Dragon Slayer vs Dragon Slayer (Luffy vs Natsu)

[MountainWine]

lightning temp affecting him was pre timeskip... He can and has nullified heat when we literally see the heat not affecting the ground. You ignoring this is your fault

Yes it was pre timeskip. Now tell me how that justifies him ignoring heat 4,000+ times hotter than lightning.

A heat base attack not melting the ground isn’t justification for Luffy nullifying heat. You’re gonna have to prove the ground didn’t melt because Luffy nullified the heat.
Especially considering you’re using that as evidence for him being able to nullify 200+ million degrees. I’ve already said numerous times that if Luffy could nullify heat, he’d have engage Kaido in very different scenarios. You’re gonna have to do better than that.

Also luffy was also able to transmutate photons by bouncing them away

And whenever he ate one and felt the heat, he nullified it and was completely fine afterwards instantly

Already addressed photons earlier. Not the same as nullifying heat.

lol nothing suggest he nullified heat in that scan. I can eat a gram of burning coal, scream it burns and proceed to endure it. The fact it burns him disproves every anti heat argument so far.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes it was pre timeskip. Now tell me how that justifies him ignoring heat 4,000+ times hotter than lightning.

A heat base attack not melting the ground isn’t justification for Luffy nullifying heat. You’re gonna have to prove the ground didn’t melt because Luffy nullified the heat.
Especially considering you’re using that as evidence for him being able to nullify 200+ million degrees. I’ve already said numerous times that if Luffy could nullify heat, he’d have engage Kaido in very different scenarios. You’re gonna have to do better than that.

Too bad kaido has haki meaning luffy won't be able to always transmute everything

And luffy already has transmutation at that level and has shown it as well... At this point your just being purposefully ignorant to support your argument even tho it's accepted as such on luffy's profile and has been shown in the manga like that against heat

The heat level won't matter if the heat is transmuted

Already addressed photons earlier. Not the same as nullifying heat.

lol nothing suggest he nullified heat in that scan. I can eat a gram of burning coal, scream it burns and proceed to endure it. The fact it burns him disproves every anti heat argument so far.

No it does not... It burning him and then after the heat never being able to burn him justifies him being able to transmute and stop the heat

You do know that if the particles are turned to rubber, there's no heat that will flow through luffy or objects. That's how he can physically grab the lightning since it's not going through him, same way what happened to Boro breath

Gonna vote luffy fra since I've yet to see a way for natsu overcoming the transmutation and reality warping of luffy

 

[Excellence616]

Luffy having better LS and Speed might give be an advantage but he wouldn't be able to take hold of Natsu since Natsu will burn him to ash.

Also, Luffy wouldn't be able to transmute his Flames as his Flames can affect concepts unless someone can show me Luffy transmute some like Natsu Flames, am all ears.

Natsu (or dragon slayers) have resistance to transmutation

E.N.D wasn't restricted so he can use it.

Voting the True Dragon Slayer.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Also, Luffy wouldn't be able to transmute his Flames as his Flames can affect concepts unless someone can show me Luffy transmute some like Natsu Flames, am all ears.

Unless his flames aren't composed of atoms, they will... Otherwise Natsu's fire would have resistance to non physical interaction

Natsu (or dragon slayers) have resistance to transmutation

E.N.D wasn't restricted so he can use it.

And haki has resistance negation so it would still work

 

[MountainWine]

Too bad kaido has haki meaning luffy won't be able to always transmute everything

And luffy already has transmutation at that level and has shown it as well... At this point your just being purposefully ignorant to support your argument even tho it's accepted as such on luffy's profile and has been shown in the manga like that against heat

The heat level won't matter if the heat is transmuted

No it does not... It burning him and then after the heat never being able to burn him justifies him being able to transmute and stop the heat

You do know that if the particles are turned to rubber, there's no heat that will flow through luffy or objects. That's how he can physically grab the lightning since it's not going through him, same way what happened to Boro breath

Gonna vote luffy fra since I've yet to see a way for natsu overcoming the transmutation and reality warping of luffy

I’ve already addressed the Haki explanation. Which lead to a wide long amount of assumptions.

I’ve already addressed the profile power set listing. Many power listings literally have notes that feats are required so as to not enter NLF territory.

I’ve already addressed Luffy’s inability and lack of feats regarding nullifying heat.

So if I eat a gram of coal, it burns me and then proceeds not to do so after some time, it means I have heat nullification…OR maybe it’s because the heat was already transferred onto me and nothing burns forever unless they possess infinite energy

Already addressed the lightning. Again! heat isn’t particles but energy. You’re claiming Luffy can nullify heat (which means virtually all types of energies) without any evidence.

The same old, repetitive, assumptions, headcanons without a shred of evidence. I’m not gonna bother engaging.

Until better arguments are made, Natsu vapes Luffy the moment the battle begins.

 

[Zackra1799]

Would like to mention that Natsu does have layered (1 layer) transmutation resistance, and dragon slayer magic has innate properties that nullify attempts to transmute it into pure energy

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Many power listings literally have notes that feats are required so as to not enter NLF territory.

and I've provided the feats, you are ignoring them

I’ve already addressed Luffy’s inability and lack of feats regarding nullifying heat.

No you have not

So if I eat a gram of coal, it burns me and then proceeds not to do so after some time, it means I have heat nullification…OR maybe it’s because the heat was already transferred onto me and nothing burns forever unless they possess infinite energy

It literally showed you how luffy was able to bounce away the photons afterwards and it's heat not affecting him the second time... Has nothing to do with endurance at that point

Already addressed the lightning. Again! heat isn’t particles but energy.

Yes it is, heat is generated by particles the same way matter is able to generate force

You’re claiming Luffy can nullify heat (which means virtually all types of energies) without any evidence.

The evidence is in his profile and the showings against boro breath

The same old, repetitive, assumptions, headcanons without a shred of evidence. I’m not gonna bother engaging.

If you're simply going to ignore everything and act like luffy doesn't have transmutation, then you shouldn't

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Would like to mention that Natsu does have layered (1 layer) transmutation resistance, and dragon slayer magic has innate properties that nullify attempts to transmute it into pure energy

Luffy has around 7 layers of resistance negation... Since he's able to transmute kaido even tho not at all times

 

[MountainWine]

“Thermal energy is a type of power produced by atomic and molecular particle movement within a substance.”

Don’t know why I didn’t see this earlier but I will address it

It literally says “a type of power” aka energy. Not matter.

Search up “is heat made of matter” and it literally says otherwise.

I never denied Luffy can’t affect particles. I said he can affect certain particles he’s shown. He has yet to show he can affect pure energy and not the particles “holding the energy. Any scans provided so far are headcanons and personal interpretations.

I’m sure this won’t get anywhere though.

 

[Arkenis]

Besides this heat argument (damn guys) do these characters do anything else in a fight?

 

[Excellence616]

Unless his flames aren't composed of atoms, they will... Otherwise Natsu's fire would have resistance to non physical interaction

And haki has resistance negation so it would still work

I don't see how Haki can affect concepts

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I don't see how Haki can affect concepts

Why would it need to... Is Natsu's flame a concept...?

 

[Excellence616]

Why would it need to... Is Natsu's flame a concept...?

No but his flames effects are.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No but his flames effects are.

But they still isn't a concept, what the fire is able to do vs what the fire is composed of, is what matters

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I don't think this match really works... If luffy can't transmute, it's basically a stomp from Natsu's heat. If luffy can transmute and turn Natsu's flames into rubber then I'm assuming he has basically no ways of damaging him, turning it into basically a stomp

The only way I guess would be with Luffy using haki emission but that would mean natsu has no other ways of damaging him besides trying to survive and outlast him in stamina

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Doesn’t Gear 5th run out in like 5 minutes? Then he has to spend time in Base… He’s also currently running from Fire Manipulation from Warcury right now because it’s too hot… So like… Yeah…

 

[Kachon123]

He’s also currently running from Fire Manipulation from Warcury right now because it’s too hot… So like… Yeah…

He's running from the island because it's becoming inhabitable and their goal is to escape it with Vegapunk.

Doesn’t Gear 5th run out in like 5 minutes?

No.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He’s also currently running from Fire Manipulation from Warcury right now because it’s too hot… So like… Yeah…

This is simply not true... Only the giants were affected by the surrounding fire

Luffy was running away because he couldn't damage him with his gear 5 attack

This would also have to ignore warcury using haki as well

Doesn’t Gear 5th run out in like 5 minutes? Then he has to spend time in Base…

even if that was true he would still be able to utilize his haki

And luffy can push himself to keep on going in gear 5 if he wants to

 

[Mndks]

And luffy can push himself to keep on going in gear 5 if he wants to

Yes, but for some reason he doesn't always do it

 

[XDragnoir]

And luffy can push himself to keep on going in gear 5 if he wants to

It's good to notice tho that af far as we know he can only do that once or twice (which is the amount of times he could do it in Wano).

In Egghead, chapter 1094, Luffy says he reached his limit and after that he was incapacitated and seemingly unable to move at all until he got food to recover his energy.

 

[XDragnoir]

Doesn’t Gear 5th run out in like 5 minutes? Then he has to spend time in Base… He’s also currently running from Fire Manipulation from Warcury right now because it’s too hot… So like… Yeah…

Btw Mitch, since you brought Luffy's stamina limits up, what about Natsu? His profile isn't much clear in regards to stamina as it focuses on his endurance, do any of his feats (or someone he scales to) give an idea on how long he can keep his powers at its peak?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes, but for some reason he doesn't always do it

because he doesn't need to, it also like gear 2nd where it's dangerous to his life

 

[Mndks]

because he doesn't need to

yeah, because their rivals are not kaido

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

yeah, because their rivals are not kaido

I mean he hasn't yet even used adv con haki

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's good to notice tho that af far as we know he can only do that once or twice (which is the amount of times he could do it in Wano).

In Egghead, chapter 1094, Luffy says he reached his limit and after that he was incapacitated and seemingly unable to move at all until he got food to recover his energy.

Yee but that's him trying to rest, even here he was immobile yet still turned gear 5 on again, I think it's just he can transform until he dies or something

We don't fully understand the gear 5 time limit tho but it seems to act like his other gears

 

[Mndks]

I mean he hasn't yet even used adv con haki

kaigoat lol

 

[XDragnoir]

Yee but that's him trying to rest, even here he was immobile yet still turned gear 5 on again, I think it's just he can transform until he dies or something

I mean, sure, but in Egghead we saw that he had to be saved from attacks (as Franky did) and he didn't seem to be able to reactivate it at will given he first had to eat before using it again.

What we can conclude is that Luffy has a time limit but can reactivate it (as seen in Wano) until his energy is fully depleted for using it (what we see in Egghead).

We don't fully understand the gear 5 time limit tho but it seems to act like his other gears

Ehhh, each of the gears has a different side effect/time limit, so Idk if that helps much.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Ehhh, each of the gears has a different side effect/time limit, so Idk if that helps much.

Well it seems to be like gear 4 + gear 2nd affect kinda... This is kinda derailing at this point tho

I mean, sure, but in Egghead we saw that he had to be saved from attacks (as Franky did) and he didn't seem to be able to reactivate it at will given he first had to eat before using it again.

This is simply not true, he didn't have to eat with kaido... Which is where he faught the most serious with

We see here, he looks old and exhausted, then was fine

He didn't have to be saved, same thing that happened in Dressrosa was that he was reserving his strength and not moving on his own

If that was true, luffy wouldn't be capable of stretching or even eating by himself

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

We see here, he looks old and exhausted, then was fine

via this it took around 32 seconds for luffy to get back to normal

 

[Arkenis]

via this it took around 32 seconds for luffy to get back to normal

Could I get your summary on how you think this fight goes?

 

[XDragnoir]

Well it seems to be like gear 4 + gear 2nd affect kinda... This is kinda derailing at this point tho

We are discussing the limits of his powers, I don't see how that could be derailing.

This is simply not true, he didn't have to eat with kaido... Which is where he faught the most serious with

We see here, he looks old and exhausted, then was fine

He didn't have to be saved, same thing that happened in Dressrosa was that he was reserving his strength and not moving on his own

If that was true, luffy wouldn't be capable of stretching or even eating by himself

I mean, that's fair enough, but as I said above, we are discussing his limits regarding G5, as he clearly can't keep it up indefinitely.

So how long do you think that he can keep G5 straight and how many times can he reactivate it before being 100% exhausted?

via this it took around 32 seconds for luffy to get back to normal

Since you compared G5's side effect with G4's, do we know if Luffy can use his haki in these 32 seconds? Especially in the few seconds where his body gets wrinkled after he deactivates G5.

 

[Nierre]

Since you compared G5's side effect with G4's, do we know if Luffy can use his haki in these 32 seconds? Especially in the few seconds where his body gets wrinkled after he deactivates G5

highly doubt it

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

We are discussing the limits of his powers, I don't see how that could be derailing.

well it is derailing because we're assuming luffy would have to instantly go gear 5 and then not be able to do anything until he's out of stamina, which at that point with haki he has easily enough time to take out natsu before getting tired

So how long do you think that he can keep G5 straight and how many times can he reactivate it before being 100% exhausted?

Since you compared G5's side effect with G4's, do we know if Luffy can use his haki in these 32 seconds? Especially in the few seconds where his body gets wrinkled after he deactivates G5.

Well Gear 5 would affect only mostly his body/DF not haki since it's a devil fruit amp/awakening, same way how gear 4 is specifically a haki power up and only is unable to use haki that way

After he turns to normal from old age, he can reactive it again, but if he needs to regain it fast... He'll force it or eat food. That's how it's been shown

 

[XDragnoir]

well it is derailing because we're assuming luffy would have to instantly go gear 5 and then not be able to do anything until he's out of stamina, which at that point with haki he has easily enough time to take out natsu before getting tired

A good part of the arguments for Luffy here included his ability to transmute Natsu's flames/heat into rubber, so it's good to find these kinds of things out.

That and Luffy himself has been spamming G5 in Egghead (obviously, he doesn't exclusively use it, but it's been used pretty frequently for something that is in theory a trump card).

Well Gear 5 would affect only mostly his body/DF not haki since it's a devil fruit amp/awakening, same way how gear 4 is specifically a haki power up and only is unable to use haki that way

That makes sense, did we ever get any indication he was using buso or kenbu while suffering from the side effects tho?

After he turns to normal from old age, he can reactive it again, but if he needs to regain it fast... He'll force it or eat food. That's how it's been shown

That doesn't answer the question, yk...

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That makes sense, did we ever get any indication he was using buso or kenbu while suffering from the side effects tho?

uhh not sure, but one is where he was capable of moving while everyone else was locked in place

And saturn couldn't do anything when he was eating and saying to put him in sea stone cuffs instead

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That doesn't answer the question, yk...

I kinda did, when he turns to normal from old age he should be able to go gear 5 again

How long gear 5 is, idk... How long was he in gear 5 until he needed food with the giants?

Here's the start of full healthy gear 5

Its minimum time is 10 mins it seems, could be around 15-30 mins

 

[XDragnoir]

uhh not sure, but one is where he was capable of moving while everyone else was locked in place

I am kinda confused now, before you said he was resting but this page here implies he was in deep need of food to keep fighting.

And saturn couldn't do anything when he was eating and saying to put him in sea stone cuffs instead

Saturn was already holding 3 or 4 other characters, I am not sure the range and limit of targets were ever directly explained (in a more recent chapter for example he wasn't able to restrict the movements of a group of fodder characters who were attacking from a distance).

I kinda did, when he turns to normal from old age he should be able to go gear 5 again

The question was how many times he could reactivate it, as I said before it doesn't look like he can forcibly reactivate it more than once or twice.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I am kinda confused now, before you said he was resting but this page here implies he was in deep need of food to keep fighting.

Food to activate gear 5 quicker/instantly, otherwise if he didn't get food... He would've forced it and dangered his life for Bonney at the right moment like he did with kaido

Your acting like he can keep everyone safe in base or gear 4th...

Saturn was already holding 3 or 4 other characters, I am not sure the range and limit of targets were ever directly explained (in a more recent chapter for example he wasn't able to restrict the movements of a group of fodder characters who were attacking from a distance).

He clearly could've stopped him if he wanted to but said to the soldiers to put sea stone on him for a reason... Not sure where range or limit of targets comes from

Luffy is clearly close enough and or saturn can move close enough, and they said everyone below vice admirals aren't allowed to be around them, it's his eye that enables him to do that ability and it seems to be like con haki aura to then select who he affects

The question was how many times he could reactivate it, as I said before it doesn't look like he can forcibly reactivate it more than once or twice.

It seems like he could, you don't know how much it affects him to force it

That's like saying luffy can only go gear 2nd, once or twice when it used to be too much for his body to handle

Otherwise he can just wait out the 32 seconds and re activate similar way he did with gear 4 against katakuri but not having to wait as long

 

[speedster352]

Natsu fra

 

[XDragnoir]

Food to activate gear 5 quicker/instantly, otherwise if he didn't get food... He would've forced it and dangered his life for Bonney at the right moment like he did with kaido

That's the point? Luffy has always been the type to put his life on the line for those in need, I really doubt he would have avoided doing so and would be lying on the ground doing nothing for multiple chapters if he could reactive G5 without getting food in that instance.

Your acting like he can keep everyone safe in base or gear 4th...

Where did I ever imply that in this whole discussion?

He clearly could've stopped him if he wanted to but said to the soldiers to put sea stone on him for a reason...

I mean, any proof that he could?

Not sure where range or limit of targets comes from

Because he must have a limit? He clearly stopped using it at some point given Sanji was able to start moving again, and as I said in the previous post he couldn't hold back characters like Chopper, Nami and Brook when they were a small distance away and he was trying to capture Robin from them.

As you probably know by now, all abilities have a limit of some kind, what I am saying is that he not using it against Luffy is more than likely a limit of his own (probably a matter of range, as I explained above).

Luffy is clearly close enough and or saturn can move close enough, and they said everyone below vice admirals aren't allowed to be around them, it's his eye that enables him to do that ability and it seems to be like con haki aura to then select who he affects

And what's the farthest range we saw him pin someone down? I don't remember he doing it against anyone that wasn't pretty close to him like Sanji and the others were.

It seems like he could, you don't know how much it affects him to force it

You're saying he could reactivate it more than twice? Based on what exactly? That's what I am trying to get here and your answers on this topic aren't exactly helping.

That's like saying luffy can only go gear 2nd, once or twice when it used to be too much for his body to handle

Completely different things, G2 never left Luffy down on the ground asking for food as far as I can remember, as I said before, each gear has its own costs and side effects for being used so trying to compare them like you're doing now doesn't mean much.

Otherwise he can just wait out the 32 seconds and re activate similar way he did with gear 4 against katakuri but not having to wait as long

32 seconds restricted to base seems pretty dangerous in a fight with someone with heat on Natsu's level, but I am still waiting for an answer regarding Natsu's own stamina.