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Final Fantasy Discussion Thread

Theglassman12 said:
I don’t really see how Kain would have lost his edge though. The last time we saw him in the original game he’s been training to get rid of his darkness. If anything that’s the exact opposite of being rusty, unless you’re talking about him losing to his dark self which isn’t really meant to be beaten to begin with? Kain and Cecil had to not fight much and accept their dark side to become stronger.
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No, no. I did mean the first argument, but it didn't really hold much water I was aware of that. I was mostly trying to reconcile somehow Ceodore being able to keep up with Kain somewhat when they traveled together, since it struck me as odd Ceodore would start out as a 5-A knight apprentice and such. But maybe Kain remaining as a 5-A and Ceodore being lower is not impossible, dunno. Just throwing ideas.

Hoho? Subjective reality?
 
Honestly they should be much higher than 5-A. Bahamut, and his other versions has some tier 4 feats that could scale to the main characters since they beat him numerous times.
 
Yeah, it shouldn't be impossible. We are considering cross scaling with Ifrit and Leviathan so there shouldn't be limitations with Bahamut.

Which Bahamut has tier 4 feats BTW? Sorry, silly question I can't remember from the top of my head.

On a side note, the DS version has Bahamut flying past several planets in his Summoning sequence, that could be a useful speed feat for the upper end. Though the way they align at the end kinda makes it a bit confusing (though the distance could still be measured by using the diameter of the planets or something eve if the distance isn't the same as in the Solar System)
 
Bahamut and Lunar Bahamut, and even Lunar Ramuh. Long story short both bahamuts create a pocket dimension with stars in the background when they are summoned, which is in line with the 3-D remake summon with even planets shown on top of that, in the Lunar Ruins, Lunar Ramuh makes an entire pocket dimension with the entire planet with a star in it, and Lunar Bahamut makes another pocket dimension in Kain's trial with a moving sun at the very least, knowing how Bahamut is the top tier given we have a statement of him being far stronger than Leviathan, the king of eidolons. And the villains in After Years use Bahamut to their advantage given he's top dog, it's not really an outlier, especially when 5-A scales from gilgamesh, the guy everyone can defeat in their games,
 
Holy crap, I can't believe I completely missed that in the dialogue >_>; Pretty good call there.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the reminder regarding the Pocket Realms. Well, I did bring something similar in a CRT before, but it was disagreed upon on the basis that simply being transported to the starry sky realm isn't enough evidence for tier 4 because the exact origin or detail of the realm isn't clear enough. Granted this was with FFVII where the only mention of the alternate dimensions is that summons draw the enemy to them, but if IV mentions their creation, destruction or show the dimension collapsing then we have a more solid case.

Though... Lunar Ramuh does seem to be a good case, his dimension is there as part of the cutscene and is seemingly gone after his defeat. He calls it his skies and all.

The scaling is pretty clear cut as you say, the game is pretty explicit on how Bahamut is the top dog among the Eidolons as the king and the parties can beat him and his stronger forms.
 
Lunar Ramuh AND Lunar Bahamut have good cases for the pocket dimensions being legit, especially when Bahamut's realm has a moving star in case anyone wants to bring up the whole "the star could be fake and not moving at all" argument.
 
What was told wasn't that the realm wasn't real or that the stars weren't there (that wasn't really questioned), but rather whether it was really created, destroyed, sustained or actually influenced by the Summon and how that could be proven, and not that the Summons simply inhabit a different realm they use to attack. I hit a brick wall there myself, been looking in side materials for a while for more info, but japanese is hard.
 
for FF4 I think it can be valid, given when Ramuh loses the pocket dimension vanishes and they're back in the lunar ruins. So since that's the case, i don't see why the same can't be said for the other summons.
 
oh yeah, there may or may not be a massive speed upgrade for the entire verse if I can get a calc through.
 
@Theglassman12 Yeah, it could be a good argument to use Ramuh in this case.

The True Moon being a creation of the Creator could also be an argument, especially if further context is added.
 
I haven't gotten to that point in the After years yet, I'm literally at the crystal boss gauntlet section which funny enough gives something broken to anyone that has a crystal with them
 
I wasn't talking about it being bad, I'm saying there's a feat with the crystals that makes the characters even more broken if they have a crystal.
 
I know, I was just saying I liked it =P

But you're right, Crystal stuff is always crazy and that part was no exception
 
Well, for one, as well as the humogonous tier jumps they give as the bare minimum and other stuff, lol.

Say on a side not, some stuff I was looking into: there are several statuses that prevent the target from using their abilities, for example, Silence prevents not only magic but any sort of command that requires the use of words or sound (or in FFVII and FFVIII the mind, as magic is used through mental concentration), Curse prevents the use of Limit Breaks (VII, VIII and X) or certain abilities (XIII) when it doesn't affect stats Toad usually prevents the use of any command that isn't attack or item.

On a similar note, Toad and Mini usually minimize the stats of the target, normally attack and defense, and there are some others with similar effects, such as Vit0 in FFVIII and Curse in games that don't use Limit Breaks or Overdrives.

So, resisting those status effects, be it with equipment or other setups, aside Transmutation, Sense Manipulation, Curse Manipulation and the other specific ability related to the particular status effect, would it be valid for Statistics Reduction and Power Nullification?
 
I'm intruding in this thread to ask if someone has an idea of what's Sephiroth's AP in his 3-C key, not necessarily through numbers, even in relation to baseline or something.
 
TartaChocholate said:
Well, for one, as well as the humogonous tier jumps they give as the bare minimum and other stuff, lol.

Say on a side not, some stuff I was looking into: there are several statuses that prevent the target from using their abilities, for example, Silence prevents not only magic but any sort of command that requires the use of words or sound (or in FFVII and FFVIII the mind, as magic is used through mental concentration), Curse prevents the use of Limit Breaks (VII, VIII and X) or certain abilities (XIII) when it doesn't affect stats Toad usually prevents the use of any command that isn't attack or item.

On a similar note, Toad and Mini usually minimize the stats of the target, normally attack and defense, and there are some others with similar effects, such as Vit0 in FFVIII and Curse in games that don't use Limit Breaks or Overdrives.

So, resisting those status effects, be it with equipment or other setups, aside Transmutation, Sense Manipulation, Curse Manipulation and the other specific ability related to the particular status effect, would it be valid for Statistics Reduction and Power Nullification?
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I'd say so. And some more proof Dispel does more than cancel out status effects. Shantotto uses Dispelageddon to null an explosion that would split a continent in 2
 
It's actually a good point, my doubt was if it could be considered for Power Null and Stats Reduction or those two are just a consequence of the status ailment itself.

This also brings up another question I've had for a while, how do we address the common elements and the differences of the shared stuff between entries? For example, spells, abilities and statuses are common between games, but they do have differences between them. I've seen other verses consider something seen in one game as exactly the same in another, but I always thought it was because said ability was indeed almost the same between the two entries.
 
Go by what's in the lore or description of the ability if any. E.G. If Reflect in one game is able to Reflect Physical and Non Physical attacks while reflect in another only does non physical, we should consider them separate as they are directly stated to have a major difference. But if Haste in both games is relatively the same, but the only difference is that one only lasts a couple of seconds in gameplay and the other lasts all battle or say sap has a different health percentage ot takes, then that's negligible and should just be taken as differing game design.

TL;DR case by case
 
FF4 cast are capable of literally dodging the meteor spell, and gilgamesh fought them, not only that but the FF1-6 bosses and gilgamesh fights them, and meteor as a spell is rather consistent across the series in terms of how it's shown and used so it would scale to anyone who uses meteor.
 
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Frigawesome. Would apply to the weakened Shinryu/Shinryu Avatar the Omega and, thanks to Gilgamesh, also to the FFV cast and the FFVIII cast as well.
 
I am still a bit confused on how VII and Tactics scale to Gilgamesh, since he doesn't appear directly in those games, I know in VII's case is because Cloud was transported to Tactics for a while and would scale from that (I actually do have the scan from the Ultimania confirming it), but in Tactics case is it due to scaling from XII or something similar?
 
TartaChocholate said:
I am still a bit confused on how VII and Tactics scale to Gilgamesh, since he doesn't appear directly in those games, I know in VII's case is because Cloud was transported to Tactics for a while and would scale from that (I actually do have the scan from the Ultimania confirming it), but in Tactics case is it due to scaling from XII or something similar?
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Scaling to XII, yeah. Balthier appeared in the Tactics remaster on PSP and Mobile and the Tactics cast can also defeat the Espers that the XII cast fights
 
weirdly enough, FF15 is the only mainline game that doesn't have meteor as a spell, unless there's a DLC that uses the spell, so they wouldn't scale to MFTL+
 
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