Fate Ishtar's Noble Phantasm downgrade

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I think this is about time to be made for one of the things I wouldn't be able to do unless it had to be done through a thread (like here rn in this case).

So for a long while since I came here half a year ago ish I've been around here mostly doing edits on Fate profiles and chatting about it and other stuff, and one of the things that bogged me that I wasn't sure what to really do with that didn't sit well with me is Ishtar's Noble Phantasm being rated as Small Planet level...when the Noble Phantasm is classed as an Anti-Mountain Class Noble Phantasm.

From my understanding without asking anyone, it seems to me that the profile assumes it is such due to shooting a "conceptual Venus" as a make-shift energy bullet/arrow for Ishtar to shoot at her enemies. My grip with it is that I don't quite feel like that necessarily is the same as hitting or shooting someone with an actual planet..I think. Said main grip, or concern I should properly say, is that this conflicts with what both her in-game profile and FGO Mats profile say about it.

This comment I made her a couple days before our previous year just recently ended (at least of the time this thread is made, that is)

To those that might not be able to read the whole thing, just notice the parts I bolded and you'll see exactly what I mean of this. Plus even in the game itself, the destructive power Ishtar shoots at the main hero part or other doesn't seem that impressive and there's even a certain part throughout Babylonia where she first appears in that states of her legend of blowing up an entire mountain range and while one may argue that AoE doesn't have to be the only thing to determine one's AP (as I've learned a while back on this carefully), I just find it baffling that it's blown up more beyond what it's classed at to such a high tier. Ereshkigal even has her NP rated the same (if lower than Ishtar's) when hers just simply lower the surrounding area to the underworld, where she can utilize her Authority there or some such and that looks just as confusing to fantom than Ishtar's arrow shot.

Conclusion
TL;DR version: I suggest downgrading Ishtar's, and Eresh's Noble Phantasm's to at least 7-A or something.

About the speed, that one I don't have much a problem with if she's shooting from space and it travels that fast to hit someone or something. So MFTL+ An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē I'm fine with. Small Planet level An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē, I'm not.

In case I didn't at all, in any way not make this clear enough, I'll let those who know more on Ishtar better clarify what I'm trying to say here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

She visibly fires the planet Venus as an attack

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Thats just gameplay visuals though. It is her feat of stomping a mountain range/very big mountain into the dirt. I'd say rate it 6-C since it would be around that level and has the same rating as Excalibur. THe ANti-Mountain type is purely lorewise rather than feat.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

While I agree that it should be downgraded, I'm pretty sure it should only be downgraded to 6-C due to the np scaling we use.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Anonymous We use Gameplay visuals for basically every video game verse on this wiki. That's like saying downgrade Sephiroth from 4-B because Supernova is 'just Gameplay visuals'

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

So we are going to disregard its actual feats, descriptions and context and instead use visuals.

Galaxy level Ea when

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So we should give Ishtar the ability to become enormous and a 5-A rating as well? What we see is not how the feat actually goes or she would obliterate everything in the singularity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1. Gameplay Visuals isn't an argument

2. Just because the description says it destroys mountains doesn't mean it can't destroy more, nor does it mean we can't look at its feats. Feats go above statements every time.

3. Relying on Noble Phantasm Rankings over Noble Phantasm feats is folly.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Might as well give every Servant a Low 5-B stamp then.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So we are going to disregard its actual feats, descriptions and context and instead use visuals.
Galaxy level Ea when

Nice fallacy, that's not a real galaxy in Ea. But it's the real planet venus in Ishtar's case. Even the description says she's firing Venus.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Why not SoL as well since Sigurd dodged Holmes' lightshow?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Ramses No, we are going to disregard arbitrary rankings and instead go by what is visible shown to happen

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

>Let's use feats

>Ignores feats and uses visuals

Great

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>Let's use feats
>Ignores feats and uses visuals

Great

The feat:

Ishtar fires Venus as an arrow

How do we know this? From both visuals and descriptions.

The fact that you're actually suggesting that we should entirely disregard all visuals in what is a primarily visual media is mind-boggling.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

The best feat she has is nuking Uruk with the NP. Nothing else.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The best feat she has is nuking Uruk with the NP. Nothing else.

The best feat is she firing the concept of Venus into the opponent as shown in the NP itself.

If a character is shown punching a mountain but there's no statement that he doesn't punched a mountain, did he suddenly not punch the mountain? Because this is basically the extent of what's suggested here.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Uh, what's the proof behind the planet seen being real? I know nothing about the subject, just asking.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Ishtar uses Venus because the planet was associated with her as a symbol/icon of her. She isn't shooting a planet at all.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I find it mind boggling that she has an attack that was based on her destroying a mountain range at such tier.

Seriously if we're going to ignore feats and just go by visuals, why don't we take out the Tier 7B's/A's stats and MHS scaling and just give them Planet level and up and SoL speed?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Uh, what's the proof behind the planet seen being real? I know nothing about the subject, just asking.

The very description explains how the Ishtar, Goddess of Venus, fires the concept of Venus at her opponent as an arrow.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Seriously if we're going to ignore feats and just go by visuals, why don't we take out the Tier 7B's/A's stats and MHS scaling and just give them Planet level and up and SoL speed?

False Equivalency. Her noble phantasm isn't something that scales to anything else she can do whatsoever.

And speaking of Noble Phantasms we should stop ignoring the Pashupata Visuals which are High 6-A.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Uh, what's the proof behind the planet seen being real? I know nothing about the subject, just asking.

The very description explains how the Ishtar, Goddess of Venus, fires the concept of Venus at her opponent as an arrow.

Excuse me, but how is Concept of Venus = Venus itself?

The whole thing is too vague tbh, and yes I agree with the downgrade, so far.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Rebubble: That's wha I want to know...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see how that disproves it? It shows that it is a metaphysical attack as opposed to a physical attack, which makes sense as we're dealing with figures of myth. The potency should be obviously that of Venus itself, as she is literally firing Venus at the enemy. The different is that it's a conceptual-level attack, no difference than stuff in the Masadaverse where people punch each other conceptually.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

From my experience, the word "concept", and those derivating from it, are thrown around in Nasuverse like they're nothing, so they shouldn't hold any weight, kinda like with Omnipotence.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Reposting Lady Ashford's explanation because I'm too lazy to write one myself.

"Regarding Noble Phantasm. FATE - Day 4 states as follow: (translation not by me)

Heroes have various weapon that essentially become as their trademark. These are the crystallization of ideations held by those who desire miracles -- weapon of the highest class, which are sublime fantasies (Noble Phantasm)

I have the original Japanese excerpt but i'd post that later as i can't seemingly post them from a mobile phone.

NPs work because human ideation (stories/fantasies) writes their functionality as some sort of law. Hence why they will achieve what the story/basis/fantasy surrounding a given NP. In Ishtar's particular case, it's how she flatten a mountain range with an object related to her. The thing with Venus is somewhat similar to the Eastern Asian cast of Servant with their syncretism. Ishtar was the goddess of war but she was also the goddess of beauty and fertility, and her existence in one way or another somewhat became the basis of the existence of Venus the goddess of Roman mythology, hence the relation. And we know how in Fate/series how this kind of relationship between individuals from different culture sphere can give someone a certain something just from that relation alone. An example of this is Ushiwakamaru's Eye of Shiva NP, even though the Servant herself doesn't really have any relation to the Hindu God of Destruction in any form"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And? This really doesn't disprove anything. In this case we have a Servant who is literally Ishtar, a Goddess strongly associated with Venus, firing Venus at her opponent on a conceptual-level, which is depicted in visuals as her literally transforming Venus into an arrow after transporting to space.

Overal this person's post doesn't really argue anything other than make a point about "symbolism!"

Of course there's symbolism, most things in Noble Phantasms make references to legends, myths, history, even art, but that doesn't make them not literal attacks that characters use.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

From my experience, the word "concept", and those derivating from it, are thrown around in Nasuverse like they're nothing, so they shouldn't hold any weight, kinda like with Omnipotence.

Or simply put a lot of people have minor Conceptual Manipulation? And I fail to see how Omnipotence being thrown around to mean something other than Absolute Power (Which is very common in fiction) means that another unrelated word is unreliable?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why not SoL as well since Sigurd dodged Holmes' lightshow?

You say this as a jest but ironically the OBD is currently making every Servant FTL. As much as I can understand the reasoning, as the feat they're using to scale is unarguably faster than light, I obiously still disagree with scaling it to every servant ever.

Which is why seeking a middle ground here is the best solution.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

>That doesn't disprove anything

Did you even read the explanation?

Ishtar's NP is not "Firing Venus" It's "Destroying a moutain range with an object related to her"

As the np description itself says

"An Gal T─ü Kigal Shē; it means "from the great heavens towards the great earth." In Sumerian Mythology, it is the most "devastating" and "atrocious" deed that Ishtar carried outÒâ╝Òâ╝Òâ╝Òâ╝from her anecdote of trampling down and annihilating the Sacred Mountain Ebih, which was revered and feared even by the King of Gods, "simply because I am displeased with it." Ishtar forced her way into Mount Ebih, increasing her heavenly might with each step, and in the end, she grabbed a hold of the mountain range's summit and thrusted her spear into the heart of the leyline, causing the Ebih mountain range to collapse. Another name for this is the Jabal Hamrin Breaker.

While in the middle of her Noble Phantasm, she warps to Venus; however, this is not the Venus in the outer space of the modern era's, but rather, the Venus in the outer space during the time of the age of mythology. Afterwards, grabbing (the concept of) Venus and loading it onto her bow as a bullet, the Venus Blaster shoots this Venus that had been turned into a bullet towards the Earth (surface), and from another person's perspective, it casually warps into the modern era's airspace through the utilization of displacement magecraft. The mountain range that was a nuisance to others, even to the Earth and to Venus, is accordingly destroyed by this Venus."

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Is there even any evidence that Venus to the Mesopotamians was a planet?

if no, then An Gal T─ü Kigal should become 7-A or 6-C via scaling

if so, i see no reason why it shouldn't stay Low 5-B, although Ereshkigal's rating is just dumb

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why should what Venus was to the mesopotamians matter? And if you really want to know, to them the planets and the gods were one and the same.

Nasuverse isn't a literal adaptation of Mesopotamian Mythology (Which has Universal feats that would scale to Ishtar, mind you), but a story that takes place in a world where myths are real. It still has a realistic universe with realistic planets.

To argue based on the mythology is like trying to downgrade Disney Zeus by using ancient greek definitions of planets when they're visibly real and realistic in the movie proper.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

You say this as a jest but ironically the OBD is currently making every Servant FTL. As much as I can understand the reasoning, as the feat they're using to scale is unarguably faster than light, I obiously still disagree with scaling it to every servant ever.

Doing this is kinda stupid seeing as its a massive outlier. I wouldn't mind if we got more feats any where near this level but that doesn't change what it is rn. Just like firing Venus.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Uh, yeah, if the attack was actually Low 5-B, it would do far more damage than that, so it's kinda contradicted by the description, according to which said concept only destroyed the mountain range.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Rameses

I have read the explanation, it doesn't disprove anything, it's just a lengthy explanation about symbolism in Noble Phantasms (Thanks, wouldn't ever have realized that without her), but doesn't at all take away from the feat itself.

As for the description, so what again? It says it destroy mountains, yes, but that's not putting a cap on it. And fiction authors often will fail to realize how strong their own characters are and make statements / narrations that put big emphasis on things far beneath their level by feats.

See Final Fantasy as well, where Sephiroth blows up a solar system with Supernova and we have Planetary Summons, but character still act like Bahamut destroying a few buildings is impressive in Advent Children.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Is there even any evidence that Venus to the Mesopotamians was a planet?
if no, then An Gal T─ü Kigal should become 7-A or 6-C via scaling

if so, i see no reason why it shouldn't stay Low 5-B, although Ereshkigal's rating is just dumb

They thought it was another star if iirc but they thought stars were tiny as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Uh, yeah, if the attack was actually Low 5-B, it would do far more damage than that, so it's kinda contradicted by the description, according to which said concept only destroyed the mountain range.

Shall we downgrade literally every single character in fiction whose attacks don't do max collateral damage every time? Because this is simply the Aoe Fallacy.

Dante from Devil May Cry is ranked as Town / City level at his weakest, and yet you spent a huge chunk of his games fighting in-doors, and yet you never even destroy the room you're standing in.

Should Dante be Wall level?

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I always thought her NP was symbolic. Is there actually any proof of her launching the actual planet Venus? I think BlazBlue got downgraded for a similar reason.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I always thought her NP was symbolic. Is there actually any proof of her launching the actual planet Venus? I think BlazBlue got downgraded for a similar reason.

Nope. BlazBlue got downgraded because it was a fodder doing an attack that far outclassed the God-Tier's power, which was stated in-universe with a value of joules.

She is firing the planet Venus on a conceptual level. It's right in the description and visuals.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Matt

The DMC example is a false equivalency. The environment wasn't destructible so it was for all intents and purposes invulnerable.