Dungeons and Dragons: CRT and Discussion Thread

[Mr. Bambu]

Purpose

Allow me to say the purpose of this thread is that there is no singular purpose. More clearly put, I aim to correct any wrongs I deem necessary to correct within this thread rather than the Adventurer blog.

My first aims in this thread will be listed here- but due to the rather long list of things that will likely need tidying up, I'm beginning this with a few of the more currently glaring ones. Let's begin, and I'd appreciate if any major D&D person were to subscribe to regularly give their thoughts on the subjects presented, regardless of how brief the thoughts are.

Outsiders and Aberrations
A point I'd like to bring up is that we currently justify Devils as being Type 1 Abstracts based on this rather incredibly blatant quote stating that they are merely abstractions given the illusion of flesh.

However, this same exact quote also says "Just like every other denizen of the Outer Planes". Every Outsider in D&D has this strange physiology made of abstraction as a result of maintaining a higher or lower spiritual states of being. I don't see this being easily denied when we accept it already for Devils and the quote word for word states it applies to all of them.

Aberrations are a different story. Most seem to share the idea that they are creatures from the Far Realm given shape, ideas given form. Based on this, I am tempted to outright award them a form of Inorganic Physiology- but not all of them share this trait. The books define them as anything weird enough to not fit elsewhere.

The Far Realm and Mystara
A long while back in a thread I cannot find, discussion was had regarding the Mystaran Multiverse. To put it frankly, under current cosmology as I understand it, each setting of the game is its own multiverse, often with reflective gods (for example, Orcus and Demogorgon appearing in said Mystaran multiverse). These series of multiverses are connected via the Far Realm. We need to decide on this, I feel.

According to the Mystaran Immortals, beings with intelligences far surpassing any deity or any being in the game, there must exist a higher dimension for each lower one, and thus there are an infinite amount of spatial-temporal dimensions. To be clear, while this has been brought up, I put forth the proposal to outright refer to the Mystaran setting as an infinite dimensional structure. As said above, the Immortals are incredibly intelligent- literally as intelligent as the game will allow. So their math, if they are fairly sure it is correct, should be considered reliable enough. Furthermore, the book from a narrator point of view states they have deduced most of the truth, but lack evidence themselves.

Here are some other supporting factors for an outright 1-A Far Realm. We know the Far Realm is transcendent of this, a world above the realms of space and time. The geometry of this place is completely alien even to the infinite dimensional Mystara. The Far Realm is infinite beyond all concept even of these infinite dimensions. Immortals who can grasp the nature of infinite dimensions and nearly prove the existence of such find the "space" of the Far Realm to be terribly alie. This same quote directly states the Far Realm is that which is outside or above the settings of the game, including Mystara.

TL;DR, I propose outright High 1-B Mystara and 1-A Far Realm the latter fits, too, since the game directly creates a link to Lovecraft by saying certain beings are Cthulhu, Yog, and even Azzy.

This now brings up the issue I have no direct suggestion for: mindhax. Simply put, people use the Far Realm to mindhax regularly. Deities can peer into it and while some go insane, others do not, and even player characters can venture into the realm and manage to remain completely sane (though this is an arduous task). This effectively renders their resistance to such hax as 1-A. I... really don't have a suggestion as to why this is or how to avoid it.

The 4th Edition Problem
As our friendly local Dragonstitch has pointed out again and again, 4th edition D&D is significantly more powerful than other versions. Specifically, it includes the above-mentioned 1-A mind-bending powers at first level, alongside potentially MFTL+ attack speeds, immediate protection from demigod-class beings, so on and so forth. A lot of the links to this are present in my old Adventurer Blog.

What shall we do about this? I don't know. I want some suggestions, honestly. Because I don't know.

What Is Magic?
Another thing that I've been quietly doing in the background that doesn't change anything really. TL;DR Arcane Spellcasting should be considered Reality Warping (other forms may be different). You can read it here for the most part but magic originates from the Spellweave, which covers all of reality with magic users creating effects by essentially pushing the Weave to achieve such an effect.

Based on this alone, an arcane spellcaster should receive Reality Warping as well as Magic. Just a small side-note to the overall CRT.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Here's my thoughts

• Outsiders having Abstract existence is fine imo. All Outsiders are just thoughts given form basically. Far Realm monsters are honestly so weird they have to be given a case by case look.

• This is probably the really big one. This really only effects two profiles at the moment (maybe three if the Father Llymic stuff is made), but it's important cosmology wise. I fully believe that the in-universe sources back the High 1-B rating. 1-A Far Realm is also pretty consistent with it's typical quotes of being outside of time, reality, and being so large that the normal multiverse means nothing to them. If accepted Rad will become just High 1-B and Lumi will be just 1-A for transcending all of the Old Ones

• For 4e I think the most consistent stuff should be used. It's a more combat focused edition so the feats will be higher/better due to that. If something in 4e massively contradicts the other editions it shouldn't be used, but for the most part it should be fine.

• If accepted this shouldn't apply to Mystaraian profiles. Their magic comes from tapping into higher dimensions, not from the spellweave.

As a minor note, if the solid High 1-B/1-A stuff is rejected, I still think Lumi needs a rewrite. His current High 1-C tier works under the basis that he transcends the Far Realm when that isn't implied anywhere. He should just be Low 1-C for 1-C for being either above the Old Ones or transcending the 7th dimension

 

[Dragonstitch]

Yeah on the 4e stuff like the MFTL+stuff overall it would only be a thing for Composite Warlock, and level 16+ for the other classes do to 4e half elves.

Though for all the power links I put on the old Adventurer Blog. I have been meaning to go though and find which powers would give what. Just other things have gotten in the way.

Though for the lowest 9-A feat from 4e looks to be about 2.99 times higher then the 9-B feat they are scaling from right now.

 

[Qawsedf234]

To my knowledge the MFTL+ thing is also undodgable and instead relies on tanking the effects.

 

[Dragonstitch]

Yeah the 2 MFTL+ powers target Will, and Fortitude. So it would not scale to reaction speed outside of 1 power that we deemed would be an outlier for that level, and really would likely be an outlier for everything that is not tier 2.

 

[Skorge1202]

I completely agree with you on the Immortals and their theory/evaluation of the Mystaran Multiverse. Because just like real life physicists and cosmologists research and study the laws, forces and makings of the universe, coming up new hypotheses which can eventually become theories if they become widely accepted or agreed upon, such as the universe being 10 dimensions with string theory, so did the Immortals in the Mystara Multiverse, they all agreed upon that the multiverse has to have an infinite amount of dimensions since each depends on the one "above" it to exist, this came from "Immortal discussions of mathematics, philosophy, and other topics", just like how real life scientists and philosophers would discuss and evaluate, and the Immortals even transcended their dimensions all the way to the 5th dimension which no human in real life can ever do, at least not currently. They were only stopped by a dimensional barricade put in place by the Old Ones, which prevented them from being able to study further, but their intelligence reaches into the supergenius levels and they've been studying for thousands if not millions of years too.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah, I think the largest supporting evidence is that the Immortals can see in five directions and can confirm their theory with the lower dimensions. I don't see why the sixth and higher dimensions should be different considering they're simple geometric spaces.

 

[Skorge1202]

Especially what's stated in "DM's Guide to Immortals". With it also talking about how even though the Immortals achieved transcending past the fourth dimension, they are still nothing compared to the Old One's and how it's just a massive difference in power levels and comprehension between the two groups.

"Similarly, a two-dimensional plus sign can certainly exist alone, but to have real meaning, it must be located within a three-dimensional space from which it may be observed.

The conclusion of this line of reasoning is that any being who perceives a given number of dimensions must exist in a space that has a greater number of dimensions to perceive those dimensions; at least one more and possibly several. From this, it is easily proved that Immortals, who can perceive four dimensions, must exist in five or more.

Immortal discussions of mathematics, philosophy, and other topics led them to this conclusion. They further deduced that an infinite number of dimensions must exist, since each depends on the one "above" it to exist. They have attempted to explore the five obvious dimensions and to discover others." (DMs' Guide to Immortals, Pg. 3)

"With each passing millennium, the Immortals grow ever more awed by the apparently infinite size and variety of this vast creation. Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this. The Immortals call them the Old Ones—beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean." (DMs' Guide to Immortals, Pg. 3)

"But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier." (DMs' Guide to Immortals, Pg. 3)

"Withdrawing themselves into the sixth and higher dimensions, the Old Ones created a type of wall between themselves and the rest of existence. Whenever an Immortal tries to pass beyond the first five dimensions, he or she enters a special realm. Immortals perceive this realm as a whirlpool of infinite size. Made of a watery form of ether." (DMs' Guide to Immortals, Pg. 3)

"This set does not attempt to fully describe the Old Ones. We cannot even fully describe their servants, the Immortals, nor their vast realm of the Multiverse. And no future volume will provide details on the Old Ones, for their powers transcend the framework of any mere game. To reduce them to game terms would trivialize their power, which is of an order far greater than the Immortals'." (DMs' Guide to Immortals, Pg. 5)

 

[Qawsedf234]

To add Pg. 5 also gives reasoning for Lumi to be 1-A

One fact remains for you, as Dungeon Master, to decide. Who are the Old Ones? Are they indeed the greatest and most powerful beings of all? Or perhaps, as they wait secure in their power, do even the Old Ones naively fail to see the most obvious fact of all? Can they really believe that no higher Being watches them?

One who also watches... and waits...

 

[Skorge1202]

Hey I was going to use that one as an argument for why "The Luminous Being" should be at least 1-A. You telepathic?

And there's still

"Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions of millions of assignments like his began and ended. A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, forgiving and harsh. "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" The voice was at once both gentle and admonishing. "They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure." (Waterdeep: The Avatar Series, Book III, Pg. 345, Troy Denning)

And

"SUPERIOR: A luminous being" (Faiths & Avatars, Pg.30)

Along with that it's firmly established throughout all of D&D that the Dungeon Master/Luminous Being, is creative force behind a D&D game and is it's guide and master.

"A Dungeon Master gets to wear many hats. As the architect of a campaign, the DM creates adventures by placing monsters, traps, and treasures for the other players' characters (the adventurers) to discover. As a storyteller, the DM helps the other players visualize what's happening around them, improvising when the adventurers do something or go somewhere unexpected. As an actor, the DM plays the roles of the monsters and supporting characters, breathing life into them. And as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them." (Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide 5th edition, Pg. 4)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bumo

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Transcending High 1-Bs won't make one automatically 1-A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sounds like it from this

There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained.

Transcending a bunch of High 1-Bs and a High 1-B multiverse sounds 1-A under the above definition.

 

[Wokistan]

I didn't go to the last one so I guess I should go to this one

The thing on my wall said that the core subjects are:

• Giving a particular group of beings Type 1 Abstract Existence

• Upgrading Rad to just High 1-B and the Luminous Being to 1-A

• This one is sorta settled already, but its dealing with how cross edition scaling should be taken into account with a particular edition

• Giving magic users in D&D reality warping

So let's get to it

Abstract Existence
Given that this quote is already accepted for this ability on a different species, I think scaling it to the creatures of the Outer Planes that it's said they're similar to is fine. I don't think aberrations would be inherently abstract or inorganic, however.

The Far Realms
If the omniscient 3rd person narrator or whatever has said that their hypothesis is ultimately correct but in verse lacks backing, that would still mean their statements can be used to scale cosmology. As such, High 1-B seems to work. However, due to not knowing the verse I'm not totally sure about 1-A far realm. High 1-B functions sorta similarly to 1-A, in that you could have unimaginably higher orders without leaving the tier. Infinity's a daunting concept, and in all that eternity it wouldn't be impossible to still be bound to some form of dimension while attaining a state totally incomprehensible to "baseline" High 1-B. I suppose the "beyond all time" thing helps given that High 1-B is already established, which means they're free from at least one of the two types of axes there are. As for the mindhax, I disagree with it giving everyone some sorta 1-A potency. Just looking into a 1-A space wouldn't necessarily be some mind destroying thing if the verse doesn't portray it as such, and I think it should still be bound by feats. What's the most geometrically complex mind it's broken?

4th Editio
How exactly is power creep a problem for tierings here? They get higher feats, they get higher ratings, even if it seems weird.

Reality warping for magic
Seems fine, but I don't think it really changes all that much.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As a response

The Far Realms
Here's everything I could find that may back a 1-A rating for the Far Realm

• Far Realm is beyond time 2
• Typically stated as being above the normal cosmology: 1 2 3
• Far Realm is stated as being the end point of existence and on the edge of time and space
• I think its called timeless here but I can't be sure
• Warlocks form packs with Far Realm things to overcome matter and space(?)

The Far Realm is noted as touching every cosmology and that there's only one Far Realm. So it would touch Mystara as well as everything else.

What's the most geometrically complex mind it's broken?

Feat wise 2-A or High 2-A.

4th Editio
Basically the powers in this edition are better than previous and future editions despite being the same multiverse in-lore. For example the basic 9-B fire spell that yields 9-B in all of the other editions gets like 9-A+ in 4e. You also have stuff like MFTL+ spells at the first level, which is something impossible in the other editions outside of the upper tiers.

Reality warping for magic
Yeah it won't change much. Just a better explination of his power

 

[Wokistan]

I can get back to what the far realm actually is a little later, but for the other stuff:

I guess everyone now has 5D mental resistances. Might be weird but it's a thing

Did you guys scale across editions before? If you didn't I don't see the issue with some editions being above others.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I can get back to what the far realm actually is a little later

Okay. I would like to get it hammered out as to what it is, so take your time to figure it out.

Did you guys scale across editions before?

As of now, typically the scaling has been the most consistent idea about stuff across every edition. Like all editions have slightly different variations of the wish spell, but the core idea in every one is warping reality to get a something in the user's favor.

I do think the MFTL+ stuff is usable, since its not dodgeable, other magic attacks don't scale to it speed wise, and its rather weak AP wise and all. But still like the Fire Ball being a tier higher than all other Fire Balls is an issue that would need to be addressed.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Transcending High 1-Bs won't make one automatically 1-A.

I mean

I love DnD but honestly luminous being should just be "at least high 1-B"

 

[Mr. Bambu]

do you ever come into a thread and say anything other than "I love this but I think this should be lower" and then nothing else

 

[Qawsedf234]

I also don't really get it. Since Lumi would transcend the Old Ones and the Multiverse they created, which would be a 1-C or 1-A feat depending on size.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Xulrev]

Luminous One

Luminous One ought to retain the current rating by merit of definition, as Qaw pointed out up above.

4th Editio
I really am just opposed to incorporation of 4e into the regular calcs with the rest of D&D, or if that's too harsh simply giving it an alternate key altogether.

It's blatantly obvious it does not mesh with the rest of the multiverse in-canon due to how its power level is presented. It was too odd a system in its totality that simply wasn't capable of meshing with what the rest of D&D was and is.

At best, it's a period of pure outliers and absurdly random powers, at worst it's just non-cohesive with the consistency of the rest of D&D from my standpoint; there's a reason it got a lot of backlash and 5e was in the pipeline under 4 years after 4e's release imho, but that's nearly an altogether different point.

We dismiss 4e or put it under its own key to differentiate it, is my suggestion at base.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Whatever we decide to hold Mystara as, Lumi will scale above the Far Realm which scales above Mystara.

So if Mystara is High 1-B, which we have narrational confirmation that yes, it is and they were right, Far Realm would be 1-A, Lumi would be higher 1-A.

If Mystara is 5-D for Immortals, 6-D for Dimensional Vortex, Far Realm would be 7-D, Lumi would be 8-D. This is if we ignore the narrational confirmation mentioned above.

I agree with 4e being its own key. The thing is a monstrous beast with 1-A abilities at level 1. Ignoring it isn't an option as it is technically an edition of D&D, but anything too outrageous should be sidelined for the more standard D&D stuff (Dawn War for example is fine, since it just adds to god lore, but outright new stuff is on its own).

 

[Wokistan]

I think far realms being far past mystarra is fine as is, I'm just not sure if it's 1-A or Higher 1-B. Luminous Being transcending it in its totality probably makes it 1-A either way however.

Are the files not separated by editions?

 

[Xulrev]

Are the files not separated by editions?

Not even remotely close, no. We currently utilize an amalgam of sorts, which is partially what led to my recent mega-rant on CR scaling and the like, even though it wasn't something I hammered on.

I can see pros and cons to separation, but the amount of work it would require....

 

[Wokistan]

If 4E is really that much more broken than the rest of the game I suppose having a key specifically for it would be fine. Excluding an entire edition as an outlier seems weird but it's clearly not consistent with the others.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Files use a composite edition with the most consistent elements from each one. If we went by highest showings a lot more people would be 5-B since you can kill a living planet in 4e by level 30.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Pages can't be realistically separated by individual edition. I don't think so, anyways. Currently ost pages are from either 5e or 3.5e, where both editions have a challenge rating and thus can be quantified relatively easily.

 

[Xulrev]

I think 4e having its own key is simply the best way to go about it. It makes the most sense from a meta perspective, and in-verse could be arguably handwaved as afterffects of the Time of Troubles and the invasion of the Shadovar (for Faerun, at least).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm cool with 4e having its own key where such a thing is needed. I dunno if any of the gods had notable 4e lore outside of the Dawn War, but when player profiles get made a note or something should be made regarding 4e content.

Or just an outright different page, at that thought.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So Wok you're in agreement with solid High 1-B Rad and 1-A Lumi?

 

[Dragonstitch]

yeah the 4e gods don't really have a lot of lore. the only things I know that cover them are the books divine powers 1, 2, the FR player book, I think the monster manuals have a few things on them, but overall they if I remember right they do not differ that much from other editions.

Though if we do make 4e it's own key wouldn't their Tier cap at 2-C? Since that is what the 4e's multiverse caps at that. from what I remember. Like The Raven Queen's Original key going from 2-A to 2-C, since 4e nurall would be 2-C

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nah, Raven Queen was downgraded to 2-C because 5th edition totally retconned and changed her lore. Not because of just an edition difference. To my knowledge the Abyss is 2-A in every edition as the plane has an infinite amount of realms with their own space-time. Its just that in 1e/2e every layer was infinite rather than some of them.

So the cap for 4e Gods would still be 2-A. The total 4e cosmology is like 2-A or High 2-A.

 

[Dragonstitch]

Oh right I forgot about the layers of the abyss. Then yeah if you guys are wanting to split off 4e into it's own keys then I am fine with that.

 

[Dragonstitch]

Also something I noticed Orcus's Aspect key did not get his speed changed to the At least Hypersonic+, with High Hypersonic+ reactions ratings.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think 4e needs its own key, just that it has abilities far outside of the standard power curve as most other editions. MFTL+ attacks for 9-B Wizards is outlier-ish, however Demigods having automatic magic defense or a Epic Level Psionic ascending to become a higher dimensional being fits with what we know lore wise and in-universe examples of people doing those things.

 

[Dragonstitch]

yeah Dire radiance's speed does seem outlier-ish, and the other MFTL+ attack is a higher teir being attacking out the warlock so it would not scale to the warlock's attack speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Yea I am fine with High 1-B rad and 1-A lumi