Dungeons and Dragons: CRT and Discussion Thread

[Mr. Bambu]

Mystara is a part of d&d multiverse/creation?

Sort of?

D&D is separated into settings, each of which is distinct from the others, has its own lore, characters, etc. Outside of standard multiverses/settings is the Far Realm, a place of totally alien and non-understandable space. Mystara is one such setting, described as infinite dimensional in its structure. So Lumi's 1-A feat would be...

Viewing the Far Realm as fiction (1-A) -> The Far Realm is transcendent of Mystara to the point that infinite dimensional understanding creatures who live there fail completely to understand even a facet of the Far Realm (At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A) -> The Mystaran Multiverse is infinite dimensional spatially (High 1-B)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Mystara is an adjacent multiverse for the most part. It exists next to the other multiverses but it's its own thing. So while the Far Realm and Luminous Being would scale off of it no one else would.

Although we do scale the LOP to it with the assumption that she can destroy the 5th dimensional space the various multiverses occupy.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So if there's no issues I'm free to upgrade Rad and Lumi correct?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe yes, yes may.

 

[Zeitgeist77]

Where the demon lords have 2A mindhax?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Where the demon lords have 2A mindhax?

4-D and range statement.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

So, what's currently impeding progress within this thread?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Everything but the Aberration stuff has been accepted and 4e is considered useable if it doesn't contradict the other editions.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Even then, normal 4e stuff will probably just end up in a separate profile

coincidentally working through some lore for 3.5e's demon stuff (as I keep occasionally pinging Qawsed with over discord) so expect that some time

 

[Dragonstitch]

I do have a question. Would monster abilities from 4e version of monsters be fine to add to preexisting pages? Like I did find a cr3 goblin that has some basic status effect magic that blinds the target.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Probably wouldn't be bad to add an ability section for things like that.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Also Shouldn't gods have immeasurable speed? The reasons orcus is infinite is he fought in realms beyond time but that's immeasurable

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's not a justification for immeasurable.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I've heard existing before the concept of time is indeed justification for Immeasurable, which deities, demons, etc most certainly did do (see: Pact Primeval lore), just I don't know if that's legit. I assume it's not.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

It is at least for Shar

 

[Qawsedf234]

Shar has been matched by her sister and is weaker than other gods like Hades.

which deities, demons, etc most certainly did do (see: Pact Primeval lore

I get gods since you have stuff like Gaea, Cronus, and the Serpent. But Demons? They were made well after the Multiverse was established.

But honestly I'm just against the rating. Gods have never shown the ability to easily interact with the past and even the insane ones don't do anything. Even the Immortals who are based entirely on geometric dimensions and the space-time continuum have trouble moving through time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Actually, no. The pact primeval states they explicitly existed before linear time was invented and created. Time was created as a measurement of the Lawful beings fighting them so they could keep track of the tanar'ri slain.

Immeasurable is wack, but demons would absolutely scale.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Where is this stated? Because there's like four different versions of the pact and all of them contradict omniscient third person narration statements and the Aboleths.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells.



First, the book establishes from an omniscient narrator point of view that yes, this is factually true.



They then establish that Law rose to challenge Chaos, and the deities that rose with the abstract force invented numbers and time to keep track.



The very first paragraphs talk about how time had not been invented yet and thus they simply fought for an immeasurable amount of time.



This last paragraph mentions the demons being tanar'ri explicitly. In-universe this is supposedly held as true as well, with a written copy of the Pact Primeval being held in Nessus.

 

[Qawsedf234]

First, the book establishes from an omniscient narrator point of view that yes, this is factually true

You mean how it says that there's \contradictions with it and there are other origins for the multiverse? Or that the book further states that Asmodeus' descent from Heaven was not peaceful like the legend suggests. There's also multiple completely contradictory origins with Asmodeus and the Nine Hells because he spreads lies all around the Multiverse.

They then establish that Law rose to challenge Chaos, and the deities that rose with the abstract force invented numbers and time to keep track.

What? The book states that eons had passed. They didn't create time, they created a system to document the passage of time. Things before deities were ever created like Atropus, the 5D brains from Mystara, and the Aboleths were subjected to the progression of time. It doesn't make sense for any of them to have an Immeasurable speed rating.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, it does say there are contradictions, but it also states this text is true. Again, from a narrator's point of view.

I think you're greatly misunderstanding me? I disagree with an Immeasurable rating. I've said so in every post. I'm not pushing for it. I am pointint out that the lore the book itself states as correct says demons have existed since before time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I am pointint out that the lore the book itself states as correct says demons have existed since before time.

But that's the problem. The Tanar'ri explicitly refer to the beings created by the Obyriths, the original inhabitants of the Abyss who fought against the Wind Dukes. Its not possible for the book to be correct about the demons, because they contradict stuff firmly established as being true.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't understand why? While, firstly, I'd point out that the Devils also explicitly refer to all Demons, regardless of species, as Tanar'ri, I also don't understand how that would have anything to do with the others.

Even then, firmly set lore in D&D is subject to change and scrutiny. This doesn't have any effect on stats but still.

 

[Qawsedf234]

While, firstly, I'd point out that the Devils also explicitly refer to all Demons, regardless of species, as Tanar'ri

Because the Obyriths were gone long before the Blood War and the various Demonic Invasions. But that still means that time was a concept long before the Pact Primeval was created and the fall of Asmodeus.

Even then, firmly set lore in D&D is subject to change and scrutiny

Here's my issue then. In various later stuff like the Elder Evils book and future Dragon magazine articles mention the Obyriths. You also have stuff like a Draeden falling asleep in the primordial vacuum of the multiverse and the Abyss forming around it. Time as a concept existed before the Demons or the Devils. The most that could possibly happen is that linear time wasn't finalized until the Titans came around.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I feel like discussions of time in D&D should be its own thread, considering the amount of contradictory information the game presents, to find the most likely one. Looking at all the possibilities I'll concede that the text likely just refers to the measuring of time. Again, for now at least I'm firmly against Immeasurable speed for anybody.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah you got a lot of stuff with authors that have differing ideas with how stuff works. We'll have to work out the kinks as we go.

 

[Dragonstitch]

So I am wondering. If a verse has a connection to D&D by being part 3.5 OGL. Would it be safe to use D&D spells that match up for feats?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally, I think we should avoid using non-WotC products unless we make profiles for that specific thing. If we used any OGL as the basis for spells and feats we will end up getting stuff like the Krustyverse with its 11th Dimensional Omnipresent hypergods.

 

[Dragonstitch]

Okay I should have been more clear. I am meaning if a verse is OGL, and treats a spell say earthquake the same as 3.5's earthquake. would it be safe to make that verse's earthquake a Low 7-C rating to match D&D's version?

 

[Qawsedf234]

If it uses the exact same wording, why not?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

^

If it is the same EQ then at that point it isn't even scaling to D&D, that's just how we work Earthquakes. Low 7-C would be fine.

What's the game btw

 

[Dragonstitch]

Oh it is Iron kingdoms.

The verse started as an OGL game for 3.5, but after moving away for it. they still treat spells closely to the 3.5 versions though they do some times change the names. I used EQ as the example do to lore seems to treat EQ the samejust instead of Fissures, it makes the earth buckle.

 

[Dragonstitch]

but on a different topic. With the idea of splitting 4e stuff into there own pages/keys. when it comes to the Composite Classes (if there are still plans for that) are we going to give the 4e classes there own pages, or would we still have them as a part of the normal Composite Classes we were working on?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Non-contradictory abilities can/will be added to composite classes.

 

[Dragonstitch]

So I do not know if this can be used for scaling stuff. But I ended up finding out in 4e Orcus' strongest avatar has a higher CR then Father Llymic. Keep in mind that when it says Father Llymic's source is the elder evils book. they are talking about the 3.5 book, since 4e never had an elder evils book.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

father llymic wasn't that level in that book, he wasn't even CR 20

 

[Qawsedf234]

Doesn't shock me since 4e Orcus was like CR 40+ like other Demon Lords. Although the most this would do is give his aspect key a higher range.

 

[Dragonstitch]

father llymic wasn't that level in that book, he wasn't even CR 20

I think it is more meaning that the lore of the 4e version is the same as the 3.5 version. Since looking more into it. It seems they just converted the elder evils fights to 4e when the edition was new.

Also on that old Composite Adventurer blog I have been going through what I have linked there and putting what each power gives, or at least the ones I can pick up on.

I have the abilities for the Themes, Spellscared powers, Wizard, Wizard epic destinies, and generic arcane epic destinies done. so everything for the 4e Wizard is done.