- 6,070
- 1,867
DD should still be 2-A imo.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
- Start date
- Status
- 2,365
- 1,523
Agreed on that. I mean, adding all those starry skies with their own space and time should make them universes.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,934
What are your current thoughts based on what OP has presented? And the continued posts after i supposed lol
- 2,818
- 1,712
Mario doesn't scale to any of the stuff that's being discussed here anyway. He needs Dreamy Luigi to reach this level.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,934
Dawg I only agree on Multi/Multi+ Mario and Uni Base Mario stuff because I think the reasoning and arguments for it are bad, and I’m literally advocating for the Pure Hearts to still be somewhere in the Low Multi range, which is pretty damn strong. I actively didn’t agree with Tier 6 Mario but none of my arguments for Tier 4 Mario passed with Armor so it went along.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,934
Once this revision gets finished I can have that opponent status removed lol. My main reason for opposing the verse is because I disagreed with its higher end interpretations fundamentally and I disliked how Mario & Paper Mario were treated as the same initially. If this revision goes through my main reasons for opposition are up.
- 2,818
- 1,712
Why dwell on the past and do appeal to motive fallacies when we have the current matter to discuss? Why bring up Mario's power when it's irrelevant to the topic that's currently being discussed, thus derailing the thread?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #249
Okay. Report us then, if we're so obviously biased against the verse.
- 12,124
- 4,364
which is the biggest?
- 2,365
- 1,523
Yeah, I'll only believe that when I see it; until then, I'm not convinced in the slightest. Tier 2-C is nothing special.
Last edited:
- 2,341
- 2,140
3-B.
- 6,568
- 8,920
I don't have much to say in terms of my overall stance on the arguments themselves, I think both sides have made some decent points here and there, but I wanted to pop in to say that some of the accusations are unnecessary.
@JTGamer96 Just because someone makes a downgrade for a verse or a character, it doesn't make them quote unquote "haters" or "not liking Mario being powerful.". Like if a downgrade thread is made it's either because the OP saw something which needed correcting, the feats or abilities listed were either inaccurate or a misrepresentation of what's actually shown, or it could because what's presented is no longer applicable to new standards that have been implanted into the system.
You have the right to disagree with the downgrade, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but throwing out accusations of being haters or not like the idea of something being strong doesn't add anything to the discussion and arguments at large
@JTGamer96 Just because someone makes a downgrade for a verse or a character, it doesn't make them quote unquote "haters" or "not liking Mario being powerful.". Like if a downgrade thread is made it's either because the OP saw something which needed correcting, the feats or abilities listed were either inaccurate or a misrepresentation of what's actually shown, or it could because what's presented is no longer applicable to new standards that have been implanted into the system.
You have the right to disagree with the downgrade, everyone's entitled to their opinions, but throwing out accusations of being haters or not like the idea of something being strong doesn't add anything to the discussion and arguments at large
- 2,365
- 1,523
Alright, fine.
You may have won this time, but it's far from over. And I'll only believe what you said when I see it.
- 305
- 326
Why does it feel like I genuinely entered a mafia show...?
My brother in Christ, they were joking. You can't call people bias or anything of the sort. I mean what's stopping them from saying "You just like seeing Mario strong."? Having your points dismissed because people view you as bias?
The issue is the arguments. You're all over the place. You either make multiple posts repeating yourself (before anyone can respond to you) or bring up points which, as told to you, doesn't work (even outside Mario). You need to compose yourself, maybe contact more supporters for help.
My brother in Christ, they were joking. You can't call people bias or anything of the sort. I mean what's stopping them from saying "You just like seeing Mario strong."? Having your points dismissed because people view you as bias?
The issue is the arguments. You're all over the place. You either make multiple posts repeating yourself (before anyone can respond to you) or bring up points which, as told to you, doesn't work (even outside Mario). You need to compose yourself, maybe contact more supporters for help.
- 2,365
- 1,523
Quit insitgating! Its been settled.
- 305
- 326
Wha—alright—
- 2,365
- 1,523
Thank you.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,934
There is quite literally no actual ******* way to calculate the exact amount of stars in some of these scene, esp the Dream team section where they blur by. It’s generally below a galaxy’s worth but somewhere in the 4A range, which as discussed is a very wide range of “lots of ******* stars”.
Also we did throw down a general estimate of the count of universes, but that an exact count is something we can’t fully determine until:
1. This CRT goes through
2. Will need to be extensively discussed on what would or wouldnt qualify as its own universe / dimension
We listed at least 10 different universes pretty generously (you can debate if every world in SPM is ACTUALLY an entirely separate dimension, for instance), which should be enough for now. Something like that is a big topic in of itself and should have a crt covering it later, but I think I listed all the notable universes with a confirmable or assumable size.
- 2,365
- 1,523
Which ones?
- 6,070
- 1,867
If there are infinite dreams and each dream has its own 4D component, then shouldn’t Dream Depot still be 2-A, and the Void by proxy?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #262
- 5,341
- 6,084
As much as I disagree with this thread you've been pretty obstinate TBH and shooting yourself or the cause to prevent or remediate downgrades in the foot. Just let DDM argue for now.
There doesn't need to be any counts on how many stars there are in the sky it's needlessly complicated and the typical starry sky assumption is good enough and also something to prevent complicated situations like these.
There doesn't need to be any counts on how many stars there are in the sky it's needlessly complicated and the typical starry sky assumption is good enough and also something to prevent complicated situations like these.
- 6,070
- 1,867
Why does having uni amounts of 3D space make a difference at all in this case, it’s still infinite separate 4D spaces that collectively make up the multiverse.
- 2,365
- 1,523
Did I not just tell you guys to drop it? Why are you still going on about it? Quit it! I'm not arguing about it anymore!
- 12,124
- 4,364
If none of them are low 2-C then it doesn't do anything, these are the standards
Mephistus
Username Only- 1,034
- 794
Working with Starsprite on a disagree response by the weekend; since there's a lot to go over. Current thread is clogged with responses. I think skeptically at best I can agree with maybe Dreamy Bowser tier guys getting lower than 2-b depending on the responses; God tiers should scale to 2-a affecting dream worlds though; even if you think some dream worlds are lesser than others.
I'd like to see why you or Kirb disagree with Subcons not being universes? The scans I linked had context in the imgur albums for the upgrade thread I made. I had kind of a tangent in mind on the Dream Depot (not) holding the Subcons on account of it being made by the Star Guardians; which shouldn't predate dreams as a whole. Which is either their creation or dreams that made stuff there. Also if we are using the English version of Mario Party 5 for context clues the Dream Depot is explicitly part of Mario's night sky; which wouldn't usually provide tier 2 for the dream world cosmological structure since it's just usually more 3D space held in 3D space.
I'd like to see why you or Kirb disagree with Subcons not being universes? The scans I linked had context in the imgur albums for the upgrade thread I made. I had kind of a tangent in mind on the Dream Depot (not) holding the Subcons on account of it being made by the Star Guardians; which shouldn't predate dreams as a whole. Which is either their creation or dreams that made stuff there. Also if we are using the English version of Mario Party 5 for context clues the Dream Depot is explicitly part of Mario's night sky; which wouldn't usually provide tier 2 for the dream world cosmological structure since it's just usually more 3D space held in 3D space.
Last edited:
- 6,070
- 1,867
The standards just don’t make sense then, the only difference between a uni sized space with a 4D component and an MSS space with a 4D component is the amount of 3D, which ultimately doesn’t matter if there’s an infinite amount of the spaces.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,934
that’s a matter that would have to be settled directly with a wiki wide change, not really something that would matter or be arguable here. I’d recommend starting a thread for a policy change if you want to bring your issue forward.
I’m pretty sure we didn’t bring up Subcon stuff because we thought the evidence didn’t really favor it being universal, and iirc not much of it is actually currently accepted in the wiki, the main arguments being what’s in MP5 and Dream Team
Mephistus
Username Only- 1,034
- 794
The Subcon arguement used for the upgrade thread was already accepted by multiple mods for individual dreams being universal.
If you don't have a response for that as Fuji said then I'll just repost it to refresh everyone's minds:
There exist as many Subcons for as many dreamers in existence as stipulated in-game during BS Super Mario Bros USA (this is the English translation of the Japanese audio):
"Narrator: Subcon, the land of dreams. A long time ago in this land [audio gap] thanks to the actions of these four. Wart had his mouth filled with many vegetables and was kicked out of Subcon. However, there was not just one Subcon. There are as many Subcons as there are people's dreams, and Wart was secretly moving from dream to dream, causing trouble."
Every Subcon is indicated to be a universe in its own right based on the individual Subcon dream world that Mario had actively brought back to its peaceful and normal state.
There are realistic cosmic stars held within these parallel Subcons, as indicated by the official game guide with levels without stars and a moon and shown for levels with a moon and stars.
Citations:
https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros._2_Inside_Out
https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #271
Out of everything listed here, the only thing that supports universal size is the one offhanded comment about “bringing peace to the universe”, but every other screenshot for this guide explicitly refers to Subcons as “dream worlds”. Considering that affecting Subcons has an affect on the real world and Wart, as shown by BS SMBUSA can reach and mess with multiple Subcons, that affecting the dreams of people throughout the world / universe would disrupt the peace of the universe, not the dream world, but the main universe where people have their dreams? And defeating Wart would restore said peace? The only piece of evidence supporting Subcon / dream worlds being a universe being an offhand line from a tip book from the 80s is a little wild, especially if it’s what carries an entire multiversal cosmology.
(Post is from Kirb, he's just busy at work rn)
- 13,228
- 21,043
What the hell did I come back to...?
I mainly just wanna note that whenever a size for individual dreams is decided, I'd like to be notified so I can update the cosmology summary blog we currently use for Dream Team.
I mainly just wanna note that whenever a size for individual dreams is decided, I'd like to be notified so I can update the cosmology summary blog we currently use for Dream Team.
- 2,365
- 1,523
We'll get 'em next time, bud; at least I brought back Mario's Power Star key. And I got a couple aces up my sleeves.
Dark days for us Mario fans…
Last edited:
- 2,365
- 1,523
Don't worry, dude; the changes haven't been applied yet. We're still waiting for DDM and Starsprite's input, anyway, and like I said, I got some aces up my sleeves.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
- Thread starter
- #277
Bump?
- 2,365
- 1,523
BTW, the Dream Depot would be Low 2-C for adding and combining infinite starry skies with their space-time together, not High 3-A. Logically speaking, you're not only expanding the matter in a universe by doing that, but also it's space and time. See, this is why I warned you guys multiple times you need to take into account the contents of these dreams.
That's all I wanted to say.
Last edited:
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
- 6,934
Didn’t we already discuss that and agree it was probably fine, assuming that an infinite amount of 4A spacetimes being contained in one area being L2C is fine?
I can’t really think of any franchises which have something like this as a frame of reference and idk if anything like this is covered in the standards so I’m not 100% sure lol. It would essentially just add on a single extra universe to the 2C rating for the Void though, so about 11 universes.
- 2,365
- 1,523
Uh, no? This is what you said:
You never said anything about the space-time. Hence, this is why I told you multiple times you should take into account the contents of things.
No offense. Just gonna leave that there.
- Status
