Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]

[SYPHe5D]

You still wanna list them?

I think you should let DDM take care of things and the other supporters as well for now.

 

[Omnificence]

I think you should let DDM take care of things and the other supporters for now.

Okay

 

[Omnificence]

Wait a second...

I would appreciate it if you people read the Universe page on the wiki:

• If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

If all the dreams that enter the Dream Depot are galaxy-sized, and they have their own time and space as revealed in Dream Team... shouldn't it be more into tier 2? I mean, a universe has trillions of galaxies and its own space and time, but adding up all the trillions of galaxies that possess their own time and space, wouldn't that make it a Low 2-C structure if not higher?

 

[Omnificence]

I thought of some advice. If you take my advice, the results should be recorded somewhere where they can be accessed conveniently instead of letting them get drowned in this thread.

Sorry if this was already done and I hadn't seen it, but it would be a good idea to check the Japanese version Mario & Luigi: Dream Team when Dreambert said that the Zeekeeper traveled dimensions. Maybe this can give us insight on the nature of those dimensions. During Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, Professor E. Gadd used the word "dimension" to describe King Boo having the potential to destroy the universe, which is currently accepted by the VS Battles Wiki as universal environmental destruction over time by King Boo. Perhaps the Japanese version of this statement and the Japanese version of Dreambert's statement have a similarity or difference that can give us insight on what Dreambert meant by "dimension". Professor E. Gadd is a super scientist and Dreambert is very knowledgeable about dream worlds, so they are both reliable sources. Perhaps analyzing the aforementioned information will help us determine once and for all whether or not dream worlds are universes.

Yeah, and that's another thing... How come we can use that instance of "dimension" to refer to a universe but not the dimensions in the Dream World? Isn't dimension another term for universe?

 

[Omnificence]

Future Dream would no longer be a universe, instead becoming Multi-Solar System due to the moderately large amount of stars visible within its background, and scaling to the size of dreams in Dream Team.

And WHY are you proposing Multi-Solar System level for Future Dream when you specifically said:

No character ever refers to Future Dream as a universe in size. In the English translation of the game, it's pretty explicitly referred to as a galaxy, which is why the Japanese text is used.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Wait a second...

If all the dreams that enter the Dream Depot are galaxy-sized, and they have their own time and space as revealed in Dream Team... shouldn't it be more into tier 2? I mean, a universe has trillions of galaxies and its own space and time, but adding up all the trillions of galaxies that possess their own time and space, wouldn't that make it a Low 2-C structure if not higher?

Yeah, and that's another thing... How come we can use that instance of "dimension" to refer to a universe but not the dimensions in the Dream World? Isn't dimension another term for universe?

Maybe. The people on the downgrade side were arguing that the space-time in the dream worlds found in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team were only as big as the total amount of stars within the worlds, rather than all-encompassing and universal. I know that space-time is a plane that isn't necessarily universal in scope, but in most cases, I don't typically see people using this in accordance with the definition of the word "world" when it's higher than a planet or society in scope. The people on the downgrade side do raise a convincing argument though, since according to the Tiering System, the space-time continuum must be on a [provably] universal scale for it to count as tier 2. However, if someone can confirm that "dimension" means "universe" in this matter, then yes, the dream worlds would be tier 2.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And WHY are you proposing Multi-Solar System level for Future Dream when you specifically said:

Dude

Please stop spamming, like 80% of the posts in this thread are from you and it's just stating the same shit over and over again. We used that line to demonstrate that neither the English nor the Japanese versions of MP5 confirm that Future Dream is a universe, and nothing more.

Yeah, and that's another thing... How come we can use that instance of "dimension" to refer to a universe but not the dimensions in the Dream World? Isn't dimension another term for universe?

Dimensions are not inherently universe sized. The term "pocket dimension" is a term for a reason.

Wait a second...

If all the dreams that enter the Dream Depot are galaxy-sized, and they have their own time and space as revealed in Dream Team... shouldn't it be more into tier 2? I mean, a universe has trillions of galaxies and its own space and time, but adding up all the trillions of galaxies that possess their own time and space, wouldn't that make it a Low 2-C structure if not higher?

Dreams still wouldn't be tier 2, nor would the collection of all the dreams in the Dream Depot, although I'm personally fine with the Dream Depot itself being just low 2-C (or 3-A). All this would change is add one more universe onto the Void's 2-C downgrade.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

And didn't you say right here that the Future Dream is a galaxy? Speaking of which, hey DDM...

Didn't you say "And yeah, Future Dream is just one dream and all the other dreams you enter in Mario Party 5 are mirror dimensions of equal size; the ending credits clearly just shows you Future Dream multiple times and/or has multiple Future Dreams if we see it more than once; more likely the former though" in the Dream Stone Re-upgrade thread?

Doesn't that prove these dreams are galaxy-sized?

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara @Kirbonic_Pikmin

The English translation is scuffed which is why it’s not used lmao. It misses a lot of context and is different to the JPN one, hence why it’s not used.

Idk where DDM is getting mirror dimensions from, I assume it’s just because dreams in DT can replicate parts of Pill’o island, but that’s not really enough to prove they’re entire mirrors of the whole galaxy, no.

Yeah, and that's another thing... How come we can use that instance of "dimension" to refer to a universe but not the dimensions in the Dream World? Isn't dimension another term for universe?

we can refer to that instance of dimension = universe because Mario’s main universe/dimension is provably universal in size. In that same game E Gadd makes mention of the “Paranormal Dimension” which ghosts come from, but we have no reference for its size as a dimension. The same would apply for any other instances of something just being referred to as a dimension. With no other proof or reference of its size, it doesn’t really mean anything.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

we can refer to that instance of dimension = universe because Mario’s main universe/dimension is provably universal in size. In that same game E Gadd makes mention of the “Paranormal Dimension” which ghosts come from, but we have no reference for its size as a dimension. The same would apply for any other instances of something just being referred to as a dimension. With no other proof or reference of its size, it doesn’t really mean anything.

Has anyone checked if the Japanese versions of the statements about dimensions give any insight into what size they might be? I figure that if Professor E. Gadd meant "dimension" as in "universe", maybe the Japanese version used a word that more clearly meant "universe", and it can be compared to the Japanese version of Dreambert's usage of the word "dimension".

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Has anyone checked if the Japanese versions of the statements about dimensions give any insight into what size they might be? I figure that if Professor E. Gadd meant "dimension" as in "universe", maybe the Japanese version used a word that more clearly meant "universe", and it can be compared to the Japanese version of Dreambert's usage of the word "dimension".

I’ve had the Dreambert statement translated, but not the E Gadd one. It doesn’t really give anything of note.

 

[Omnificence]

Please stop spamming, like 80% of the posts in this thread are from you and it's just stating the same shit over and over again. We used that line to demonstrate that neither the English nor the Japanese versions of MP5 confirm that Future Dream is a universe, and nothing more

Nope, not at all what I was getting at. You're proposing Multi-Solar System level for the Future Dream but you have a scan that shows it being a galaxy. Not repeating anything there.

 

[Omnificence]

Dreams still wouldn't be tier 2, nor would the collection of all the dreams in the Dream Depot, although I'm personally fine with the Dream Depot itself being just low 2-C (or 3-A). All this would change is add one more universe onto the Void's 2-C downgrade.

What difference does it make? If you're making the Dream Depot High 3-A with all those starry sky like dreams when they also have their own time and space, you're adding the time and space from all of them together.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not at all what I was getting at. You're proposing Multi-Solar System level for the Future Dream but you have a scan that shows it being a galaxy. Not repeating anything there.

As Kirb explained, we're not using the English translation because of how many inaccuracies it contains (iirc the translator we asked for help was actively baffled at how bad MP5's translation was). We only brought it up so we could demonstrate that neither version corroborates Future Dream being a universe.

What difference does it make? If you're making the Dream Depot High 3-A with all those starry sky like dreams when they also have their own time and space, you're adding the time and space from all of them together.

Uh, I mean the difference it would make is that nobody in the verse would be 2-B or 2-A. Dream Team characters would cap at 3-A/High 3-A, and SPM characters would cap at 2-C. That was kind of the point.

 

[Omnificence]

Uh, I mean the difference it would make is that nobody in the verse would be 2-B or 2-A. Dream Team characters would cap at 3-A/High 3-A, and SPM characters would cap at 2-C. That was kind of the point.

So you do support a 3-A/High 3-A Dream Stone, then?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

As Kirb explained, we're not using the English translation because of how many inaccuracies it contains (iirc the translator we asked for help was actively baffled at how bad MP5's translation was). We only brought it up so we could demonstrate that neither version corroborates Future Dream being a universe.

Uh, I mean the difference it would make is that nobody in the verse would be 2-B or 2-A. Dream Team characters would cap at 3-A/High 3-A, and SPM characters would cap at 2-C. That was kind of the point.

Dream Team characters would be 3C - 3B depending on the quantity of dreams, not 3A, Dream Stone isn’t connected to the Dream Depot at all. Dream Stone would only scale to the amount of dreams absorbed in Dream Team.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dream Team characters would be 3C - 3B depending on the quantity of dreams, not 3A, Dream Stone isn’t connected to the Dream Depot at all. Dream Stone would only scale to the amount of dreams absorbed in Dream Team.

Ah, nvm then, I completely forgor I'm completely opposed to 3-A or higher, then.
this is why Kirb is Mario's #1 hater and I'm only #2

 

[Omnificence]

this is why Kirb is Mario's #1 hater and I'm only #2

A-ha! I should've known; you guys did this out of spite.

Dream Team characters would be 3C - 3B depending on the quantity of dreams, not 3A, Dream Stone isn’t connected to the Dream Depot at all. Dream Stone would only scale to the amount of dreams absorbed in Dream Team.

So, you do support a 3-B Dream Stone.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

A-ha! I should've known; you guys did this out of spite.

So, you do support a 3-B Dream Stone.

I mentioned from the beginning of OP that I thought it could possibly go higher, discussion about it would just need to be done. I’m not sure if I agree with the currently assigned 100k dreams of Pillo Island, but if it’s what’s currently accepted here and that’s the amount of dreams absorbed by the Dream Stone, then 3B would be fine for now yes.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

A-ha! I should've known; you guys did this out of spite.

You caught me, it was a conspiracy the whole time, please spare me your infinite wrath JT-sama!!

So, you do support a 3-B Dream Stone.

Yeah that's fine.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I mentioned from the beginning of OP that I thought it could possibly go higher, discussion about it would just need to be done. I’m not sure if I agree with the currently assigned 100k dreams of Pillo Island, but if it’s what’s currently accepted here and that’s the amount of dreams absorbed by the Dream Stone, then 3B would be fine for now yes.

Here's what the justification would look like as it stands: "Attack Potency: Multi-Galaxy level ([scales to the Dream Stone], with the Dream Stone containing a cosmology of 100,000 dream worlds; dream worlds are the same size as each other, and Future Dream from Mario Party 5 is a dream of a galaxy)"

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah, and that's another thing... How come we can use that instance of "dimension" to refer to a universe but not the dimensions in the Dream World? Isn't dimension another term for universe?

it varies, it can, but it isn't the default assumption for what it means, it is heavily situation context based

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Here's what the justification would look like as it stands: "Attack Potency: Multi-Galaxy level ([scales to the Dream Stone], with the Dream Stone containing a cosmology of 100,000 dream worlds; dream worlds are the same size as each other, and Future Dream from Mario Party 5 is a dream of a galaxy)"

we wouldn’t use the dream of a galaxy thing, its a mistranslation from the scuffed English localization and we’re prioritizing the JPN localization. Dream Stone wouldn’t scale to Future Dream anyways. The first part of it is fine though.

 

[Omnificence]

I mentioned from the beginning of OP that I thought it could possibly go higher, discussion about it would just need to be done. I’m not sure if I agree with the currently assigned 100k dreams of Pillo Island, but if it’s what’s currently accepted here and that’s the amount of dreams absorbed by the Dream Stone, then 3B would be fine for now yes

Okay then...

It would take 25, using the same formula used to calc destroying 2 starry skies and 3-C's 1.053e66 baseline.



Other than that, I do vote for dreams being 3-B, as some kind of actual (though small) contribution to this thread instead of waltzing in and being "ummm, ackthually" to some guesstimate.

Edit: Calc was actually more relevant than saying my opinion on the Mario thread

100 billion stars, eh? So, what you're saying is everyone's dream which is the size of the Dream World is nothing but a starry sky and all the locations in the Dream World are nothing but starry skies as well. However...

If you take the 100,000 we used for the lowest population in the re-upgrade for the Dream Stone thread, and multiplied it by 2,500 stars which is the number we use for our starry sky feats, along with the ten locations in the Dream World which contains starry skies, you'd get 2,500,000,000 stars, making it the size of 2½ galaxies, making the Dream Stone 3-B. Isn't that right, Fuji and Kirb?

Final offer... "3-B, likely far higher". Take it or leave it.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Okay then...


Final offer... "3-B, likely far higher".

Leaving it at 3B should be fine, I don’t think there’s reason for a likely far higher note

 

[Omnificence]

Leaving it at 3B should be fine, I don’t think there’s reason for a likely far higher note

3-B it is, then.

 

[SeijiSetto]

i mentioned it earlier but like
3-B's value specifically comes from destroying 2 galaxies which are, well, intergalactic distances apart. that's how inverse square law works. (the same value is used for creation, too)
if things aren't demonstrably that far apart, then... y'know, there's no reason to use that, is there?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

i mentioned it earlier but like
3-B's value specifically comes from destroying 2 galaxies which are, well, intergalactic distances apart. that's how inverse square law works. (the same value is used for creation, too)
if things aren't demonstrably that far apart, then... y'know, there's no reason to use that, is there?

We're talking about the accepted value of 100,000 dreams, which would be 100,000 galaxies. I think that's fine for 3-B.

 

[SeijiSetto]

We're talking about the accepted value of 100,000 dreams, which would be 100,000 galaxies. I think that's fine for 3-B.

oh, never mind then.
100,000 * baseline 3-C is 1.053 RonnaFOE, 3-B.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

We're talking about the accepted value of 100,000 dreams, which would be 100,000 galaxies. I think that's fine for 3-B.

Dreams are only 4A tho lol

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dreams are only 4A tho lol

Ah

In that case, the aggregate of all 100,000 dreams doesn't even make it out of 4-A

 

[SeijiSetto]

4-B and 4-A are hell tiers
2nd and 3rd biggest high-low gaps respectively

 

[Omnificence]

oh, never mind then.
100,000 * baseline 3-C is 1.053 RonnaFOE, 3-B.

Dreams are only 4A tho lol

Ah

In that case, the aggregate of all 100,000 dreams doesn't even make it out of 4-A

Just use this...

It would take 25, using the same formula used to calc destroying 2 starry skies and 3-C's 1.053e66 baseline.



Other than that, I do vote for dreams being 3-B, as some kind of actual (though small) contribution to this thread instead of waltzing in and being "ummm, ackthually" to some guesstimate.

Edit: Calc was actually more relevant than saying my opinion on the Mario thread, should've expected that

 

[Omnificence]

i mentioned it earlier but like
3-B's value specifically comes from destroying 2 galaxies which are, well, intergalactic distances apart. that's how inverse square law works. (the same value is used for creation, too)
if things aren't demonstrably that far apart, then... y'know, there's no reason to use that, is there?

Also, does the space between galaxies really matter when you take into account the amount of stars a galaxy can have? If one galaxy had 2.5 billion stars, it'd be the size of 2 galaxies, no? Don't you guys do Large Size calculations somewhere along the lines like that?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Just use this...

This formula is specifically for destroying starry skies, not just the existence of them. It doesn’t really apply here.

 

[Omnificence]

This formula is specifically for destroying starry skies, not just the existence of them. It doesn’t really apply here.

Then just call it "At least 3-C, possibly 3-B". The distance between two galaxies shouldn't make a difference if one galaxy has 2.5 billion stars which would be equal to the size of 2½ galaxies combined, right? I'm not saying there are 2½ galaxies in the Dream Stone; I'm saying there's enough energy for 2½ galaxies in the Dream Stone and/or there's a galaxy that's the size of 2½ galaxies combined in the stone.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Also, does the space between galaxies really matter when you take into account the amount of stars a galaxy can have?

scaling a pocket dimension to 3-B based off its size is a situation where the space between them matters, yes.
destroying 2 galaxies that are directly next to each other edge-to-edge takes far less energy than destroying 2 galaxies that are an intergalactic distance apart.
(the same goes for creation)

If one galaxy had 2.5 billion stars, it'd be the size of 2 galaxies, no? Don't you guys do Large Size calculations somewhere along the lines like that?

(the milky way - which i assume is the default model - has 100 billion, so i'll assume you meant 250 billion, along the lines of "more stars than our own galaxy has")
destroying a galaxy with far more stars than usual would still just be baseline 3-C, i believe. inverse square law works on how strong the explosion is at its edge, meaning that an explosion capable of destroying a star at its edge would be capable of destroying far more stars the closer you get to the epicenter.

tl;dr
the space between galaxies matters, yes, also
i think 3-C dreamworlds came from the english translation which isn't being used, making them 4-A.
galaxy level doesn't seem to be even considered anymore.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Solar System level and Multi-Solar System level are nothing to worry about in the current circumstances. Bowser considered the Dream Stone as ultimate power, so at the very least, the Dream Stone and all the characters that are comparable to it should be Galaxy level scaling to Bowser's Galaxy Reactor. The Dream Stone just wouldn't have galaxy dream worlds inside of it.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Ddm and starrsprite still got stuff to say, just need some time, i have no issue waiting for the two.


No sign of bluntclaw liking every mod post,,,

 

[Omnificence]

Ddm and starrsprite still got stuff to say, just need some time, i have no issue waiting for the two.


No sign of bluntclaw liking every mod post,,,

Alright, then. Let's wait.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Alright, then. Let's wait.

Should be less than a week considering ddm is outa work in like 5 ish hours maybe and star said theyll reply on the weekend