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Your point? Also Dante is City Block to Multi-City Block level, with Small City level+ being the slight possibility.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Fate Ishtar's Noble Phantasm downgrade
- Thread starter Qliphoth_Bacikal
- Start date
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Missed my point entirely. Even in cutscenes we never see Dante destroy anything more than some walls. He's only as strong as he is via scaling.AnonymousBlank said:
And even in stuff like Dragon Ball, characters don't planet-bust with every strike. Obviously doens't make them weaker.
You're acting like scaling and AoE aren't a thing.
My point is that the attack destroying a mountain range isn't indicative of it being only mountain-busting.RebubleUselet said:
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@Matt
I don't follow DB but afaik, they have an inverse explanation for not wiping everything around them with Ki control or something like that. AOE and scaling are a thing, firing the actual Venus is not.
I don't follow DB but afaik, they have an inverse explanation for not wiping everything around them with Ki control or something like that. AOE and scaling are a thing, firing the actual Venus is not.
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And assuming it is stronger than that is a textbook No-Limits fallacy.Matthew Schroeder said:
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I never said she fires Venus physically, she fires Venus conceptually, which is why the physical Venus is still there.
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Please explain how that means that the attack is the equivalent of being struck by Venus, if that's the case.Matthew Schroeder said:
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>Doesn't fire Venus
>Still fires Venus
You are gonna have to explain that a bit more.
>Still fires Venus
You are gonna have to explain that a bit more.
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It's not when you understand what the attack actually is and see her attacking it.RebubleUselet said:
@Kaltias
I'm pretty sure that's easily reconcilable with the arrow becoming smaller, or that she wasn't actually larger than the planets, but that it was merely a trick of perspective.
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Which I don't, because the whole "concept of X" thing is almost meaningless without anyting backing it up. Also, you're judging by the visuals again.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Just a reminder that if we keep gameplay/cutscene feats, then Blazblue should be 5-A again
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I mean, is the arrow stated to become smaller or something? Inconsistent visuals are a thing, but if the premise of the calc is "she is firing a planet and blasting people with that", that needs to remain planet sized.
And if when she uses it in lore she nukes a mountain instead of a few continents, it's evident that she isn't actually firing Venus
And if when she uses it in lore she nukes a mountain instead of a few continents, it's evident that she isn't actually firing Venus
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Nps are recreations of Legends
Ishtar's Np is the recreation of her destroying a Mountain range.
Np rank is Anti-Mountain not Anti-Planet
Ishtar's best feat with the attack is nuking Uruk.
Why are we still debating that it's conceptually hitting as hard as the actual Venus would? When it is clearly not that powerful.
Please don't make me write an explanation of how Conceptual Venus shit works from the age of gods...
Ishtar's Np is the recreation of her destroying a Mountain range.
Np rank is Anti-Mountain not Anti-Planet
Ishtar's best feat with the attack is nuking Uruk.
Why are we still debating that it's conceptually hitting as hard as the actual Venus would? When it is clearly not that powerful.
Please don't make me write an explanation of how Conceptual Venus shit works from the age of gods...
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I agree with downgrade.
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Because it's very clearly showing a planetary feat in the visuals? And again, it destroying a mountain and being ranked as anti-mountain doesn't diminush the actual power it has.
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Yeah agree with the downgrade too
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Just a thought, there's nothing to say that a servant can't control the blast radius/yield/size of their noble phantasm scale.
Arjuna, for example, is able to limit the scale of his NP as tight as possible in order to eliminate a group of demon pillars while making sure that he could give his allies a chance to escape.
Current range on Ishtar's Np is 999-??? with a maximum amount of targets at ???
There is a potential that Ishtar theoretically could destroy the planet, but we all know that the World would take measures to prevent such a thing. Thus, she has to limit the scale in a way that the planet will find acceptable.
There are simply too many rules in regards to what a servant can or cannot do on earth. Thus, we can only put on a tacky maybe on what Ishtar can do.
Arjuna, for example, is able to limit the scale of his NP as tight as possible in order to eliminate a group of demon pillars while making sure that he could give his allies a chance to escape.
Current range on Ishtar's Np is 999-??? with a maximum amount of targets at ???
There is a potential that Ishtar theoretically could destroy the planet, but we all know that the World would take measures to prevent such a thing. Thus, she has to limit the scale in a way that the planet will find acceptable.
There are simply too many rules in regards to what a servant can or cannot do on earth. Thus, we can only put on a tacky maybe on what Ishtar can do.
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Just want to point out that there are frequently characters with descriptions that put them waaaaaaay lower than there actual feats. The demon Hekatoncheir from Bayonetta for example is stated to destroy mountains yet he has feats that put him at multi continent level
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Hekatoncheir has High 6-A feats, while Ishtar doesn't have any Tier 5 feats. Yeah...WeeklyBattles said:
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I'm inclined to agree with the downgrades.
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I agree with the downgrade as well
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Ishtar does have have a Low 5-B feat by firing Venus as an attack
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To make it clear: I agree with the downgrade as well.
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@Matt
My point is, not only in the visuals she converts the planet into some sort of energy before firing it, but if it is stated that she is firing a concept, you can't calc that using the GBE of Venus.
A concept doesn't have a GBE, she can use it to smack people because lolfiction, but you can't equate it to firing the actual planet
My point is, not only in the visuals she converts the planet into some sort of energy before firing it, but if it is stated that she is firing a concept, you can't calc that using the GBE of Venus.
A concept doesn't have a GBE, she can use it to smack people because lolfiction, but you can't equate it to firing the actual planet
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WeeklyBattles said:
Pretty sure this is being debunked by the majority of people on this thread. As far as I'm aware several Nasu experts agree that she isn't actually firing Vinus.
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Quite plenty of people here are agreeing with the downgrade here so far.
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Since I didn't actually say it, downgrade at will.
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As it stands now, we don't know if Ishtar possesses the power to:
1. Obliterate the planet
2. Can, but isn't able to because of the planet's defense system and is thus forced to limit it.
3. She can't because she's a useless goddess.
All of the divine spirits we have seen so far are horribly gimped in some way besides Tiamat (Thought even her mats say that she's sub-consciously gimping herself). Skadi is horribly weakened because she's trying to stop Surtr from escaping and Surtr claims to be able to burn the entirety of the world, but he's a different Surtr from our Surt so there's that.
with the next upcoming lostbelts being heavily tailored towards divine spirits and gods, we should get more information then.
1. Obliterate the planet
2. Can, but isn't able to because of the planet's defense system and is thus forced to limit it.
3. She can't because she's a useless goddess.
All of the divine spirits we have seen so far are horribly gimped in some way besides Tiamat (Thought even her mats say that she's sub-consciously gimping herself). Skadi is horribly weakened because she's trying to stop Surtr from escaping and Surtr claims to be able to burn the entirety of the world, but he's a different Surtr from our Surt so there's that.
with the next upcoming lostbelts being heavily tailored towards divine spirits and gods, we should get more information then.
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I'll concede that it's too speculatory on Ishtar's case.
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@Matt: Thank you for understanding at least.
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Hmm...alright so since most say to downgrade than to not, I would take it that Ishtar, and Ere's to an extend since she's scaled to it...somehow, I assume 6-C is fair enough?
Again, the at least 7-A was more of me not knowing where mountain range busting tier goes so...again fair enough?
Again, the at least 7-A was more of me not knowing where mountain range busting tier goes so...again fair enough?
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@Balo I heavily doubt that Ishtar's full power Venus buster is tier 5. Considering Super Surtr who is far above the Norse Kamigami doesn't have any tier 5 feats either. Ereshkigal's NP (which is mountain range level) states that it is in the same ballpark as Ishtar's np as well.
"The same as Ishtar's An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē, but instead of a shot from the great heavens to the great earth, this is the goddess of the underworld's punishment from the great below to the world above. An earth impact that crumbles Mt. Ebih through earthquakes and alterations to the very terrain. While its firepower falls short of Ishtar's venus buster."
"The same as Ishtar's An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē, but instead of a shot from the great heavens to the great earth, this is the goddess of the underworld's punishment from the great below to the world above. An earth impact that crumbles Mt. Ebih through earthquakes and alterations to the very terrain. While its firepower falls short of Ishtar's venus buster."
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I think 6-C is a fair option, yes.
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Idk if this is readable but This is where they idea of her small planet level comes from. Also, by rank scaling if we used CCC encloypedia's index. EX-rank Noble phantasms are considered "Anti-Planet" and Ishtars is A++ just a peg down from that.
Also, she used a spear to destroy Mt. Ebih not her Bow.
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Except no we aren't. If that was the case, Excalibur and everything comparable to it would be Small Planet level.TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
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Fully unsealed Excalibur is definitely Planet level.
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I'm for 6-C Ishtar and Eresh.
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Right now is just a matter of what to write for Ishtar on that. Ere's fine other than downgrading it, but I'm thinking so far that Ishtar's can be something like "Destroyed an entire mountain range in her legend" and the aforementioned scaling of other NP's of similar ranking like Excalibur.
Whichever works best.
Also, I would assume the attack speed of Ishtar's NP is okay to keep? Unlike the AP, I actually have zero problems with keeping that one on her page. I just want to know where everyone has a stance on that real quick before we decide to edit (or is in the process of when I making this comment)
Whichever works best.
Also, I would assume the attack speed of Ishtar's NP is okay to keep? Unlike the AP, I actually have zero problems with keeping that one on her page. I just want to know where everyone has a stance on that real quick before we decide to edit (or is in the process of when I making this comment)
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There's some weird feats for Excalibur at full-power if I recall.
