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Dragon Slayer vs Dragon Slayer (Luffy vs Natsu)

In this fight, they restricted Igneel's power, DF and Dragonization and Bajrang Gun which are 5-A and higher Low 5-B amps for Natsu and Luffy, but didn't restrict E.N.D and FDKM, with Luffy other Gears and his Strongest Attack.

We said that Natsu can't use conceptual flames since he only does when he is using his "Don't hurt my friends emotion stuffs".

E.N.D was activated when Dimaria threatened to kill Lucy iirc which he able to break her time stop.

If that's the case, Natsu should be able to burn Buso emissions since E.N.D was activated through "Don't hurt my Lucy".
 
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Excellence616 said:
We said that Natsu can't use conceptual flames since he only does when he is using his "Don't hurt my friends emotion stuffs".

E.N.D was activated when Dimaria threatened to kill Lucy iirc which he able to break her time stop.

If that's the case, Natsu should be able to burn Buso emissions since E.N.D was activated through "Don't hurt my Lucy".
Click to expand...
Proof that every E.N.D Natsu instance is capable of doing that and not just tht one time because Lucy was involved?

Also, Gear 5 Luffy would simply turn his fire and heat into rubber.
 
Kachon123 said:
Proof that every E.N.D Natsu instance is capable of doing that and not just tht one time because Lucy was involved?

Also, Gear 5 Luffy would simply turn his fire and heat into rubber.
Click to expand...
Uhhh … so you agree END can do it every time then? Cuz that’s the only END instance in the whole series.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Uhhh … so you agree END can do it every time then? Cuz that’s the only END instance in the whole series.
Click to expand...
Okay so then there's no proof that he can do it every time. Since we already know that Natsu's burning capabilities are enhanced by the nth degree when very emotional, unless E.N.D can only be entered when he's emotional, we don't know if that was just because Lucy was endangered.
 
Kachon123 said:
Okay so then there's no proof that he can do it every time. Since we already know that Natsu's burning capabilities are enhanced by the nth degree when very emotional, unless E.N.D can only be entered when he's emotional, we don't know if that was just because Lucy was endangered.
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END Form is inherently extremely emotional… It’s basically his Rage Mode…
 
Kachon123 said:
Also, Gear 5 Luffy would simply turn his fire and heat into rubber.
Click to expand...
Did Luffy turn fire into rubber? He manage to instill rubber properties onto lightning because he’s highly resistant to lightning and can physically touch it. Fire is a different case and brings up the question why didn’t he do it to every single one of Kaido’s heat base attacks? Claiming Luffy can do so to anything with thermal energy is also a high claim.
 
MountainWine said:
Fire is a different case and brings up the question why didn’t he do it to every single one of Kaido’s heat base attacks?
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Because he only got hit with them twice, both of which he was off-guard.
MountainWine said:
Claiming Luffy can do so to anything with thermal energy is also a high claim
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How so? He can literally tun photons and lightning into rubber. Nothing is stopping him from turning Natsu's fire into rubber.
 
Kachon123 said:
Because he only got hit with them twice, both of which he was off-guard.

How so? He can literally tun photons and lightning into rubber. Nothing is stopping him from turning Natsu's fire into rubber.
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He bounced away Bolo Breath. Nothing suggests he could’ve turned it into rubber.

Again lightning is something he can grab and naturally affect. Everything he’s affected so far was something he could grab. It’s a high claim because virtually everything has a thermal system and have their own properties.

Also Luffy doesn’t really turn things into rubber. He gives them rubber properties. That doesn’t mean he nullifies the properties (heat, cold, radiation, etc) of whatever he turned into rubber.
 
MountainWine said:
Again lightning is something he can grab and naturally affect. Everything he’s affected so far was something he could grab. It’s a high claim because virtually everything has a thermal system and have their own properties.
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He literally turned a hologram into rubber and bit it apart.
 
Kachon123 said:
He literally turned a hologram into rubber and bit it apart.
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Scan? That is still something he can grab. Photon particles, water molecules, and electrons are all things he’s able to grab/affect

You’re still overlooking the fact he never transmuted fire and avoided heat base attacks he can’t physically grab.

Heat isn’t particles but a system of transferring energy.

Even if he can apply rubber property to fire, there isn’t evidence he nullifies all the properties of things he applies his rubber property to. So he burns regardless.
 
MountainWine said:
Scan?
Click to expand...
4YQD9zF.png

MountainWine said:
You’re still overlooking the fact he never transmuted fire and avoided heat base attacks he can’t physically grab.
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Luffy's transmutation is based on reality manipulation and subjective reality manipulation. You'd have to prove that his reality manipulation for some reason can't affect fire and heat.
 
Kachon123 said:
Luffy's transmutation is based on reality manipulation and subjective reality manipulation. You'd have to prove that his reality manipulation for some reason can't affect fire and heat.
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How could I forget! Luffy can reality warp! He one shots by creating a galaxy devouring black hole and imagining Natsu’s narrative out of existence!

You made the claim. Burden of proof is on you.
 
Nice strawman. Anyways, I'll just wait for more people to come and vote. Both sides' arguments and wincons have been laid out. No point in arguing with someone who clearly has no intent to have a real discussion.
 
Kachon123 said:
Nice strawman. Anyways, I'll just wait for more people to come and vote. Both sides' arguments and wincons have been laid out. No point in arguing with someone who clearly has no intent to have a real discussion.
Click to expand...
I won’t reply with stupid attempts at humor if you don’t make stupid claims. If it wasn’t obvious enough, I'm poking fun at the fact that reality warping and subjective reality does not grant all or any guaranteed abilities. It doesn’t magically solve the proof you’re lacking for your claim.

Funny thing is that I never said Luffy can’t win. He has arguably higher speed, higher LS, and better Hax. The only problem is no counter to Natsu’s heat and higher AP. I’m appalled at the arguments against the heat and all these other claims with no evidence. The only thing backing them is headcanon.
 
Arkenis said:
  • Restricting Igneel's power, DF and Dragonization and Bajrang Gun
Click to expand...
devil fruit restricted...?

Speed: Relativistic (Much faster than his X791 End of Tartaros Arc Base Form. Kept up with Jacob and Enhanced Neinhart), higher with FDKM (Far faster than before. Should be comparable to Dragon Force Wendy) or E.N.D. Form (Comparable to his Fire Dragon King Mode. Easily blitzed Base Dimaria), FTL with Igneel's Power (Kept up with Base Zeref) or DF (Comparable to his Igneel's Power Form and Base Zeref), higher with Dragonization (Much faster than his Dragon Force. Casually blitzed Animus), far higher with Igneel's Power+FDKM (Faster than before) or DF+FDKM (Faster than before), FTL+ with SDFF (Way faster than his prior forms due to his power surpassing its limits. Kept up with Fairy Heart Form Zeref), Massively FTL with SFDM (At least 4x faster than his Savage Dragon Fire Form due to merging the state with his Dragon Force and the power of six other Dragon Slayers)
Click to expand...
About this... Are those ratings speed amps or...? Because this would be a blitz if he amps to MFTL even tho luffy's gears Amp to blitz levels it won't matter

Ohh I see the DF thing 🙈... I don't understand the faster than before stuff... Is it amps or different keys 🙉
Kachon123 said:
Natsu is 20.1 Petatons and 0.1c, 80.4 Petatons and 0.4c with FDKM.

Luffy is 4.56 Petatons, 18.24 Petatons with Gear 2+3 or Snakeman, 36.48 Petatons with Boundman, 72.96 Petatons with Strongest Attacks. 10.66c in all forms, far higher reactions + precog with Kenbunshoku
Click to expand...
Think this it... mmm, I see 🤔
 
MountainWine said:
He bounced away Bolo Breath. Nothing suggests he could’ve turned it into rubber.
Click to expand...
How do you bounce off an energy wave? Luffy did this precisely because he turned it into rubber. Furthermore, the fact that the ground didn't melt when Boro Breath ricocheted proves that things turned to rubber don't affect other rubbery things. Otherwise, if you have balls you can assume that Luffy imagined the floor wouldn't disintegrate, and would have nullified the heat by RW. Btw, Luffy's body is made of rubber so he would not be affected by Natsu's fire and heat if it were transmuted into rubber.
 
Ryuga21 said:
How do you bounce off an energy wave? Luffy did this precisely because he turned it into rubber. Furthermore, the fact that the ground didn't melt when Boro Breath ricocheted proves that things turned to rubber don't affect other rubbery things. Otherwise, if you have balls you can assume that Luffy imagined the floor wouldn't disintegrate, and would have nullified the heat by RW. Btw, Luffy's body is made of rubber so he would not be affected by Natsu's fire and heat if it were transmuted into rubber.
Click to expand...
I guess you haven’t heard of light specular reflection.

Fire is still made of particles of matter. He can bounce the particles away. He isn’t bouncing the actual heat or transmuting it as far as we know. It is a system of energy transference and not actual particles. You’re claiming Luffy can nullify virtually all energy systems.

Prove Bolo Breath was turned into rubber. Luffy freaking out at Bolo Breath and not turning it into rubber says otherwise.

Assumptions! The same thing as proof. Prove he imagined the floor not disintegrating via RW. I always forget how RW can do anything the user desires, Luffy blinks Natsu out of existence via RW!

“IF”, so far no evidence has been presented to prove he can transmute fire and heat. If he could, he would’ve simply stood his ground against Bolo Breath without freaking out. Instill rubber properties into it and manipulate it. He also lacks the heat resistance feat against the temps Natsu is exerting.
 
MountainWine said:
I guess you haven’t heard of light specular reflection.

Fire is still made of particles of matter. He can bounce the particles away. He isn’t bouncing the actual heat or transmuting it as far as we know. It is a system of energy transference and not actual particles. You’re claiming Luffy can nullify virtually all energy systems.

Prove Bolo Breath was turned into rubber. Luffy freaking out at Bolo Breath and not turning it into rubber says otherwise.

Assumptions! The same thing as proof. Prove he imagined the floor not disintegrating via RW. I always forget how RW can do anything the user desires, Luffy blinks Natsu out of existence via RW!

“IF”, so far no evidence has been presented to prove he can transmute fire and heat. If he could, he would’ve simply stood his ground against Bolo Breath without freaking out. Instill rubber properties into it and manipulate it. He also lacks the heat resistance feat against the temps Natsu is exerting.
Click to expand...
Kaido can use haki as well which is how the attacks are able to effect him and why luffy won't be able to always turn kaido into rubber, same way how kaido's club doesn't turn to rubber... Otherwise the lightning he grabbed, he felt no heat from it and with the first Boro breath he negated it's heat against him
 
MonkeyOfLife said:
Kaido can use haki as well which is how the attacks are able to effect him and why luffy won't be able to always turn kaido into rubber, same way how kaido's club doesn't turn to rubber... Otherwise the lightning he grabbed, he felt no heat from it and with the first Boro breath he negated it's heat against him
Click to expand...
The Haki explanation doesn’t really prove anything or address earlier points. It actually contradicts earlier and future claims of Luffy supposedly turning BB into rubber. “If” BB was coated in Haki and Luffy never transmuted it, then obviously that isn’t a heat transmutation feat. “If” you’re claiming Luffy could’ve transmuted BB if it wasn’t coated in Haki. Then you’ll have to provide evidence proving so. These are all just “ifs”, “probably”, and assumptions. Not actual statements or feats.

Luffy can grab lightning because he’s highly resistant to it and he’s rubber. Lightning temp is also fodder next to Natsu’s heat. Already covered this earlier. Scan clearly shows Luffy reflecting BB. No heat negation whatsoever. Kaido’s heat temps are also fodder next to Natsu’s.

More on heat negation/nullifying. Do y'all not realize that claiming Luffy can negate heat means you’re claiming he can make virtually any attack (within his AP range) disappear, lose or decrease their AP, slow down or completely cease the motion of the attack.
 
MountainWine said:
The Haki explanation doesn’t really prove anything or address earlier points. It actually contradicts earlier and future claims of Luffy supposedly turning BB into rubber. “If” BB was coated in Haki and Luffy never transmuted it, then obviously that isn’t a heat transmutation feat. “If” you’re claiming Luffy could’ve transmuted BB if it wasn’t coated in Haki. Then you’ll have to provide evidence proving so. These are all just “ifs”, “probably”, and assumptions. Not actual statements or feats.

Luffy can grab lightning because he’s highly resistant to it and he’s rubber. Lightning temp is also fodder next to Natsu’s heat. Already covered this earlier. Scan clearly shows Luffy reflecting BB. No heat negation whatsoever. Kaido’s heat temps are also fodder next to Natsu’s.

More on heat negation/nullifying. Do y'all not realize that claiming Luffy can negate heat means you’re claiming he can make virtually any attack (within his AP range) disappear, lose or decrease their AP, slow down or completely cease the motion of the attack.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Luffy has transmutation accepted on a Macro-Quantum level... There is no ifs, probably or assumptions.

Luffy already has it in his profile that he can turn things to rubber at that level, luffy being resistant to lightning doesn't matter and we have seen him be affected by lightning's heat in the past

The evidence you want isn't needed

The temperature wouldn't matter if it's turned to rubber and will just bounce of luffy, not saying luffy will always do it but he can
 
MonkeyOfLife said:
Luffy has transmutation accepted on a Macro-Quantum level... There is no ifs, probably or assumptions.

Luffy already has it in his profile that he can turn things to rubber at that level, luffy being resistant to lightning doesn't matter and we have seen him be affected by lightning's heat in the past

The evidence you want isn't needed

The temperature wouldn't matter if it's turned to rubber and will just bounce of luffy, not saying luffy will always do it but he can
Click to expand...
“but an appropriate explanation regarding the scope of applications the ability has should be given.” - Matter Manipulation page with Macro Quantum manipulation in it

There were plenty of ifs, probably, and assumptions earlier.

Possessing a power set doesn’t grant access to all capabilities and possibilities of the power set. Being able to mess with certain matters on a macro quantum scale doesn’t mean he can do so to every other matter. If somebody claims Luffy can turn plutonium/uranium into rubber and nullify the radiation, they better have evidence. Also heat isn’t matter. Feats and reliable statements are the standard. Especially when you consider the fact he repeatedly didn’t and failed to do so to heat base attacks. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


Luffy being resistance to lightning does matter. We know he can interact with it because he’s rubber. If lightning temps can affect him, what makes you think something thousands of times hotter won’t. Showing resistance to lightning doesn’t justify him resisting Natsu’s temp. Again he can’t nullify heat.

How convenient….again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

I’ve already addressed the fire transmutation scenario earlier but will repeat again. Even “IF” Luffy can instill rubber properties into fire, he’d still have to deal with the heat. Thermal energy isn’t matter. Prove he can turn thermal energy (virtually all energy at that) into rubber. Also prove he completely nullifies the properties of what he converts into rubber. Everything we’ve seen so far says the exact opposite.
 
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MountainWine said:
Luffy being resistance to lightning does matter. We know he can interact with it because he’s rubber. If lightning temps can affect him, what makes you think something thousands of times hotter won’t. Showing resistance to lightning doesn’t justify him resisting Natsu’s temp. Again he can’t nullify heat.
Click to expand...
lightning temp affecting him was pre timeskip... He can and has nullified heat when we literally see the heat not affecting the ground. You ignoring this is your fault
MountainWine said:
Prove he can turn thermal energy into rubber.
Click to expand...
Thermal energy is a type of power produced by atomic and molecular particle movement within a substance.
Click to expand...
Luffy has transmuted particles like electrons into rubber...

Transmutation is the ability to alter the form of energy, beings, objects, matter, etc. to change it into something else.
Click to expand...
 
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