Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

[JJSliderman]

DD should still be 2-A imo.

 

[Omnificence]

DD should still be 2-A imo.

Agreed on that. I mean, adding all those starry skies with their own space and time should make them universes.

 

[Eficiente]

This seems settled down. Medeus is yet to make his comment but hopefully he will have just as much time to evaluate the replies that he will have.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

This seems settled down. Medeus is yet to make his comment but hopefully he will have just as much time to evaluate the replies that he will have.

What are your current thoughts based on what OP has presented? And the continued posts after i supposed lol

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Well, he might as well agree, since he's been in support of every Mario downgrade just like you. You just obviously hate Mario and the idea of him being so powerful.

Mario doesn't scale to any of the stuff that's being discussed here anyway. He needs Dreamy Luigi to reach this level.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Well, he might as well agree, since he's been in support of every Mario downgrade just like you. You just obviously hate Mario and the idea of him being so powerful.

Dawg I only agree on Multi/Multi+ Mario and Uni Base Mario stuff because I think the reasoning and arguments for it are bad, and I’m literally advocating for the Pure Hearts to still be somewhere in the Low Multi range, which is pretty damn strong. I actively didn’t agree with Tier 6 Mario but none of my arguments for Tier 4 Mario passed with Armor so it went along.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Oh, please. Everyone here who's agreed with the proposed changes has been in favor of all the downgrades for the Super Mario Bros in the past. You're obviously listed as a Mario opponent.

Once this revision gets finished I can have that opponent status removed lol. My main reason for opposing the verse is because I disagreed with its higher end interpretations fundamentally and I disliked how Mario & Paper Mario were treated as the same initially. If this revision goes through my main reasons for opposition are up.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Oh, please. Everyone here who's agreed with the proposed changes has been in favor of all the downgrades for the Super Mario Bros in the past. You're obviously listed as a Mario opponent.

Why dwell on the past and do appeal to motive fallacies when we have the current matter to discuss? Why bring up Mario's power when it's irrelevant to the topic that's currently being discussed, thus derailing the thread?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, he might as well agree, since he's been in support of every Mario downgrade just like you. You just obviously hate Mario and the idea of him being so powerful.

Oh, please. Everyone here who's agreed with the proposed changes has been in favor of all the downgrades for the Super Mario Bros in the past. You're obviously listed as a Mario opponent and you even agreed with that downgrade to Tier 6; you and Fuji even admit that you hate Mario in this thread.

Okay. Report us then, if we're so obviously biased against the verse.

 

[Omegabronic]

4-B and 4-A are hell tiers
2nd and 3rd biggest high-low gaps respectively

which is the biggest?

 

[Omnificence]

Dawg I only agree on Multi/Multi+ Mario and Uni Base Mario stuff because I think the reasoning and arguments for it are bad, and I’m literally advocating for the Pure Hearts to still be somewhere in the Low Multi range, which is pretty damn strong. I actively didn’t agree with Tier 6 Mario but none of my arguments for Tier 4 Mario passed with Armor so it went along.

Once this revision gets finished I can have that opponent status removed lol. My main reason for opposing the verse is because I disagreed with its higher end interpretations fundamentally and I disliked how Mario & Paper Mario were treated as the same initially. If this revision goes through my main reasons for opposition are up.

Yeah, I'll only believe that when I see it; until then, I'm not convinced in the slightest. Tier 2-C is nothing special.

 

[SeijiSetto]

which is the biggest?

3-B.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I don't have much to say in terms of my overall stance on the arguments themselves, I think both sides have made some decent points here and there, but I wanted to pop in to say that some of the accusations are unnecessary.

@JTGamer96 Just because someone makes a downgrade for a verse or a character, it doesn't make them quote unquote "haters" or "not liking Mario being powerful.". Like if a downgrade thread is made it's either because the OP saw something which needed correcting, the feats or abilities listed were either inaccurate or a misrepresentation of what's actually shown, or it could because what's presented is no longer applicable to new standards that have been implanted into the system.

You have the right to disagree with the downgrade, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but throwing out accusations of being haters or not like the idea of something being strong doesn't add anything to the discussion and arguments at large

 

[Omnificence]

@JTGamer96 Just because someone makes a downgrade for a verse or a character, it doesn't make them quote unquote "haters" or "not liking Mario being powerful.". Like if a downgrade thread is made it's either because the OP saw something which needed correcting, the feats or abilities listed were either inaccurate or a misrepresentation of what's actually shown, or it could because what's presented is no longer applicable to new standards that have been implanted into the system.

Alright, fine.

Once this revision gets finished I can have that opponent status removed lol. My main reason for opposing the verse is because I disagreed with its higher end interpretations fundamentally and I disliked how Mario & Paper Mario were treated as the same initially. If this revision goes through my main reasons for opposition are up.

Okay. Report us then, if we're so obviously biased against the verse.

You may have won this time, but it's far from over. And I'll only believe what you said when I see it.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Why does it feel like I genuinely entered a mafia show...?

Oh, please. Everyone here who's agreed with the proposed changes has been in favor of all the downgrades for the Super Mario Bros in the past. You're obviously listed as a Mario opponent and you even agreed with that downgrade to Tier 6; you and Fuji even admit that you hate Mario in this thread.

My brother in Christ, they were joking. You can't call people bias or anything of the sort. I mean what's stopping them from saying "You just like seeing Mario strong."? Having your points dismissed because people view you as bias?

The issue is the arguments. You're all over the place. You either make multiple posts repeating yourself (before anyone can respond to you) or bring up points which, as told to you, doesn't work (even outside Mario). You need to compose yourself, maybe contact more supporters for help.

 

[Omnificence]

Why does it feel like I genuinely entered a mafia show...?



My brother in Christ, they were joking. You can't call people bias or anything of the sort. I mean what's stopping them from saying "You just like seeing Mario strong."? Having your points dismissed because people view you as bias?

The issue is the arguments. You're all over the place. You either make multiple posts repeating yourself (before anyone can respond to you) or bring up points which, as told to you, doesn't work (even outside Mario). You need to compose yourself, maybe contact more supporters for help.

Quit insitgating! Its been settled.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Quit insitgating! Its been settled.

Wha—alright—

 

[Omnificence]

Wha—alright—

Thank you.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Also, I think you and Fuji should try calculating or finding the number of stars in these dreams as well as the ACTUAL number of universes in the entire series. I still believe you're all undermining the size of the dreams and the cosmology of the Super Mario series.

There is quite literally no actual ******* way to calculate the exact amount of stars in some of these scene, esp the Dream team section where they blur by. It’s generally below a galaxy’s worth but somewhere in the 4A range, which as discussed is a very wide range of “lots of ******* stars”.

Also we did throw down a general estimate of the count of universes, but that an exact count is something we can’t fully determine until:

1. This CRT goes through
2. Will need to be extensively discussed on what would or wouldnt qualify as its own universe / dimension

We listed at least 10 different universes pretty generously (you can debate if every world in SPM is ACTUALLY an entirely separate dimension, for instance), which should be enough for now. Something like that is a big topic in of itself and should have a crt covering it later, but I think I listed all the notable universes with a confirmable or assumable size.

 

[Omnificence]

There is quite literally no actual ******* way to calculate the exact amount of stars in some of these scene, esp the Dream team section where they blur by. It’s generally below a galaxy’s worth but somewhere in the 4A range, which as discussed is a very wide range of “lots of ******* stars”.

Also we did throw down a general estimate of the count of universes, but that an exact count is something we can’t fully determine until:

1. This CRT goes through
2. Will need to be extensively discussed on what would or wouldnt qualify as its own universe / dimension

We listed at least 10 different universes pretty generously (you can debate if every world in SPM is ACTUALLY an entirely separate dimension, for instance), which should be enough for now. Something like that is a big topic in of itself and should have a crt covering it later, but I think I listed all the notable universes with a confirmable or assumable size.

Which ones?

 

[JJSliderman]

If there are infinite dreams and each dream has its own 4D component, then shouldn’t Dream Depot still be 2-A, and the Void by proxy?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If there are infinite dreams and each dream has its own 4D component, then shouldn’t Dream Depot still be 2-A, and the Void by proxy?

No lol

Having an infinite 4D volume is low 2-C.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

As much as I disagree with this thread you've been pretty obstinate TBH and shooting yourself or the cause to prevent or remediate downgrades in the foot. Just let DDM argue for now.

There doesn't need to be any counts on how many stars there are in the sky it's needlessly complicated and the typical starry sky assumption is good enough and also something to prevent complicated situations like these.

Also, I think you and Fuji should try calculating or finding the number of stars in these dreams as well as the ACTUAL number of universes in the entire series. I still believe you're all undermining the size of the dreams and the cosmology of the Super Mario series.

 

[JJSliderman]

No lol

Having an infinite 4D volume is low 2-C.

Why does having uni amounts of 3D space make a difference at all in this case, it’s still infinite separate 4D spaces that collectively make up the multiverse.

 

[Omnificence]

As much as I disagree with this thread you've been pretty obstinate TBH and shooting yourself or the cause to prevent or remediate downgrades in the foot. Just let DDM argue for now.

There doesn't need to be any counts on how many stars there are in the sky it's needlessly complicated and the typical starry sky assumption is good enough and also something to prevent complicated situations like these.

Did I not just tell you guys to drop it? Why are you still going on about it? Quit it! I'm not arguing about it anymore!

 

[Omegabronic]

Why does having uni amounts of 3D space make a difference at all in this case, it’s still infinite separate 4D spaces that collectively make up the multiverse.

If none of them are low 2-C then it doesn't do anything, these are the standards

 

[Mephistus]

Working with Starsprite on a disagree response by the weekend; since there's a lot to go over. Current thread is clogged with responses. I think skeptically at best I can agree with maybe Dreamy Bowser tier guys getting lower than 2-b depending on the responses; God tiers should scale to 2-a affecting dream worlds though; even if you think some dream worlds are lesser than others.

I'd like to see why you or Kirb disagree with Subcons not being universes? The scans I linked had context in the imgur albums for the upgrade thread I made. I had kind of a tangent in mind on the Dream Depot (not) holding the Subcons on account of it being made by the Star Guardians; which shouldn't predate dreams as a whole. Which is either their creation or dreams that made stuff there. Also if we are using the English version of Mario Party 5 for context clues the Dream Depot is explicitly part of Mario's night sky; which wouldn't usually provide tier 2 for the dream world cosmological structure since it's just usually more 3D space held in 3D space.

 

[JJSliderman]

If none of them are low 2-C then it doesn't do anything, these are the standards

The standards just don’t make sense then, the only difference between a uni sized space with a 4D component and an MSS space with a 4D component is the amount of 3D, which ultimately doesn’t matter if there’s an infinite amount of the spaces.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

The standards just don’t make sense then, the only difference between a uni sized space with a 4D component and an MSS space with a 4D component is the amount of 3D, which ultimately doesn’t matter if there’s an infinite amount of the spaces.

that’s a matter that would have to be settled directly with a wiki wide change, not really something that would matter or be arguable here. I’d recommend starting a thread for a policy change if you want to bring your issue forward.

Working with Starsprite on a disagree response by the weekend; since there's a lot to go over. Current thread is clogged with responses. I think skeptically at best I can agree with maybe Dreamy Bowser tier guys getting lower than 2-b depending on the responses; God tiers should scale to 2-a affecting dream worlds though; even if you think some dream worlds are lesser than others.

I'd like to see why you or Kirb disagree with Subcons not being universes? The scans I linked had context in the imgur albums for the upgrade thread I made. I had kind of a tangent in mind on the Dream Depot (not) holding the Subcons on account of it being made by the Star Guardians; which shouldn't predate dreams as a whole. Which is either their creation or dreams that made stuff there. Also if we are using the English version of Mario Party 5 for context clues the Dream Depot is explicitly part of Mario's night sky; which wouldn't usually provide tier 2 for the dream world cosmological structure since it's just usually more 3D space held in 3D space.

I’m pretty sure we didn’t bring up Subcon stuff because we thought the evidence didn’t really favor it being universal, and iirc not much of it is actually currently accepted in the wiki, the main arguments being what’s in MP5 and Dream Team

 

[Mephistus]

I’m pretty sure we didn’t bring up Subcon stuff because we thought the evidence didn’t really favor it being universal, and iirc not much of it is actually currently accepted in the wiki, the main arguments being what’s in MP5 and Dream Team

The Subcon arguement used for the upgrade thread was already accepted by multiple mods for individual dreams being universal.

If you don't have a response for that as Fuji said then I'll just repost it to refresh everyone's minds:

There exist as many Subcons for as many dreamers in existence as stipulated in-game during BS Super Mario Bros USA (this is the English translation of the Japanese audio):
"Narrator: Subcon, the land of dreams. A long time ago in this land [audio gap] thanks to the actions of these four. Wart had his mouth filled with many vegetables and was kicked out of Subcon. However, there was not just one Subcon. There are as many Subcons as there are people's dreams, and Wart was secretly moving from dream to dream, causing trouble."

Every Subcon is indicated to be a universe in its own right based on the individual Subcon dream world that Mario had actively brought back to its peaceful and normal state.

There are realistic cosmic stars held within these parallel Subcons, as indicated by the official game guide with levels without stars and a moon and shown for levels with a moon and stars.

Citations:
https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros._2_Inside_Out
https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Subcon arguement used for the upgrade thread was already accepted by multiple mods for individual dreams being universal.

If you don't have a response for that as Fuji said then I'll just repost it to refresh everyone's minds:

There exist as many Subcons for as many dreamers in existence as stipulated in-game during BS Super Mario Bros USA (this is the English translation of the Japanese audio):
"Narrator: Subcon, the land of dreams. A long time ago in this land [audio gap] thanks to the actions of these four. Wart had his mouth filled with many vegetables and was kicked out of Subcon. However, there was not just one Subcon. There are as many Subcons as there are people's dreams, and Wart was secretly moving from dream to dream, causing trouble."

Every Subcon is indicated to be a universe in its own right based on the individual Subcon dream world that Mario had actively brought back to its peaceful and normal state.

There are realistic cosmic stars held within these parallel Subcons, as indicated by the official game guide with levels without stars and a moon and shown for levels with a moon and stars.

Citations:
https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros._2_Inside_Out
https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia

Out of everything listed here, the only thing that supports universal size is the one offhanded comment about “bringing peace to the universe”, but every other screenshot for this guide explicitly refers to Subcons as “dream worlds”. Considering that affecting Subcons has an affect on the real world and Wart, as shown by BS SMBUSA can reach and mess with multiple Subcons, that affecting the dreams of people throughout the world / universe would disrupt the peace of the universe, not the dream world, but the main universe where people have their dreams? And defeating Wart would restore said peace? The only piece of evidence supporting Subcon / dream worlds being a universe being an offhand line from a tip book from the 80s is a little wild, especially if it’s what carries an entire multiversal cosmology.

(Post is from Kirb, he's just busy at work rn)

 

[CloverDragon03]

What the hell did I come back to...?

I mainly just wanna note that whenever a size for individual dreams is decided, I'd like to be notified so I can update the cosmology summary blog we currently use for Dream Team.

 

[Da3ggman]

Dark days for us Mario fans…

 

[Omnificence]

Dark days for us Mario fans…

We'll get 'em next time, bud; at least I brought back Mario's Power Star key. And I got a couple aces up my sleeves.

 

[Nero415]

Jesus Christ Mario can't catch a break with these downgrades

 

[Omnificence]

Jesus Christ Mario can't catch a break with these downgrades

Don't worry, dude; the changes haven't been applied yet. We're still waiting for DDM and Starsprite's input, anyway, and like I said, I got some aces up my sleeves.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump?

 

[Omnificence]

Bump?

I’m pretty sure we didn’t bring up Subcon stuff because we thought the evidence didn’t really favor it being universal, and iirc not much of it is actually currently accepted in the wiki, the main arguments being what’s in MP5 and Dream Team

BTW, the Dream Depot would be Low 2-C for adding and combining infinite starry skies with their space-time together, not High 3-A. Logically speaking, you're not only expanding the matter in a universe by doing that, but also it's space and time. See, this is why I warned you guys multiple times you need to take into account the contents of these dreams.

That's all I wanted to say.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

BTW, the Dream Depot would be Low 2-C for adding and combining infinite starry skies with their space-time together, not High 3-A. Logically speaking, you're not only expanding the matter in a universe by doing that, but also it's space and time. See, this is why I warned you guys multiple times you need to take into account the contents of these dreams.

That's all I wanted to say.

Didn’t we already discuss that and agree it was probably fine, assuming that an infinite amount of 4A spacetimes being contained in one area being L2C is fine?

I can’t really think of any franchises which have something like this as a frame of reference and idk if anything like this is covered in the standards so I’m not 100% sure lol. It would essentially just add on a single extra universe to the 2C rating for the Void though, so about 11 universes.

 

[Omnificence]

Didn’t we already discuss that and agree it was probably fine, assuming that an infinite amount of 4A spacetimes being contained in one area being L2C is fine?

Uh, no? This is what you said:

I wouldn't be against this as a compromise if its deemed that an infinite quantity of dreamers results in just specifically Future Dream being H3A due to it being a cumulative dream about space. It would simply add one more universe to the count of the Void's destruction then.

You never said anything about the space-time. Hence, this is why I told you multiple times you should take into account the contents of things.

No offense. Just gonna leave that there.