Dropping the Riordanverse Tier by smiting it with Zeus' Lightning Bolt

[Mazdoesstuff]

Can Percy get a strength rating for Achilles Curse? He was able to pin down Hades, who is comparable to Poseidon and Zeus, who can literally flip islands (somewhere in the Class P range)

 

[GraveDigger84]

There are a few anti feats here and there but the demigods can consistently clash with giants and titans, who have far higher feats

Outside of giant scaling, there are no solo feats that come remotely close to mountain lifting levels.

Plus, giants are consistently presented as stronger. When Percy gets in the grip of one he is completely helpless.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Outside of giant scaling, there are no solo feats that come remotely close to mountain lifting levels.

Plus, giants are consistently presented as stronger. When Percy gets in the grip of one he is completely helpless.

Percy can also completely halt Porphyrion’s charge, who is stated to be the strongest of them all

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Can Percy get a strength rating for Achilles Curse? He was able to pin down Hades, who is comparable to Poseidon and Zeus, who can literally flip islands (somewhere in the Class P range)

Percy also fought Hyperion with the curse and clashed equally with Kronos in Luke's body, so these are supporting feats

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Percy can also completely halt Porphyrion’s charge, who is stated to be the strongest of them all

The seven clashed with giants all the time. Reyna also fought and grappled with Orion

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Can Percy get a strength rating for Achilles Curse? He was able to pin down Hades, who is comparable to Poseidon and Zeus, who can literally flip islands (somewhere in the Class P range)

I feel like that's an outlier. Curse of Achilles doesn't have seem to have a noticeably drastic increase on your actual stats. It would also make your notion of Annabeth scaling to CoA Luke even worse because it would make her above base Percy.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

The seven clashed with giants all the time. Reyna also fought and grappled with Orion

Yeah Reyna can straight up choke Orion and hold him down. The physically top tier demigods definitely scale to the giants, no question there

 

[GraveDigger84]

Percy can also completely halt Porphyrion’s charge, who is stated to be the strongest of them all

Percy had no weapon – perhaps his sword had been confiscated or lost in the fighting – but he
didn’t let that stop him. As the giant king ran towards Piper, Percy grabbed the tip of Porphyrion’s
spear and forced it down into the ground. The giant’s own momentum lifted him off his feet in an
unintentional pole-vault manoeuvre and he flipped over onto his back.

He kind of just moved Porphyrion's weapon into his own way, letting his momentum carry him over

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

If we can’t find a conclusion for the weak demigods scaling, they can just massively upscale above the Minotaur’s feat of literally throwing cars (Class 5)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I feel like that's an outlier. Curse of Achilles doesn't have seem to have a noticeably drastic increase on your actual stats. It would also make your notion of Annabeth scaling to CoA Luke even worse because it would make her above base Percy.

It definitely do. Percy with the curse was able to solo an entire legion of monsters attacking New York City that required tens of demigods to defend it. And Percy did that effortlessly

 

[GraveDigger84]

If we can’t find a conclusion for the weak demigods scaling, they can just massively upscale above the Minotaur’s feat of literally throwing cars (Class 5)

Class 10 demigods has a lot of backing

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

He kind of just moved Porphyrion's weapon into his own way, letting his momentum carry him over

Him moving the tip is an LS feat regardless, since it did occur in a charge. He needs to overpower Porphyrion’s grip on his spear in order to push it down

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

It definitely do. Percy with the curse was able to solo an entire legion of monsters attacking New York City that required tens of demigods to defend it. And Percy did that effortlessly

Yes, fighting hordes of monsters is easier when they literally can't harm you. Fighting an army of people weaker than you literally comes down to managing your stamina, which is very easy when you literally can't be hindered by injury and don't need to focus on defense. And of course Percy already outscaled those demigods too.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yes, fighting hordes of monsters is easier when they literally can't harm you. Fighting an army of people weaker than you literally comes down to managing your stamina, which is very easy when you literally can't be hindered by injury and don't need to focus on defense. And of course Percy already outscaled those demigods too.

Sure, but Percy wasn't only immune to damage from them, he literally ran through them like it was nothing and killed them effortlessly. Same is true for Hades' dead army

To the point his own power scared him

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Him moving the tip is an LS feat regardless, since it did occur in a charge. He needs to overpower Porphyrion’s grip on his spear in order to push it down

Not necessarily. He's applying force in a perpendicular direction to Poryphion's momentum. A lot easier to do that than if he just pushed him back directly.

 

[GraveDigger84]

Not necessarily. He's applying force in a perpendicular direction to Poryphion's momentum. A lot easier to do that than if he just pushed him back directly.

This + Porphyrion wasn't even aware of him being there at the time, since he was charging at Piper

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

Sure, but Percy wasn't only immune to damage from them, he literally ran through them like it was nothing. Same is true for Hades' dead army

Because they're fodders that he can literally oneshot, before and after the curse. If you can kill them in one clean hit, but they can't hurt you at all, how much do you think you will struggle?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Even if the halting charge is shaky, Reyna can pin down Orion and straight up choke him, and the demigods can all clash blades with the giants, which requires similar LS

 

[GraveDigger84]

Even if the halting charge is shaky, Reyna can pin down Orion and straight up choke him, and the demigods can all clash blades with the giants, which requires similar LS

Orion shouldn't scale to the rest of the giants. And clashing blades sounds like striking, unless they maintain contact and push against each other for a few seconds

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm pretty sure even to change the momentum of such a strong being and redirect his sword you'd need a lot of LS

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Orion shouldn't scale to the rest of the giants. And clashing blades sounds like striking, unless they maintain contact and push against each other for a few seconds

Jason was able to parry Porphyrion briefly

 

[GraveDigger84]

Jason was able to parry Porphyrion briefly

Is blocking a strike considered as LS?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Orion shouldn't scale to the rest of the giants. And clashing blades sounds like striking, unless they maintain contact and push against each other for a few seconds

The clashing typically requires pushing as well. This is why Annabeth’s arm was broken when Kronos clashed with her

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Is blocking a strike considered as LS?

Yes

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Is blocking a strike considered as LS?

Yes. He was stopping his charge with his own LS and resisting his push

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

I'm pretty sure even to change the momentum of such a strong being and redirect his sword you'd need a lot of LS

It wouldn't be the same as Poryphion's lifting strength though. We could probably calc how much force you need to apply from that angle if we can figure out how much force his charge had. If probably wouldn't be Class T but it would be higher than a lot of the other feats.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

First, is there enough consensus to add my discussion rules? I've already drafted them:

==[[Riordanverse]] Rules==

• * As agreed in [[vsforum:threads/131446/|this thread]], do not attempt to upgrade the Greco-Roman gods and those who scale to them to Tier 4 or Tier 3 based on their feats with celestial bodies. Though Percy and Jason described Zeus and Hera's divine forms and Zeus's Master Bolt as supernovae, these are series-typical hyperbole. Hera's breast milk forming the Milky Way and Artemis brightening stars to make a constellation are unquantifiable, as the gods only manipulate supernatural representations of celestial bodies. The ancient Greeks believed the sky to be a literal dome with stars hanging from it that the gods could modify via hax. As corroboration, Apollo stated that the scientific cosmos operates independently of any mythology.
• * As agreed in [[vsforum:threads/138092/|this thread]], do not attempt to upgrade the [[Lifting Strength]] of Greco-Roman demigods and those who scale to them to Class E based on Luke, Annabeth, and Percy lifting Atlas's burden of the sky, which would weigh as much as the Earth's atmosphere in the Riordanverse. Atlas and Artemis also strained to lift it, and Atlas said he wanted the Olympians to suffer under it. Poseidon implies that lifting the sky relies on willpower, not strength, making this feat potentially unquantifiable. Even if accepted, it would be a massive outlier due to these demigods failing to move a six-ton boulder and a twenty-ton statue.

Second, I believe we should revise the note on the giants' pages about their no-limits fallacy of only a god and demigod being able to beat them. The series acknowledges that this ability isn't absolute, as Tartarus's absorption abilities could kill Damasen despite being neither a god nor a demigod. The notes should specify that giants have regeneration that the combination of a god and demigod's powers can negate.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

The discussion rule for Class E is fine, but we don’t need a discussion rule for the star stuff we haven’t even reached a full consensus yet

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

The discussion rule for Class E is fine, but we don’t need a discussion rule for the star stuff we haven’t even reached a full consensus yet

You've yet to demonstrate why they should scale to the star feats at all. Especially when the gods themselves acknowledge they aren't warping literal stars.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

You've yet to demonstrate why they should scale to the star feats at all. Especially when the gods themselves acknowledge they aren't warping literal stars.

Do you have the scan of Apollo saying that the celestial bodies operate independently of mythology?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Do you have the scan of Apollo saying that the celestial bodies operate independently of mythology?

Here, from chapter 16 of The Hidden Oracle.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Here, from chapter 16 of The Hidden Oracle.

This doesn’t necessarily disprove the gods affecting cosmology or celestial bodies; just that they aren’t the sole driving force behind it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Second, I believe we should revise the note on the giants' pages about their no-limits fallacy of only a god and demigod being able to beat them. The series acknowledges that this ability isn't absolute, as Tartarus's absorption abilities could kill Damasen despite being neither a god nor a demigod. The notes should specify that giants have regeneration that the combination of a god and demigod's powers can negate.

Tartarus killed them with scattering (which means he basically reduced them to a point where they are so weakened they can't reform) and absorption, which is hax and thus isn't really connected with AP

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This doesn’t necessarily disprove the gods affecting cosmology or celestial bodies; just that they aren’t the sole driving force behind it.

There's already a plethora of evidence against these star feats. I don't want to have to repeat myself.

• Percy and Jason talking about supernovae are obviously hyperbole.
• The passage explicitly states that Artemis made certain stars brighter, not that she created them. Hera's milk spilling to form the Milky Way has no reason to apply to her AP, as milk and punches are utterly unconnected. As such, even if these feats were legitimate, the first wouldn't nearly be Tier 4 while the second would be Tier 3 environmental destruction only.
• Though Apollo stating that science works independently of divine influence doesn't prove that the gods absolutely don't affect the actual cosmos, it's consistent with Apollo, Artemis, Ra, and other gods affecting supernatural representations of celestial bodies independent of their scientific counterparts, and there's no reason to think the stars are any different. Ancient Greeks envisioned the sky as a dome surrounding the Earth (In case you're wondering, they knew the Earth was round even back then. Christopher Columbus had nothing to do with discovering the Earth's shape) with stars placed into it by the gods, which, per Occam's razor, is what Artemis and Hera are doing. If you disagree, you're the one who has to prove this specific case is different, and we're not the ones who have to disprove it.
• The mist could hide Typhon and the gods as they fought across the US, but it didn't hide the volcanic eruptions and storm cells they caused. If Artemis had indeed manipulated scientific stars, the mist wouldn't hide them from humanity the way it hides the mythological representations from humans who fly higher than the sun and moon chariots, which would've caused mass confusion among astronomers, which no book even suggests happened.
• Nut's body was merely stated to look like it contained galaxies and nebulae, which in no way corresponds to it actually containing them. Also, Riordan's characters are extremely sarcasm-prone, meaning Sadie could easily have been using flowery language, compounded by how KC's framing device is Carter and Sadie recording audio to send to Riordan after the fact, adding the possibility that she exaggerated the details, and Rick's fictional introductory notes even acknowledge this.

Given the wide corroboration of the mythological and scientific bodies being independent of each other, the burden of proof is on you to prove this specific case is different. If you can't conclusively prove that these star feats are explicitly meant to be the gods affecting the scientific cosmos, please stop acting like this debate isn't already settled, and let me add my discussion rules.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Nut's body was merely stated to look like it contained galaxies and nebulae, which in no way corresponds to it actually containing them. Also, Riordan's characters are extremely sarcasm-prone, meaning Sadie could easily have been using flowery language, compounded by how KC's framing device is Carter and Sadie recording audio to send to Riordan after the fact, adding the possibility that she exaggerated the details, and Rick's fictional introductory notes even acknowledge this.

About that, didn't Khonsu said she lost stars to him when she was betting with him for moonlight to make more time?

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

About that, didn't Khonsu said she lost stars to him when she was betting with him for moonlight to make more time?

He didn't. She didn't even lose to him, she won and he claimed the odds were astronomical to win so much from him and then made a pun about her appearance. .

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He didn't. She didn't even lose to him, she won and he claimed the odds were astronomical to win so much from him and then made a pun about her appearance. .

He literally said she's covered in stars

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

He literally said she's covered in stars

Yes? That was what the pun was based on. I was refuting the idea of her losing to him and having to give stars to him.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yes? That was what the pun was based on. I was refuting the idea of her losing to him and having to give stars to him.

She did lose to him, though she may not have given stars to him. She still is filled with them though

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

She did lose to him, though she may not have given stars to him. She still is filled with them though

I never disputed the part about Nut having stars on her, which is covered under my points about the difference between mythological representations of celestial bodies and scientific ones. I specifically targeted galaxies and nebulae because ancient Egyptians never knew about them, so my previous argument doesn't apply. Khonshu, who's a legitimately reliable source about Nut's appearance, only says she has stars, not galaxies and nebulae.