Eternal Fall (The Lich vs Acererak)

[Peppersalt43]

Only I am Beyond Death's Reach. Only I know the secret to immortality : 7
But I am beyond strength. I am the End : 0
Incon : 0

Speed unequalized (Acerak upscales from 11.66c and The Lich upscales from 12.04c)
The Lich has optional equipment

So with all the buffs the lich got, I thought this'd be a good time to start. Surprised nobody tried it, you'd think some newbie or @Robo432343 would have made this already with how it's a popular MU involving really cracked characters I swear to god if this ends up like the Raikou and Griffith thread I made previously, I will go insane

​

 

[Topaz404]

So uh
Im pretty sure Lich wont be able to find Acererak's phylectary, and even then, isnt Ace liked fused to the Negative Energy Plane? Lich cant even kill Ace, while Ace has all the time in the world to find a way to kill the Lich

Like, i dunno
Wish lol. Im pretty sure Ace can use Wish without the restrictions of the DND system

 

[Aolphl]

2-A vs High 6-A... Interesting

 

[Topaz404]

Acererak could be seen as higher. I would presume this would be at his peak of power
Besides, Ace is haxxed up and pretty hard to put down

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

isnt Ace liked fused to the Negative Energy Plane?

He planned to do that, but didn't complete it.

I will give some thoughts later.

 

[Topaz404]

Well, still, good luck to the Lich trying to find that phylectary

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Speed equalized (Which is a shame because they're really close. 11.66c vs 12.04c. Lich unfortunately blitzed the person who did the feat)

So, first of all (before I bring my scans)

Acererak scales so far above these spells is not even funny. Speed can be unequalized.

Also, does the Lich have the Enchiridion here?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Acererak scales so far above these spells is not even funny. Speed can be unequalized.

Ah, OK

Also, does the Lich have the Enchiridion here?

Depending on how this goes, I might give it to him

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ah, OK

Depending on how this goes, I might give it to him

Without it, Lich can't do a thing to Acererak. As a demilich (notice he's already immune to a wide array of things, requiring specific magic to even affect), to even be damaged, the Lich would need to attack him through 5 planes, which he doesn't seem to have the range for without the Enchiridion.

 

[Peppersalt43]

which he doesn't seem to have the range for without the Enchiridion.

OK then, I'll give it

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Let me preface the following with this: Acererak is a genius asshole of incredible proportions. Not only does he have enough intelligence (27 intelligence) to look at a Beholder (17 intelligence), one of the most paranoid creatures in existence (meaning they can make incredibly elaborate plans to counter virtually any situation, no matter how unlikely), as something lesser than even the way a human (10 intelligence) can see a random crab (1 intelligence), his intelligence enters the realm of the supernatural, which grants him the natural ability to completely predict an opponents actions.

This godly level of intelligence makes Acererak act with the utmost care. Acererak does not go and fight personally (not usually), but instead prefers to act through proxies/avatars/bodies. This is such a case for the Demilich skull. This physical skull is likely from Acererak's original body (stated tied to the dust from his old bones, that were discarded from his physical form). Should be noted however, this skull is not the true Acererak (his true phylactery and essence is beyond the Tomb of Horrors, in the Tower of Conclusion within the Negative Energy Plane/Shadowfell):

How did you develop the concept of a demilich over time?

Bruce: Many people helped develop it over time. In Return to the Tomb of Horrors (a 2nd Edition product) I postulated the original skull was actually a construct that an actual (more powerful) demilich created to serve as the keystone of his horrific tomb.

– Source

So what the Lich will be fighting here is a constructed avatar of Acererak, while his true self is watching, elsewhere. The demilich skull exists within 5 planes of existence (as a construct requiring a weapon of +5 modifier), which means for it to receive damage physically, one needs to attack it across all these planes at the same time. Moreover, this skull is stated immune to virtually all forms of magic, besides specific spells (for the abilities these spells would entail on Vs Battles-lingo: Memory Manipulation, Holy Manipulation, Death Manipulation and Power Nullification). But the skull, as an actual creature, possesses resistance to these abilities. Not only does the skull resist all of these, but in fact, as accepted on the hax layer evaluation thread, these are layered. Specifically, the Demilich skull resistance layers varies from 14 to 18 layers (a base resistance starts at 11, the construct has defenses of 25-29).

With all these being said, the construct skull harbors a ghostly guardian. One who goes on to fight the skull has to contend against a ghost born from the bone-dust of Acererak. Anytime it is attacked, it gives the illusion of being dispersed, but instead the attacker is fueling the apparition, until it manifests fully as a ghost on the Ethereal Plane. The ghost can age a target (which the Lich doesn't care), make it flee in terror (while the Lich normally resists, its resistances seem to be baseline, while a typical ghost in D&D has at its lowest, around 2 layers) or trap its soul (layered).

Note: Undead/souls in D&D predate reality, being formed of entropy, with those like ghosts being among the most powerful, with souls in particular being completely immortal. Beings of similar existences to ghosts include shadows

While the ghost attacks, the demilich skull has abilities of its own it can employ. As shown here, the demilich has a fear aura that can nerf resistances, rays of death energy that renders souls (necrotic energy), as well as the ability to absorb and trap souls within its gems. All of these are layered, of course. When a demilich consumes a soul, its body crumbles away and if the skull its destroyed, the soul also is destroyed.

So the Lich has to contend with this, while Acererak watches. He is in control of both the ghost and the demilich skull. He will want to get information about the Lich, its abilities, its equipment.

And fun fact, the Lich can't even hope to find him. You see, Acererak is adept as making his true form unfindable through divination effects, and not even deities can find something which he wants hidden. Presumably (though not specified), not even beings of this caliber can find him. So neither clairvoyance or cosmic awareness of the Lich can find Acererak. This gives him time to prepare, and boi is he a prep master.

Acererak is capable of creating bodies from those of dead gods and pilot them into combat, while absorbing their divinity to ascend. If he is stopped/destroyed, he immediately goes to his true body and attempts to ascend anyways (note: while he is noted to have the Eye of Vecna here, this is not noted on his profile nor is a normal occurrence), fighting to the end if it comes to it.

Acererak is capable of killing and sealing deities, and while these beings are noted as weak, for being capable of granting spells, they are of similar nature to demi-gods such as Doresain or Hercules. Gods in general have a slew of broken abilities
Note: these blogs are kinda outdated (like Acererak himself), but serve to showcase the kind of beings Acererak can contend with.

Adding to all this, Acererak has access to a Sphere of Annihilation that can erase the Lich and completely kill it (negging its immortality). Alongside it, Acererak has at his disposal an Atropal, to which he can feed the Lich's soul/essence, again negging its immortality and regeneration.

All in all, Acererak (and even his lesser bodies) completely resist the Lich and his abilities save for one (The Enchiridion's plot manip), with a myriad ways he can kill it. And all of this ignores stuff like Far Realm spells (of which he undoubtedly has access to and/or can conjure through Wish).

I'm frankly seeing this as bordering on a stomp, depending on how the Plot Manipulation works. It's quite frankly a mismatch. Either Acererak stomps completely, Enchiridion or not or the Lich himself stomps with plot manip.

-

All of the scans used here with their respective sources can be found here

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

With all these being said, the construct skull harbors a ghostly guardian. One who goes on to fight the skull has to contend against a ghost born from the bone-dust of Acererak. Anytime it is attacked, it gives the illusion of being dispersed, but instead the attacker is fueling the apparition, until it manifests fully as a ghost on the Ethereal Plane. The ghost can age a target (which the Lich doesn't care), make it flee in terror (while the Lich normally resists, its resistances seem to be baseline, while a typical ghost in D&D has at its lowest, around 2 layers) or trap its soul (layered).

Where in DnD was it established that each modifier point represents an additional layer?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Where in DnD was it established that each modifier point represents an additional layer?

Through the fact someone making a save of 13 would resist the ghost ability, while someone who manages to get only a 12 would be affected.

It's the most basic and straightforward layer scaling in the wiki.

This was already accepted here and has been a thing for a few years now. So I'd prefer not wasting time discussing it.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Hm. I thought there might have been a lore reason behind it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hm. I thought there might have been a lore reason behind it.

Read here

 

[TheMassivlyUnkn0wn]

god i think ace needs some explanations on some of the powers on his page, also the list format lich has would be nice-

anyways sphere of annihilation seems like an incredibly safe wincon. though i don't know how lich's HDE will change things. i'm unsure if the enchiridion's plot manip would work in a fight either. though the sphere isn't something he can just launch at the lich, and i couldn't find anything that shows ace resisting the effects of the sphere. so if he touches it himself i assume he'd suffer the same consequences?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

though the sphere isn't something he can just launch at the lich

He can. The sphere is controlled through a talisman Acererak carries.

and i couldn't find anything that shows ace resisting the effects of the sphere. so if he touches it himself i assume he'd suffer the same consequences?

This is true, however.

-

To be kept in mind... If the plot manip doesn't work, the Lich can't even get passed the Ghost and Demilich combo.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, lets continue the discussion

 

[Peppersalt43]

Uh, bump

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You could probably link this on the D&D discussion thread to garner votes

That's if you don't want to wait for clarification on how the Plot Manip from the Lich works

 

[Peppersalt43]

You could probably link this on the D&D discussion thread to garner votes

That's if you don't want to wait for clarification on how the Plot Manip from the Lich works

Huh, I thought it was all just you, Bambu, and Tllmbrg

Honestly I'm worried about the lack of AT supporters that are vouching for the Lich

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Lephyr explained it fine. Acererak has a much better hax game both defensively and offensively, resisting all of the Lich's stuff several layers higher than he can manage and being downright immortal in a way that makes it practically impossible to properly kill him without striking him across many universes simultaneously. His own hax works on a similarly heightened scale, so Acererak can harm the Lich fairly easily, despite the obvious AP disadvantage.

As Lephyr said, the main contention here is the applications of Plot Manipulation and how quickly the Lich would use that, since it is at least feasible that Acererak may spend X amount of time going through ineffectual options in the fight (partly because he's unfamiliar with the Lich and partly because he's a bit of a jokester in-character, being fair). As the fight hinges on that point, I'm uncertain if I really want to even engage with voting just yet. If it's something he can and does pull instantly then the fight is over before it starts, if it's something he might use but doesn't open with then we can debate, and if it's a niche and largely never used thing then Acererak stomps, I think.

 

[Peppersalt43]

As Lephyr said, the main contention here is the applications of Plot Manipulation and how quickly the Lich would use that, since it is at least feasible that Acererak may spend X amount of time going through ineffectual options in the fight (partly because he's unfamiliar with the Lich and partly because he's a bit of a jokester in-character, being fair). As the fight hinges on that point, I'm uncertain if I really want to even engage with voting just yet. If it's something he can and does pull instantly then the fight is over before it starts, if it's something he might use but doesn't open with then we can debate, and if it's a niche and largely never used thing then Acererak stomps, I think.

Got it. Guess now we just wait for the AT supporters then

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Eseseso]

Let me preface the following with this: Acererak is a genius asshole of incredible proportions. Not only does he have enough intelligence (27 intelligence) to look at a Beholder (17 intelligence), one of the most paranoid creatures in existence (meaning they can make incredibly elaborate plans to counter virtually any situation, no matter how unlikely), as something lesser than even the way a human (10 intelligence) can see a random crab (1 intelligence), his intelligence enters the realm of the supernatural, which grants him the natural ability to completely predict an opponents actions.

This godly level of intelligence makes Acererak act with the utmost care. Acererak does not go and fight personally (not usually), but instead prefers to act through proxies/avatars/bodies. This is such a case for the Demilich skull. This physical skull is likely from Acererak's original body (stated tied to the dust from his old bones, that were discarded from his physical form). Should be noted however, this skull is not the true Acererak (his true phylactery and essence is beyond the Tomb of Horrors, in the Tower of Conclusion within the Negative Energy Plane/Shadowfell):

– Source

So what the Lich will be fighting here is a constructed avatar of Acererak, while his true self is watching, elsewhere. The demilich skull exists within 5 planes of existence (as a construct requiring a weapon of +5 modifier), which means for it to receive damage physically, one needs to attack it across all these planes at the same time. Moreover, this skull is stated immune to virtually all forms of magic, besides specific spells (for the abilities these spells would entail on Vs Battles-lingo: Memory Manipulation, Holy Manipulation, Death Manipulation and Power Nullification). But the skull, as an actual creature, possesses resistance to these abilities. Not only does the skull resist all of these, but in fact, as accepted on the hax layer evaluation thread, these are layered. Specifically, the Demilich skull resistance layers varies from 14 to 18 layers (a base resistance starts at 11, the construct has defenses of 25-29).

With all these being said, the construct skull harbors a ghostly guardian. One who goes on to fight the skull has to contend against a ghost born from the bone-dust of Acererak. Anytime it is attacked, it gives the illusion of being dispersed, but instead the attacker is fueling the apparition, until it manifests fully as a ghost on the Ethereal Plane. The ghost can age a target (which the Lich doesn't care), make it flee in terror (while the Lich normally resists, its resistances seem to be baseline, while a typical ghost in D&D has at its lowest, around 2 layers) or trap its soul (layered).

Note: Undead/souls in D&D predate reality, being formed of entropy, with those like ghosts being among the most powerful, with souls in particular being completely immortal. Beings of similar existences to ghosts include shadows

While the ghost attacks, the demilich skull has abilities of its own it can employ. As shown here, the demilich has a fear aura that can nerf resistances, rays of death energy that renders souls (necrotic energy), as well as the ability to absorb and trap souls within its gems. All of these are layered, of course. When a demilich consumes a soul, its body crumbles away and if the skull its destroyed, the soul also is destroyed.

So the Lich has to contend with this, while Acererak watches. He is in control of both the ghost and the demilich skull. He will want to get information about the Lich, its abilities, its equipment.

And fun fact, the Lich can't even hope to find him. You see, Acererak is adept as making his true form unfindable through divination effects, and not even deities can find something which he wants hidden. Presumably (though not specified), not even beings of this caliber can find him. So neither clairvoyance or cosmic awareness of the Lich can find Acererak. This gives him time to prepare, and boi is he a prep master.

Acererak is capable of creating bodies from those of dead gods and pilot them into combat, while absorbing their divinity to ascend. If he is stopped/destroyed, he immediately goes to his true body and attempts to ascend anyways (note: while he is noted to have the Eye of Vecna here, this is not noted on his profile nor is a normal occurrence), fighting to the end if it comes to it.

Acererak is capable of killing and sealing deities, and while these beings are noted as weak, for being capable of granting spells, they are of similar nature to demi-gods such as Doresain or Hercules. Gods in general have a slew of broken abilities
Note: these blogs are kinda outdated (like Acererak himself), but serve to showcase the kind of beings Acererak can contend with.

Adding to all this, Acererak has access to a Sphere of Annihilation that can erase the Lich and completely kill it (negging its immortality). Alongside it, Acererak has at his disposal an Atropal, to which he can feed the Lich's soul/essence, again negging its immortality and regeneration.

All in all, Acererak (and even his lesser bodies) completely resist the Lich and his abilities save for one (The Enchiridion's plot manip), with a myriad ways he can kill it. And all of this ignores stuff like Far Realm spells (of which he undoubtedly has access to and/or can conjure through Wish).

I'm frankly seeing this as bordering on a stomp, depending on how the Plot Manipulation works. It's quite frankly a mismatch. Either Acererak stomps completely, Enchiridion or not or the Lich himself stomps with plot manip.

-

All of the scans used here with their respective sources can be found here

Jesus, Acererak is a damn monster.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Jesus, Acererak is a damn monster.

And I didn't even mentioned stuff like him coming back from becoming a Vestige through possibly a simulacrum

 

[Eseseso]

And I didn't even mentioned stuff like him coming back from becoming a Vestige through possibly a simulacrum

Is that some sort of High Godly Regen/Resurrection?

And is he a Smurf by chance?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Is that some sort of High Godly Regen/Resurrection?

And is he a Smurf by chance?

I don't think it's high godly, because the simulacrum already existed beforehand (so it's not like his information, concept or whatev was erased). But the simulacrum just went and turned itself into the real deal. Because Acererak is just him, I guess.

4-D general stuff, with access to far realm bs

 

[Eseseso]

4-D general stuff, with access to far realm bs

Interesting.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Eseseso]

If I didn't say it before, voting for Acererak for Lephyr's reasons and due to Acererak's immortality/regen.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Counted and thank you!

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[noninho]

acererak FRA

 

[Peppersalt43]

Counted and thank you!

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump