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Haki.
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Dragon Slayer vs Dragon Slayer (Luffy vs Natsu)
- Thread starter Arkenis
- Start date
- 39
- 13
useless, because the heat resistance of haki will not be able to withstand the heat of natsu's fire.
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It was already explained above how heat doesn't affect Buso Emission.
MountainWine
He/Him- 96
- 42
I don’t find the earlier explanation reasonable enough as to why Luffy would shrug off heat thousands of times higher than anything he’s dealt with. It sounds like a NLF tbh. Will it be claimed Luffy can block out trillion degree Celsius temperatures as long as the opposition’s actual AP is below Luffy’s Buso Emission durability?
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Doesn't matter since Buso emissions don't contain anything that'd be heat conductive. It's especially a barrier made by one's willpower.
MountainWine
He/Him- 96
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I get the basic logic that no heat conductivity = no transferring of heat but that easily leads to NLF. Actual feats are the best way to settle the debate of such a scenario and Luffy lacks the feats to suggest he can block out 9 digit degrees Celsius temperatures. Let’s also not forget that Natsu has repeatedly burn and bypass targets that lack heat conductive properties.
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,133
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Natsu can burn things like time, space and concepts. I don't see how something made out of willpower can block something like that
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That's at his peak, which essentially only works at that degree if he's going through the whole "don't hurt my Friend's" type emotion. That definitely wouldn't come into play unless Luffy did some villain shit.
That's not an NLF, that's just how that works. Higher temperature on a 3-D level wouldn't work properly unless it has esoteric abilities.
Read above. The feats don't matter,,what matters in a case here would be how the abilities work. It's a barrier, heat doesn't effect things that quite literally cannot conduct heat. Due to the nature of Buso Emissions the heat wouldn't be the main problem but moreso the power nullification of Natsu's flames.
MountainWine
He/Him- 96
- 42
He burned through Genesis Zero’s dimension in an earlier arc when his life was threatened.
That is most definitely a NLF. You’re claiming absurd degrees (nearly infinite degrees at that) of resistance base on a simple explanation. No evidence to back up the claim. That also sounds like game mechanics. Which is something we shouldn’t be using in these debates.
“The feats don’t matter” is wild
Heat affects everything regardless of their properties. Enough heat crumbles physics itself and ignores all properties. Doesn’t matter if something lacks heat conductive properties. They’re gonna cease to exist when all physics breaks down. Not relevant to Natsu but just wanted to bring it up.
Natsu will likely burn through Buso emission not just because of power nullification. He’ll likely be able to do so because he has burn things (shadows, dark magic, dimensions) that lack heat conductive properties .
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Which is also magic, something Natsu can burn. Buso is not comparable to Magic.
Okay let me stop you right there because this is exactly the kind of nonsense you modern-day debaters fail to comprehend. The majority of you greatly misunderstand the meaning of that word to start with, and have a high tendency to bust that argument out your arse's over the slightest interaction.
The only one here using an NLF is you. I never said it has no limits, that's something you assumed yourself. I am not responsible for you misconstruing my argument, which i made very clear by stating that due to the nature of what Emission is, heat cannot effect it. It's a barrier, they do not conduct heat, period. The same way rubber does not conduct electrical currents, due to the nature and properties of rubber.
You can increase the voltage of a electrical current but that is rendered useless due to rubber not being conductive to begin with. (Don't claim NLF on this either by saying higher dimensional shit can work. That should be common knowledge, assumptions literally make a jackass out of the all of us.)
Do you understand or are you still drawing blanks? It's a barrier, there's nothing to effect with heat. (Obviously not on a higher D level, it's silly i even need to SAY that to begin with.), Natsu can break it via higher AP, power null it, work around it via movement, etc. But for the love of god and i don't even mean you necessarily but learn how to use the term NLF properly. I made it very clear that Natsu has other ways around it, so i don't understand why you'd feel the need to ride the NLF train for no reason.
This isn't a game mechanic.
Absolutely. If it's like plank temperature, which Natsu's isn't so this argument is irrelevant. There are substances that don't conduct heat in real life.
Read above, that would be the case for plank temperature. Heat works by effecting molecules, atoms, etc. Matter. Barriers don't have matter if they're stemmed from something like willpower / the soul.
Haki has layered resistance to power null.
All of those things had magic. Something that's established he can burn, what makes his feat against zeref was that instead of burning magic he burned time itself whenever the universe, including his friends were in danger.
MountainWine
He/Him- 96
- 42
Zero’s genesis zero is magical. I don’t recall the actual dimension being stated to be magical.
You don’t have to state exactly “it has no limits” to make it a NLF. I asked a question regarding temperature extreme of trillions of degrees and you straight up said “it doesn’t matter”.
I don’t need other simple examples to understand the basic logic. I’ve already said earlier that I understand “no conductivity = no heat transfer”. I’m asking for evidence for claims of greater temperature because actual feats are what determines the limits and not your own conclusions base on simple logic.
The higher dimensional shiz is obvious. I never said anything about higher dimensional functions. I don’t see why or the point of this being brought up.
I didn’t bothering with the other wincons because I agreed with them. I’m pursuing the temperature claim because it lacks evidence to back it up.
It isn’t a game mechanic but is certainly being treated like one.
I only brought up temperature extremes to disprove your earlier claim. I did state it was irrelevant to Natsu and not an argument. Barriers not having matter doesn’t prove they can ignore the consequences of physics collapsing. It is a case by case basis.
Layered power null doesn’t automatically mean any power nullification with less layers would fail to null. Case by case basis of what the power nullification has nulled.
What created them is magical. They aren’t necessarily magical. Especially the dimension.
You don’t have to state exactly “it has no limits” to make it a NLF. I asked a question regarding temperature extreme of trillions of degrees and you straight up said “it doesn’t matter”.
I don’t need other simple examples to understand the basic logic. I’ve already said earlier that I understand “no conductivity = no heat transfer”. I’m asking for evidence for claims of greater temperature because actual feats are what determines the limits and not your own conclusions base on simple logic.
The higher dimensional shiz is obvious. I never said anything about higher dimensional functions. I don’t see why or the point of this being brought up.
I didn’t bothering with the other wincons because I agreed with them. I’m pursuing the temperature claim because it lacks evidence to back it up.
It isn’t a game mechanic but is certainly being treated like one.
I only brought up temperature extremes to disprove your earlier claim. I did state it was irrelevant to Natsu and not an argument. Barriers not having matter doesn’t prove they can ignore the consequences of physics collapsing. It is a case by case basis.
Layered power null doesn’t automatically mean any power nullification with less layers would fail to null. Case by case basis of what the power nullification has nulled.
What created them is magical. They aren’t necessarily magical. Especially the dimension.
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MountainWine
He/Him- 96
- 42
Forgot to ask, is energy equalized? Because that’s gonna make it easy for Natsu to break through Buso emission
MountainWine
He/Him- 96
- 42
Is there an actual scan stating Buso emission cannot be heated because it lacks matter? Or is this one of those “he was in space, so he obviously has radiation resistance” fill it in yourself assumption
If it’s the latter, then the heat resistance arguments hold no weight
If it’s the latter, then the heat resistance arguments hold no weight
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Luffy literally completely ignores Kaidou's heat precisely because of the emission. The Haki that flows out of the body is not a conductor of heat, so it cannot be burned, different from armament haki when it is used attached to the body (which still guarantees a high level of resistance), which can indeed be burned.
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Interesting thread.
From what I've seen here, I really doubt Natsu's heat would go through Luffy's Buso Emission, even moreso if the conditions for concept burning aren't attainable in this fight.
The problem tho is that Luffy most definitely can't keep Ryou up forever, nor does he do it even when facing someone like Kaido who isn't any less of a Fire spammer than Natsu, to the point G5 had its hand burnt by Kaido a few moments before their final clash, when he first activated the Kaen Daiko form.
Also, there's also the question of if Luffy can cover his whole body with Buso Emission, he probably can given Bajrang has more surface area than his whole body, but if Luffy spams G5 as he is doing currently in the manga and Ryou on top of that, his time limit will most likely be up before he can finish Natsu (or maybe not, I am not sure how good Natsu's stamina is, I only know his endurance is pretty good).
On the other hand, Natsu has to spam AOE fire continuously and follow Luffy's every movement if he wants this strategy to work, not forgetting that Luffy has speed amps and mind reading to know if such a strategy was in play + I have no idea if such a strategy would even be in character for Natsu.
All in all, unless Natsu has some ridiculous passive heat aura that surpasses both Akainu's aura and Kaido's Kaen Daiko in heat, this strategy won't be effective and Luffy has a pretty straight forward way to defeat Natsu with his internal destruction (unless Natsu resists, but his profile doesn't have such a thing from what I can see)
From what I've seen here, I really doubt Natsu's heat would go through Luffy's Buso Emission, even moreso if the conditions for concept burning aren't attainable in this fight.
The problem tho is that Luffy most definitely can't keep Ryou up forever, nor does he do it even when facing someone like Kaido who isn't any less of a Fire spammer than Natsu, to the point G5 had its hand burnt by Kaido a few moments before their final clash, when he first activated the Kaen Daiko form.
Also, there's also the question of if Luffy can cover his whole body with Buso Emission, he probably can given Bajrang has more surface area than his whole body, but if Luffy spams G5 as he is doing currently in the manga and Ryou on top of that, his time limit will most likely be up before he can finish Natsu (or maybe not, I am not sure how good Natsu's stamina is, I only know his endurance is pretty good).
On the other hand, Natsu has to spam AOE fire continuously and follow Luffy's every movement if he wants this strategy to work, not forgetting that Luffy has speed amps and mind reading to know if such a strategy was in play + I have no idea if such a strategy would even be in character for Natsu.
All in all, unless Natsu has some ridiculous passive heat aura that surpasses both Akainu's aura and Kaido's Kaen Daiko in heat, this strategy won't be effective and Luffy has a pretty straight forward way to defeat Natsu with his internal destruction (unless Natsu resists, but his profile doesn't have such a thing from what I can see)
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Yes he is. He fought from midnight all the way until dawn, spamming Buso Emission and Advanced Haō pretty much through that entire fight.
False.
You're removing context. The reason Luffy got burned by Kaidou's Kaen Daiko was because his hand was grabbing onto Kaidou, making sure he didn't run away. In fact, Luffy was purposefully trying to take all of Kaidou's attacks so that he can land the Bajrang Gun, which included Kaen Daiko.
Yes.
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Natsu this is obvious, Natsu burns until time, 200 million Natsu fire, Luffy would turn into molten rubber or there would be nothing left of him
Honestly, just a little bit of Natsu's fire was melting the entire stadium, I don't think Luffy can dodge a fire like that
Honestly, just a little bit of Natsu's fire was melting the entire stadium, I don't think Luffy can dodge a fire like that
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Haki Emission can't be burned or melted.
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Natsu only loses here if he has some restriction on him, otherwise Natsu burns even his haki
Natsu's flames> concept> time
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Yeah, that's not forever, that's like, 5-7 hours depending on the season and he wasn't with it up 100% of the time, that's what I meant by spam, using something when blocking is far from being spam.
What? Again, that's not spam, his Ryou wasn't activated 90% of the time, as Kaido doesn't have a heat aura when not in Kaen Daiko + when facing Kaen Daiko he still didn't cover his whole body in Ryou, which is what I was talking about.
Sure.
What's that supposed to be?
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The question wasn't whether Luffy can spam Haki or not (we know he can). It was if he can keep it up long enough to protect himself whenever its needed.
You said that Luffy doesn't use Buso Emission to block Kaidou's fire attacks. I proved otherwise. Again, the question wasn't whether Luffy can spam it or not (we know he can).
Luffy coating himself in Haki.
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I mean, sure, I forgot the exact wording I had used, the point is that you didn't prove he can keep it up forever, Luffy literally blocks the attacks and them deactivates his Ryou.
I never said he didn't use it, I said he didn't keep it forever (i.e 100% of the time), he definitely does use it.
Which I brought up because, unlike Kaido, Natsu uses fire with lots of range/aoe most of the time (from my knowledge, even some of his punch attacks release massive fire blasts, to say nothing of his attacks that are focused in having AoE)
That doesn't look like Ryou?
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Hm... maybe it's because he never fought anyone that has a heat aura? We know for a FACT that Luffy can use Buso Emission for a very extended period of time, so nothing is stopping him from coating his entire body that way.
Read above.
He coated his entire body because the heatwaves from Kaen Daiko were burning him.
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Okay, but how long are you arguing he can keep it up without deactivating it?
I mean, sure, but that looks like normal buso, not Ryou.
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Considering how he was able to fight with Katakuri for 13 hours while using Buso that entire time while being tired and injured beforehand with some poison sprinkled in, he should be able to use it for at least that long, especially since his Buso usage is far better now after training with Hyogoro.
It's both.
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So Luffy can keep Ryou up for 13 hours straight?
What about G5, from what we know so far how long can he keep it up before he gets tired and has to deactivate it?
It doesn't seem to have the Ryou aura, was it stated somewhere to be Ryou?
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Unsure. Against Kaidou he was already gassed beforehand (he literally died), but was able to sustain it before Onigashima dropped on Wano (~20 minutes). On Egghead, we have no clue on timeframes, and he used Gear 5 and other gears several times.
Regardless, Luffy doesn't need to use Gear 5 in this fight to be on par, if not outright beat Natsu due to his dura neg and speed amps with other gears and Haki.
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NLF to say he can.
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Yeah.
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Can Luffy turn Natsu Flames into rubber? He was able to do this with elements similar in composition to fire, such as lightning falling from the sky, and a heat blast itself coming from Kaidou's mouth. Anyway, if he could do that then the effect on himself from the fire would be completely nullified since Luffy is a rubber man
MountainWine
He/Him- 96
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Not evidence for what I asked for.
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Based on what?
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Dura neg isn't anything new for Natsu. His stamina and endurance have allowed him to shrug off internal explosions throughout his body from Gutman, call them annoying, and still go on to have two more fights beyond that.
how big are luffy's speed amps since Natsu has his 4x FDKM amp which is a significant increase?
Luffy's Kenbun is annoying but not something that Natsu can't handle since he can throw hands with Zeref whose own analytical prediction can at the bare minimum see a few minutes into the future
Also, about the whole emotion-restricted thing, is Luffy likely to try and kill Natsu, if so then Natsu isn't going to be holding back his emotions at all given him going by the "you don't die for your friends, you live for them" line that he's engraved into both Erza and Gray anytime they try to sacrifice themselves
There is also the whole SBA thing where "Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences." Given this, Natsu should be able to use his stronger emotion amps, like the ability to burn concepts, considering that going after friends and family is a common dire consequence. While i don't think he'd start of with these emotions on, to say he doesn't have access to them in this fight is just untrue even by SBA.
MountainWine
He/Him- 96
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Based on the fact that there isn’t a statement that Buso can ignore virtually any heat temps because it lacks conductivity. It’s a conclusion reached base on the logic that “no physical matter = absolutely no conductivity”. I understand the simple logic but I don’t find it a sufficient argument against 200+ million degrees. It isn’t sufficient because it is another “fill it in yourself” logic that grants powers to character and properties to powers that said powers have not shown or stated to possess.
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,133
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In this fight, they restricted Igneel's power, DF and Dragonization and Bajrang Gun which are 5-A and higher Low 5-B amps for Natsu and Luffy, but didn't restrict E.N.D and FDKM, with Luffy other Gears and his Strongest Attack.
We said that Natsu can't use conceptual flames since he only does when he is using his "Don't hurt my friends emotion stuffs".
E.N.D was activated when Dimaria threatened to kill Lucy iirc which he able to break her time stop.
If that's the case, Natsu should be able to burn Buso emissions since E.N.D was activated through "Don't hurt my Lucy".
We said that Natsu can't use conceptual flames since he only does when he is using his "Don't hurt my friends emotion stuffs".
E.N.D was activated when Dimaria threatened to kill Lucy iirc which he able to break her time stop.
If that's the case, Natsu should be able to burn Buso emissions since E.N.D was activated through "Don't hurt my Lucy".
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