
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Captain Atom
First of all, An Atom is a Fusion of Subatomic particles. Splitting a Fusion is Fission.
Secondly, There are many variations of matter manipulation. In fact "Splitting atoms" is not technically not one of the criteria on the page itself but thats besides the point. My point is this is not the first time an ability shares similarities with others. This is the same situation with mind manipulation, soul manipulation and many other abilities on wiki
As @Andytrenom says
"A lot of powers have variations in their mechanism and working but are united by the general concept. Such as mind manipulation having the possibility of being biological or metaphysical. So I don't see that point being very relevant."
This is the equivalent of saying Transmutation shouldn't exist because reality-warping exists. Equivalent of saying Fire and Ice manipulation shouldn't exist because they perform the same functions as heat manipulation, so on and so forth.
Have we forgotten that sub-powers of abilities are useful for limited versions of abilities?
Although Captain Atom can do much more than "split atoms", lets assume he can't do other things with matter. You can not say splitting atoms is matter manipulation when it is very limited to what matter manipulation truly is. There is also nothing wrong with Fissionism being under matter manipulation as Fusion is under matter manipulation as well.
This is not a CRT for character abilities so I am not arguing why Captain Atom should have fission. I am arguing that splitting atoms qualifying for Fission since atoms are fusions and it is far too limited for matter manipulation.
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Ben
Agreed, but look at the definition of biological manipulation
Notice how biology manipulation coincides with matter manipulation and body control counts for biological manipulation and we still add body contol to profiles.
Your logic has to pertain to every power and ability on wiki.
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Skipping over controversial/resolved examples to obvious ones because I literally thought them up on the spot. Read the thread you will see perfect examples in line with the definition.
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Buggy
First of all nothing in Body Control talks about the seperating body parts. He has body control from being able to control his body after it is seperated. Seperating Body Parts is Fissionism.
Lets go to his page shall we
Notice how he doesn't have an ability for this text. This is not how an ability should be indexed, dont you agree? Now look at this simple fix.
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lol. i can literally troll other abilities on here too just like you are doing.
THERE ARE MANY OTHER EXAMPLES ON THIS THREAD THAT SATISFY THE DEFINITION AT THE TOP OF THIS POST.
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You, Elizhaa, Confluctor, LordTracer, Andytrenom, and SamanPatou apparently agree with creating this page, whereas DontTalkDT, DarkDragonMedeus, and I disagree with it, so there is not sufficient consensus to apply the change here.
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Does this definition bring you closer to changing your mind? If not how can I change your mind?
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Pikaman
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So... more input?
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It depends on what DontTalk thinks.
I already asked our highest ranking staff members for input. That should be enough.
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I agree with this
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- Thread starter
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Trying to find that example where some AI separates some elements of Cyborg's self from him that was posted on this thread some time ago, but for some reason it's not on this thread any more.
I still think ArnoldStone18 made the best case here myself. Though I will address something here.
@Antvasima , I respect you mate, but you really shouldn't go about putting your thoughts above others in a debate. Sure, you're a bureaucrat, but you're still one person like the rest of the members here, staff or not. Overworked, sure, but still one person nonetheless. It would be less pushy if ya acknowledged the other staff members here a bit more equally. After all, it is just a stupid ability; nothing we need to get all hankered up over.
I still think ArnoldStone18 made the best case here myself. Though I will address something here.
@Antvasima , I respect you mate, but you really shouldn't go about putting your thoughts above others in a debate. Sure, you're a bureaucrat, but you're still one person like the rest of the members here, staff or not. Overworked, sure, but still one person nonetheless. It would be less pushy if ya acknowledged the other staff members here a bit more equally. After all, it is just a stupid ability; nothing we need to get all hankered up over.
PrinceofPein
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Do you have up to 10 characters that should gain this abilities and cannot be argued otherwise?
I mean that is a clear definition of what you are proposing and cannot be said to be another ability entirely like DT has said?
Most of the characters you bring, their abilities can easily fall under another section and it will be equally true.
I mean that is a clear definition of what you are proposing and cannot be said to be another ability entirely like DT has said?
Most of the characters you bring, their abilities can easily fall under another section and it will be equally true.
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Wouldn't Trafalgar law also fall under this? specially shambles
We know his ability is also spatial displacement but he can then fuse multiple different bodies with the main body being able to control the fused body in some cases.
In Granblue Fantasy. one of the notable abilities of the Captain is separating Sky Essence and the concept it has taken form from astral power which is where the Soul, physical body, mind, and spirit came from so it can pass away into the afterlife without the Concept disappearing from the world as well. They did this to the Concept of history Akasha. While the Primarchs used it on themselves so that their death along with their abstract/concept wouldn't result in the world collapsing but they retain all their powers and such.
Scathacha also has this where she separated her malice and hatred alongside most of her power from herself so she will not be consumed by it. This one is written as Mind manipulation and Empathic Manipulation
normally it is written as powernull and immortality negations (12345 8) for captain and Concept manipulation for Primarchs. but this powernull to primal beast outright kills them along with all their powers and I can't really say it's powernull with EE because their true selves as abstract remains but everything else passes away and return to where it came from.
that's the characters I can think off who fits from the OP description
We know his ability is also spatial displacement but he can then fuse multiple different bodies with the main body being able to control the fused body in some cases.
In Granblue Fantasy. one of the notable abilities of the Captain is separating Sky Essence and the concept it has taken form from astral power which is where the Soul, physical body, mind, and spirit came from so it can pass away into the afterlife without the Concept disappearing from the world as well. They did this to the Concept of history Akasha. While the Primarchs used it on themselves so that their death along with their abstract/concept wouldn't result in the world collapsing but they retain all their powers and such.
Scathacha also has this where she separated her malice and hatred alongside most of her power from herself so she will not be consumed by it. This one is written as Mind manipulation and Empathic Manipulation
normally it is written as powernull and immortality negations (12345 8) for captain and Concept manipulation for Primarchs. but this powernull to primal beast outright kills them along with all their powers and I can't really say it's powernull with EE because their true selves as abstract remains but everything else passes away and return to where it came from.
that's the characters I can think off who fits from the OP description
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I usually defer to the opinions of other staff members, and I personally have no big stakes in this particular subject. I am just saying that there is not a sufficient consensus here, and my experience is that DontTalk usually seems to know best in our discussions.
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A lot of our powers (if not half) and abilities can literally be argued to fit an even broader ability.
Depending on the context
Transmutation = Matter manipulation = Reality Warping.
notice how Transmutation could be a specific form of matter manipulation?
notice how matter manipulation could be a more specific form of reality warping?
this logic is irrelevant honestly,
And the solution is obvious. Use the broader abilities for broader scopes of power. We subconsciously do this when we rate with the broadest of abilities (reality warping, Law Manipulation, Conceptual manipulation). For limited versions of the power we use something else (bio manipulation, matter manipulation, time manipulation). For even more limited abilities we have ( Fusion, Fission, time stop).
DT is literally exploiting the existence of broader abilities to counter examples brought by people in support of this ability.
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Honestly, I have gone back and read everything DontTalkDT has said to others concerning the issue
@DontTalkDT are you okay with fusionism page? Because your logic and examples to counter Fissionism, can be perfectly used against Fusionism.
@DontTalkDT are you okay with fusionism page? Because your logic and examples to counter Fissionism, can be perfectly used against Fusionism.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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Turning a human to a bird or a rat is pretty specific form of power. And I can mention at least a 100 pages with this ability and cannot be argued otherwise that it was done via matter manipulation.
Which was why I was asking the OP to list 10 pages that needs the ability and cannot be argued for otherwise
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Biology manipulation.
see… It fits perfectly, I’m sure that’s self explanatory.
Notice how I don’t need to debate why it’s not Matter manipulation, because it is matter manipulation.
if you said human to car. Then that’s transmutation. Would I say Transmutation is not matter manipulation? Of course it is. It can still be applied to Human to ray to bird.
see?
Noticed how I used an ability is broader (biology manipulation) and limited (transmutation) than Matter manipulation.
That’s why I didn’t like @DontTalkDT’s logic with “red manipulation”.
In the end it’s just about who can debate better in this damn thread.
Fissionism is literally the Opposite of Fusionism. It is illogical for one to exist without the other because the same arguments used to say No to Fissionism can be used on Fusionism. I can literally just start a staff discussion rn and nuke Fusionism with the exact same logic and examples as presented by @DontTalkDT. but of course I’m not against the concept of Fusionism because we have made it work. We can make Fissionism work too.
1. Just like Existence Erasure, Fusionism, etc., Fissionism can follow the same principles and ideas.
2. It can solve many indexing problems. Rather than just leaving texts on the profiles.
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And about this problem of ambiguity presented by broader and specific abilities. We all need to find a solution. A proper way to give ratings.
Honestly I think there is an easy solution to this, so I’ll check the rules to see if there is anything there and if there is none I’ll start a thread.
Honestly I think there is an easy solution to this, so I’ll check the rules to see if there is anything there and if there is none I’ll start a thread.
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Yknow, why not just
No need to make a page
Pikaman
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Honesty just feels like a compromise solution that leaves nobody happy but everyone equally disgruntled, it has the fact it doesn’t benefit one side over the other going for it but that’s where the benefits really stop, it doesn’t really fix the concerns of either side
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How do you negate fusions that are not super powers?
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Exactly!
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In that case, as someone else mentioned in a discord server, we should just rework power null page which becomes simply negation. That will cover it. Not that I am a fan of, but it's the only workable solution.
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Fusionism negation...? Really? Yeah. Obviously Fissionism would negate Fusionism, guys. Because it's Fission, which you can undo Fusion with. This is a literal non-point. This doesn't mean it's restricted to ONLY ripping fusions apart. This is genuinely such a dumb train of thought.
It has a similar effect TO power null, but that is literally entirely irrelevant. If it's someone using Fission on a fusion to rip them apart, then it's them using FISSION, NOT POWERNULLING THE FUSION.
It has a similar effect TO power null, but that is literally entirely irrelevant. If it's someone using Fission on a fusion to rip them apart, then it's them using FISSION, NOT POWERNULLING THE FUSION.
Gewsbumpz_dude
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I agree that this should be its own power page, "Fusion Negation" as suggested above doesn't cover it entirely. The power is all about splitting things apart, not just specifically nullifying Steven Universe-esque fusions.
For example; Chucky from Child's Play can split his soul apart with his voodoo magic, allowing him to possess multiple things at once.
For example; Chucky from Child's Play can split his soul apart with his voodoo magic, allowing him to possess multiple things at once.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Well, the problem here is that DontTalk is usually likely our most rational and sensible staff member, so I almost always trust his sense of judgement unless it is an issue that I feel very strongly or am knowledgeable about.
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Gewsbumpz_dude
Username Only- 3,643
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So what?
His points have been addressed and he has yet to respond.
His points have been addressed and he has yet to respond.
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Well, he doesn't have much free time, and has several other, more important, threads to help out was well, so we will have to wait a while further for him to respond.
@DontTalkDT
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So, can someone tell me which exact definition they want to use for this ability?
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NLF, no character can separate truly anything.
Define what a "fusion" is in this context.
Pikaman
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“a thing or things”?
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Better, but if we don't indicate which "thing" then every character that can separate anything could get the ability (which are 99.9% of all on the wiki or like 80% if we additionally require it to be supernatural numbers are rough estimations and not nearly accurate).
By the following text it should probably be specifically "a fusion" (i.e. "a character's supernatural ability to separate a fusion into two or more parts"). Now the question is, what is a fusion? It should not just be any object.
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then we change it to "things" instead of "anything"
Fusion (edit; by the way we should change "anything" to "things" in the Fusionism page)
Are you attacking the definition to prove your point or are you helping us word it better? Cuz im slightly sensing the former.
Anyway, I was going to send the definition to cover everything. So work with this instead. Open to suggestions.
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This, already in the definition, should put these numbers down to far less than 80% for sure lol.
Any characters left proves why they need the ability.
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