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Pretty sure she warps it into the modern sky from the Age of Gods. So I'm not sure if the MFTL rating is legit.
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Fate Ishtar's Noble Phantasm downgrade
- Thread starter Qliphoth_Bacikal
- Start date
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- #82
>Reads back mats about it
Oh....
Oh....
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@Ramses
Super Surtr gets heavily gimped because Ophelia destroys her ties to him through the use of her mystic eye that culls possibilities and her Sirius light, an ultimate authority that we ultimately have no idea what it truly does to bring Surtr down into a 'servant' like state.
Skadi also buffs us all to hell and it still takes most of the servants doing suicide attacks to even bring him down.
Super Surtr gets heavily gimped because Ophelia destroys her ties to him through the use of her mystic eye that culls possibilities and her Sirius light, an ultimate authority that we ultimately have no idea what it truly does to bring Surtr down into a 'servant' like state.
Skadi also buffs us all to hell and it still takes most of the servants doing suicide attacks to even bring him down.
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I disagree with the downgrade. Her Noble Phantasm which shoots the concept of venus is not what she destroyed Mt.Ebih with. She used a spear, and not her Bow.
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@UpgradeMan
As I explained previously, that description explains that she is firing a concept, and that's why it's not tier 5.
There are two ways to calculate someone tossing a planet at you, one is KE for speed below that of light, and GBE for FTL stuff.
The problem is, the concept doesn't have mass, nor a GBE, so it's simply unquantifiable.
Also, Authority is reality warping, right? Because in that case it's saying that she is using that to fit the conceptual planet in her bow, so it's even less likely for the planet to have the characteristics of Venus.
As far as downgrading it is concerned, I agree, I'll leave the decision regarding the tier to others because idk Fate
As I explained previously, that description explains that she is firing a concept, and that's why it's not tier 5.
There are two ways to calculate someone tossing a planet at you, one is KE for speed below that of light, and GBE for FTL stuff.
The problem is, the concept doesn't have mass, nor a GBE, so it's simply unquantifiable.
Also, Authority is reality warping, right? Because in that case it's saying that she is using that to fit the conceptual planet in her bow, so it's even less likely for the planet to have the characteristics of Venus.
As far as downgrading it is concerned, I agree, I'll leave the decision regarding the tier to others because idk Fate
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@Ramses
Also, Surtr isn't even heavily insinuated to be a 'top dog'. In fact, the only god he even killed during Ragnarok was Freyr and only exists to throw fire all over the world. All the other gods were too busy dying to other monsters. He only got special attention because he decided to do a team-kill and eat Fenrir for some reason.
Also, Surtr isn't even heavily insinuated to be a 'top dog'. In fact, the only god he even killed during Ragnarok was Freyr and only exists to throw fire all over the world. All the other gods were too busy dying to other monsters. He only got special attention because he decided to do a team-kill and eat Fenrir for some reason.
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Oh I see your point then in that case @Kaltias
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@Balo I know but even without all those things gimping him I doubt he could destroy a planet because that would exceed the power of his sword which is one of the most hyped things.
I disagree about him not being a top dog. He was given a special God Forged Armament by the planet itself to burn down the Norse texture and the Gods. Dude was so powerful that one of the high tier Kamigami (Odin) could only seal him after he took Fenrir's powers. In the original timeline I'm pretty sure he did successfully burn the entire texture and most of the Kamigami.
EDIT: Anyway we are kind of derailing. You can discuss this on my wall or the Nasu thread.
I disagree about him not being a top dog. He was given a special God Forged Armament by the planet itself to burn down the Norse texture and the Gods. Dude was so powerful that one of the high tier Kamigami (Odin) could only seal him after he took Fenrir's powers. In the original timeline I'm pretty sure he did successfully burn the entire texture and most of the Kamigami.
EDIT: Anyway we are kind of derailing. You can discuss this on my wall or the Nasu thread.
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So I take it the speed is kind of an IDK, but AP is for sure been decided.
@Ram: You wanna try editing her or should I? I only got "(Destroyed an entire mountain range in her legend. As an A++ Anti-Mountain range Noble Phantasm, it should be comparable to similar ranked Noble Phantasms such as Excalibur)"
@Ram: You wanna try editing her or should I? I only got "(Destroyed an entire mountain range in her legend. As an A++ Anti-Mountain range Noble Phantasm, it should be comparable to similar ranked Noble Phantasms such as Excalibur)"
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@QB Sure, I'll add her authority and equipment while I'm at it.
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@Kaltias.. a question..
"Also, Authority is reality warping, right? Because in that case it's saying that she is using that to fit the conceptual planet in her bow, so it's even less likely for the planet to have the characteristics of Venus."
wouldn't that require her to have reality warping on the scale of venus to achieve that..? Small planet level range reality warping..?
"Also, Authority is reality warping, right? Because in that case it's saying that she is using that to fit the conceptual planet in her bow, so it's even less likely for the planet to have the characteristics of Venus."
wouldn't that require her to have reality warping on the scale of venus to achieve that..? Small planet level range reality warping..?
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Well the description says that she is using the concept of the planet, so it's a different thing.
What would require small planet scale RW would be shrinking the planet or something, not taking its concept and using it
Manipulating a concept isn't really influenced by how big the object is.
What would require small planet scale RW would be shrinking the planet or something, not taking its concept and using it
Manipulating a concept isn't really influenced by how big the object is.
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I understand better now. Thank you for answering....
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Eresh should probably be in the High 7-A tier instead because it's weaker and there is a pretty big difference in rank.
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High 7-A or at least High 7-A I can go with then for Ere.
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I think it should be downgraded, for reasons involving it being a concept from the Age of the Gods that have already been gone over.
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This should have been done a long time ago but whatever, at least it's being changed even after I raised up similar points in that calc.
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Let me reiterate somethings:
1) I am not agreeing to a downgrade simply because the Noble Phantasm is classified as "Anti-Mountain". I am of the opinion that labels, when they are outclassed by feats, should be disregarded. A statement is all fine and dandy, but a demonstration is always preferable.
2) I am not agreeing to a downgrade because the description of the attack says it destroyed a mountain range. Attack Potency should never be conflated with Area of Effect, even in these cases.
Ishtar's description reminds me of the "Unconquered Sun" character from the Tabletop RPG Game, Exalted. He literally has attacks that can, per the rules of the game, one-shot any player, creature or NPC character in the game, including gods that have Tier 2 feats in the lore. The description of one such attack notes that it destroys mountain ranges and sinks islands.
Authors rarely, if ever, care about the power level of their characters and they tend to write such things just because they think it sounds cool or badass. It's up to us to actually do the in-depth analysis and not rely on descriptions alone.
3) I am not, absolutely not, accepting a downgrade due to the fallacious "Attack animation" attack. This is something that is frequently brought up for numerous franchises, from Final Fantasy to Persona to Dragon Quest to Disgaea to Mugen Souls to a ton of fighting games, etc. Flashy Special Moves animations are practically a staple cliche of the JRPG Genre that's also seeped into other places as well. They are used to demonstrate the power and capability of a character's attack. It makes no sense that the artwork would be completely "metaphorical" if it's through them that we get to see the attack in action.
Not to mention, disregarding visuals in a visual media makes no sense. "An image is worth a thousand words", goes the saying. What is shown is just as valid as what is told, if not more so, as concrete evidence through shown feats will always go above evidence that is told through statements.
I am only supporting this downgrade because I believe that "Shooting the Concept of Venus" is unquantifiable.
1) I am not agreeing to a downgrade simply because the Noble Phantasm is classified as "Anti-Mountain". I am of the opinion that labels, when they are outclassed by feats, should be disregarded. A statement is all fine and dandy, but a demonstration is always preferable.
2) I am not agreeing to a downgrade because the description of the attack says it destroyed a mountain range. Attack Potency should never be conflated with Area of Effect, even in these cases.
Ishtar's description reminds me of the "Unconquered Sun" character from the Tabletop RPG Game, Exalted. He literally has attacks that can, per the rules of the game, one-shot any player, creature or NPC character in the game, including gods that have Tier 2 feats in the lore. The description of one such attack notes that it destroys mountain ranges and sinks islands.
Authors rarely, if ever, care about the power level of their characters and they tend to write such things just because they think it sounds cool or badass. It's up to us to actually do the in-depth analysis and not rely on descriptions alone.
3) I am not, absolutely not, accepting a downgrade due to the fallacious "Attack animation" attack. This is something that is frequently brought up for numerous franchises, from Final Fantasy to Persona to Dragon Quest to Disgaea to Mugen Souls to a ton of fighting games, etc. Flashy Special Moves animations are practically a staple cliche of the JRPG Genre that's also seeped into other places as well. They are used to demonstrate the power and capability of a character's attack. It makes no sense that the artwork would be completely "metaphorical" if it's through them that we get to see the attack in action.
Not to mention, disregarding visuals in a visual media makes no sense. "An image is worth a thousand words", goes the saying. What is shown is just as valid as what is told, if not more so, as concrete evidence through shown feats will always go above evidence that is told through statements.
I am only supporting this downgrade because I believe that "Shooting the Concept of Venus" is unquantifiable.
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The messopotamian Venus from the Age of the Gods is not the literal planet Venus, that's all I'm saying.
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Just gonna say. Lets not forget that Ea is said to be planetary but also said by Da Vinci to only be city level at best because the planet itself has a nerfing safety lock. Ishtars might be planetary, but unless there's a spare planet to destroy, she won't show it.
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What is she being changed to exactly?
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Also, for anyone who thinks that it should be downgraded on rank alone, let me remind you that the concept of planetary destruction itself is only ranked at anti-mountain level
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- Thread starter
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@Iap: 6-C, both from her legend feat and scaling from Excalibur.
Ere, being that her NP is scaled to her's if weaker, will be at High 7-A.
Ere, being that her NP is scaled to her's if weaker, will be at High 7-A.
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Ishtar's NP has never been shown to be planetary by both the feats and statements, so it's very difficult to argue for a 5-B when you need to claim, without any proof, that the concept of Venus possesses 5-B firepower, simply because of ____. Hardly any in-depth analysis there.
Matthew, you made the calc in the first place.
Matthew, you made the calc in the first place.
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I just want to point out that she isn't firing the concept of Venus
Due to being the goddess of Venus she possesses management rights over it so she takes its concepts and creates a conceptual Venus which is then loaded into her ship/bow and fired
Also another thing is that it isn't modern day Venus it is the Venus she ruled in the age of myth she travels to it and then transports her shot to our Era using displacement magecraft
Due to being the goddess of Venus she possesses management rights over it so she takes its concepts and creates a conceptual Venus which is then loaded into her ship/bow and fired
Also another thing is that it isn't modern day Venus it is the Venus she ruled in the age of myth she travels to it and then transports her shot to our Era using displacement magecraft
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Thing is, she's the goddess of the Age of Gids venus. Which is different to the actual planet venus of the Nasuverse, which is, like Gaia, a living thing that probably wouldn't take kindly to a earthling trying to shoot it at something. Age of the Gods Venus would be more like part of the sky's Texture.
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I mean you guys do have a point. Age of Gods Earth is like 6D, so who knows what level venus is
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Aren't all the planets 4-B?
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Depends on the time period
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My point is that even after the calc blog comments and subsequent discussions he didn't change his mind until now, while citing off tangent arguments he agrees with in his decision. It honestly feels like he hasn't really understood what the NP is, does and what Anti-X classification means. The latter is for another discussion, but the former should be understood clearly to see why the 5-B rating was incorrect.
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It's different from the modern Venus in that it doesn't have a will it's still a planet thoughMonarch Laciel said:
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Didnt Ort crash land around 5-thousand years ago? The planets prob had a will at that time already.
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Yeah nevermind you're right I forgot the moon and ort came to earth before the restXenoBreaker2803 said:
Either way though even if the planet has a will ishtar still has authority over it so it's will doesn't matter
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ORT is Type-Mercury not Venus. Type-Venus is the parasite chick who hangs with Gun God.
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I know I was saying that either way ishtar authority would let her do whatever she wanted to venus despite its willAnonymousBlank said:
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Authority over Age of Gods Venus, not over the actual planet with a will, Venus. AoG Venus has no will.
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AoG venus is still venus just at a different timeAnonymousBlank said:
Also it should still have a will considering the Crimson Moon and Mercury both answered Gaias call like 5000 years ago
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I agree with the OP and ramesses. everyone knowledgable about fate disagrees so does this change now? and to what exactly?
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People say that firing the concept of Venus is too vague to give her the current rating
However the thing is she is using the concept of Venus to produce a conceptual planet which I'd then fired
She's not firing venus or the concepts of it but rather a conceptual planet that looks like venus
However the thing is she is using the concept of Venus to produce a conceptual planet which I'd then fired
She's not firing venus or the concepts of it but rather a conceptual planet that looks like venus
