Featured Matchup 2! Lightning VS Zygarde

[Kaltias]

@Cal

They are sub-rel, crossing 4 km takes a second

@Kukui

No. They simply use all the abilities

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Problem is, Dragon, it's not. Using one ability out of a myriad of other abilities with the same range, with many that gets damage done, isn't likely. Again, most characters don't time stop from the getgo. And from what I've seen, Lightning, not most FF characters, do.
Not to mention that Stopga also has the same range as the rest of her magics, and with the 4km SBA starting distance, she has to catch up to even use it.

You are completely ignoring strategy and going lolcharacternature. It is a simple counter. Nothing more.

Also SBA says 4km is the max. This would clearly put Light at a disadvantage as such an alternative shall be discussed in the thread. i.e a fair range for both.

The characters start as far away from each other as the highest range of the fighters is, but a maximum of 4 kilometers. If extreme advantages are generated via this distance to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

For one, most leaders e4 members, and champions with the move safeguard usually use it off the bat (I'm recalling Gen III Lance matches right now), which is why I thought that. Plus, it's most useful when used at the start. Stopga, in game, isn't, and is most useful when the opponents ATB bar is almost full. And Safeguard is a moot point right now for two.

Reason I'm bringing them up was because you treat time stop users like that. Like they'll do it as soon as the match starts. For the third time, most do not. Most use h2h combat, or magic spells, or weapons. Very, very few use their hax right away. Lightning is not one of them. Time stopping to counter something as simple as flight is not going to be the first thing to the minds of anyone who doesn't have a profile in another tab. Once Zygarde bypasses at best, a 1 km mark, he's set. Again, it's a really versatile knife vs a sniper rifle. Hundreds of meters to thousands of kilometers.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Cal

They are sub-rel, crossing 4 km takes a second

Flying up just one takes even less.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"For one, most leaders e4 members, and champions with the move safeguard usually use it off the bat (I'm recalling Gen III Lance matches right now), which is why I thought that."

Zygarde is not them though.

"Reason I'm bringing them up was because you treat time stop users like that. Like they'll do it as soon as the match starts."

Yet, they'll use if need be. I also I like how you've suddenly changed your tone with FF time stop when you never once brought this up in the Cloud vs Piedmon fight. But now this is an issue when I'm arguing how we've long treated FF characters. Especially now that Zygarde is in trouble. Strawman or not, this is how I feel fight now.

"Once Zygarde bypasses at best, a 1 km mark, he's set."

Both are equal in speed and can teleport. Closing the distance is not a problem. And not once have you countered resurrection. Eventually Zygarde will wear down if we accept this line of though.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Not to mention.

The characters start as far away from each other as the highest range of the fighters is, but a maximum of 4 kilometers. If extreme advantages are generated via this distance to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.

Meaning the fight starts out hundreds of meters, not 4 kilometers. Otherwise it is an unfair advantage in Zygarde's favor.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Lightning has this due to time manipulation(Stopga and Slowga), Arise/Raise, Odin(due to his power and Zantetsuken causing insta death when it connects), Cure and due to the multiple buffs and debuffs she possesses.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Being aware that's a straw man makes that worse. Especially because my argument was: Cloud could poke and win, and still had Frog, Petrify, and Death, to go with Stop. Stop was your argument. Don't put words in my mouth.

Lighting teleports in the air, she's falling fast.

Zygarde has far more experience than them.

If she can't reach him, resurrection matters not.

Fair enough with the range. I can admit when I'm wrong. That still doesn't stop flying upwards and using signature moves.

 

[Kaltias]

Guys, calm down a bit

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Are we ignoring that Light has a limited supply of energy at her disposal and that after a while of using spells constantly, she'll run out of energy. Even if Light time stops (and let's say it isn't considered a status effect here), she can't fly. It makes sense for Zygarde to fly up to gain altitude advantage, it's an instinctual and logical move. As nobody answered clearly, I assume Light's teleport reaches a few hundred meters only. As that point, with equalized speed, it'd be faster for Light to run towards Zygarde than for her to teleport and by the time she reaches where Zyg had been, he'd already been high in the sky, far enough that her Teleport wouldn't reach. Even if she stops time then, how is she supposed to reach Zyg? She can't fly.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Being aware that's a straw man makes that worse. Especially because my argument was: Cloud could poke and win, and still had Frog, Petrify, and Death, to go with Stop. Stop was your argument. Don't put words in my mouth.

If you didn't agree, why didn't you correct me by say, "Oh, no bud, Cloud doesn't start with Time Stop." No you let it happen. Hence, why I'm finding this bullshit mighty suspect now. I didn't put crap in your mouth. You're the one acting as if Lighting is some strap jawed idiot who doesn't know what skills she has to counters are flying opponent.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I didn't correct you because it didn't matter. Cloud would've won anyway.

Still strawmanning me. Never said that. Because she could try shooting him down, like most people would. Saves energy, as Stopga is far more taxing than Firaga.

 

[Schnee_One]

I feel like Lightning not going with the best option is ridiculous.

 

[The_Everlasting]

That feel when I just realized Moon level Pokemon was supposed to be removed.

How come?

Lina recalculated Groudon's feat at like... City level.

 

[Overlord775]

i don't think that zygarde in-character would just go fly up in the sky and start carpet bombing

 

[Newendigo]

That feel when I just realized Moon level Pokemon was supposed to be removed.

How come?

Lina recalculated Groudon's feat at like... City level.

Link?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

What have I done?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Simply put, Odin. Also why can't she suddenly teleport on top of Zygarde and kill him? Again, range won't help if both are within range. Plus since when has Zygarde just abused range like that.

Yes I am and I'm sorry for that. However, I am also getting my thoughts across as well.

You are forgetting, overclock and Chronostasis that can also be used to close distance. Not to mention the likes of Magnet. If she sees Zygarde spamming, then she'll stop time to gain some distance. Also there is also the fact that Thousand Arrows can be dodged.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

i don't think that zygarde in-character would just go fly up in the sky and start carpet bombing

Why not? It's like having a bird character in a fight and saying "Why would it fly straight up at the beginning?" A creature that can easily fly at any moment would do so, like an instinct of sorts.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Scarlet

Make a vs. match with a Pokemon character.

Those never end well.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

i don't think that zygarde in-character would just go fly up in the sky and start carpet bombing

Why not? It's like having a bird character in a fight and saying "Why would it fly straight up at the beginning?" A creature that can easily fly at any moment would do so, like an instinct of sorts.

There is a keen difference between flying and going around nuking the place. From Kilometers above.

 

[Schnee_One]

If ALL of this arguing comes to an end with one of them no lover being Moon level, I'm done.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ever. As one of the main leads for Pokémon right now, I'm taking that very personally.

@Overlord. That's literally Core Enforcer, the signature move.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

And why can't Light just y'know, dodge? Counter it with her own blasts?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Here it is.

@Cal

Let's be real, Pokemon threads 60% of the time end disastrously.

Remember the last scaling thread?

 

[Schnee_One]

ALL OF THIS!

THIS ENTIRE BLEEPING THREAD

AND ZYGARD ISN'T EVEN MOON LEVEL?!

 

[ScarletFirefly]

So umm...what's the score again? I leave for like some hours and this explodes -_- I'm gonna count the votes again when I'm at work but just to have an idea.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I didn't say Zygarde would carpet-bomb from the get-go. I said he CAN carpet-bomb after seeing it'll help him in the fight. But as he can fly, he will fly, there's no reason he wouldn't. Unless Light's teleport reaches that far, she won't reach Zyg. As a natural response, it makes more sense to attack with elemental attacks first, before teleport-spamming.

I just checked the FF wikia. Odin can't fly.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

THIS ENTIRE BLEEPING THREAD

AND ZYGARD ISN'T EVEN MOON LEVEL?!

Please tell me this isn't the case.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Scarlet

Check the calc I linked a few posts ago.

Probably is the case.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

The calc hasn't even been accepted yet, though. I remember disagreeing with it awhile back.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Dark

I swear I remember it being accepted, but not technically used since Groudon and Kyogre have High 6-A feats anyway.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I will say I apologize for letting my anger effect my judgement...

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

If he goes back to High 6-A, I know the perfect opponent for him.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

If he goes back to High 6-A, I know the perfect opponent for him.

But he's supposed to get bumped to 3-C.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Odin can gallop on air on his Sleipnir mode. And also he's a Sentinel which means he automatically draws all aggro to himself. And as it's said many times, he can inflict instant death.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Oh yeah................................................................

 

[BoomeYang]

Again with the "carpet bombing" argument, jesus christ. It won't be effective thanks to her redirecting said attacks or using Steelguard, how hard is that to understand?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Odin can gallop on air on his Sleipnir mode. And also he's a Sentinel which means he automatically draws all aggro to himself. And as it's said many times, he can inflict instant death.

Finally after 200 comments, someone comments on Odin's caracteristics. So Odin can fly. Then why did nobody mention that before until now, and why isn't it on Light's profile? She has Flight listed, but not in her L'Cie form.

This could have avoided some debate...

 

[PaChi2]

Im done here. Light already won, and id Zygarde is going to be downgraded, well, this should be closed.