Dragon Ball's Hax vs AP

[DragonEmperor23]

Hax in DBZ is always negated by physical strength: Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard, ShadowWarrior1999, Goodyfresh, Paul Frank

Hax in DBZ is not always negated by physical strength: TheC2, Akreious, Kepekley23, Antoniofer, Matthew Schroeder, FateAlbane

Hakai is negated by physical strength: Everyone for always negated, Goddess of Winter, Kaltias

If there's anyone I misplaced or missed let me know and I'll update it. This is just to find out who's on each side.

 

[Dragomer]

It's not a weakness of the hax, it's a capacity of the characters, otherwise all hax that were ever resisted are just inferior than those that weren't, Avada Kadavra would be superior to Xavier's mind power.

It would be a weakness of the attack. Having your attack not work on all stronger foes is a weakness. That's a general rule of the ability.
Having your attack not work on a foe with a resistance is not a weakness because that person has said resistance. This is an exception to the ability.

No, it would be a capacity of the character, just like in an RPG where a character has a strong enough magical defense for a magical attack to do 0 damage, the thing come from the characters, not the attack and if we followed your logic, hax that were only ever used on normal humans and never resisted would be miles above hax that worked on multiversal beings but were resisted.

and here the resistance is being provided by their power source that also provide all their other stats, including durability and AP, it's just that since it's the power source everyone uses, everyone who is stronger than a certain level will resist it, that's pretty basic stuff.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Said Hakai was made by Toppo on purpose to not overwhelm Freezer's resistance, your argument is shit.

Even ******* Satan and Videl can control their attacks to that level, exemple : the only time Videl lost control and straight up snapped Spopovich's neck.

Frieza WAS overwhelmed, open your eyes, it's what was shown to us.

And explain how holding back a punch and holding back certain properties of an attack are the same thing, especially since it was stated that Toppo can't control Hakai.

That's like comparing someone holding back a punch to the ability to unleash the destructive force of a nuclear bomb without unleashing the radiation that goes along with after being stated to be impossible.

That is the false equivalency to end all false equivalencies. Those are not the same things in the slightest.

 

[Dragomer]

Said Hakai was made by Toppo on purpose to not overwhelm Freezer's resistance, your argument is shit.

Even ******* Satan and Videl can control their attacks to that level, exemple : the only time Videl lost control and straight up snapped Spopovich's neck.

Frieza WAS overwhelmed, open your eyes, it's what was shown to us.
And explain how holding back a punch and holding back certain properties of an attack are the same thing, especially since it was stated that Toppo can't control Hakai.

That's like comparing someone holding back a punch to the ability to unleash the destructive force of a nuclear bomb without unleashing the radiation that goes along with after being stated to be impossible.

That is the false equivalency to end all false equivalencies. Those are not the same things in the slightest.

He was hurt but his resistance wasn't overwhelmed, that's the different between a knock out punch and punching through your goddamn torso, that's basic logic.

They are the same thing because they are all related to martial art, just like the power systeme of DB at large and control is a very important part of it, that's like asking how do they control the AOE or the heat generated by their attacks, that's just part of how their powers works, control was always a very strong part of how power works in DB

Except that it's fiction and it was never stated to be impossible for dragon ball character to do that.

And it's the biggest desperate buzzword throwing to invalidate an argument i'v ever seen, you might as well just go 'i don't want that point to count' at this point because it will have the same results.

 

[Ryukama]

Hax in DBZ is always negated by physical strength: Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard, ShadowWarrior1999, Goodyfresh, Paul Frank

No I never once stated DB AP always negates hax. I said the opposite multiple times though.

"Now said Dragon Ball characters shouldn't be able to resist all of these types of haxes from all verses, but within their own verse they should be able to resist these particular attacks."

"Just because Mafuba can work on stronger opponents doesn't mean that all DB hax works on stronger opponents."

"Exactly. Here's the thing. I'm not claiming Broly can resist all existence erasure from any character who's weaker than him. I'm not saying that DB characters use AP to negate hax in every circumstance."

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yeah, that's what that says. Hax in DBZ.

 

[Dragomer]

I'm not saying that hax is negated by physical strenghts either BTW, i'm saying they use the same thing to get their physical strenght as they use to resist hax, just like they use the same power to defend themself that they use to attack so 'who is stronger than who' would also be a valid metrics to know 'who resist better than who'.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Ryu

Wait, so do you agree that there is some hax in DBZ that ignores strength?


@Dragomer

Ki?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@DragonEmperor23 I never said hax in DB is always negated by physical strength. Hakai though is. Case-by-case basis.

 

[Dragomer]

@Ryu
Wait, so do you agree that there is some hax in DBZ that ignores strength?


@Dragomer

Ki?

Yup, that's pretty from where EVERYTHING come from in dragon ball, the only other form of energy known are 'magic' who isn't explored at all and 'destruction energy' that isn't explored at all either.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ryu
Wait, so do you agree that there is some hax in DBZ that ignores strength?

Of course some hax works on somewhat more powerful characters. I still don't think that should be NLF'd to saying it can defeat all characters regardless of how unfathomably greater the gap might be.

 

[Wokistan]

Couldn't you get a special ending in one of the dragon Ball games by using Devilman to beat Frieda and Cell via abuse of his special ability? Iirc there was or the fighting games where Devilman sucked physically but had that one attack that did a ridiculous amount of damage on any characters the game classed as evil.

Far reaching durability negation does seem to be a thing, in certain cases.

 

[Dragomer]

Couldn't you get a special ending in one of the dragon Ball games by using Devilman to beat Frieda and Cell via abuse of his special ability? Iirc there was or the fighting games where Devilman sucked physically but had that one attack that did a ridiculous amount of damage on any characters the game classed as evil.
Far reaching durability negation does seem to be a thing, in certain cases.

It was an event attack, if you use that attack in gameplay before the game wanted to launch the pseudo cutscene, it did jackshit.

and you only did that to Freezer, it was a 1 fight 'what if' scenario but it should be noted that this Devilman had some 4th wall awareness and timeline awareness since he mention he messed up the events and shouldn't have done that before dismissing it, saying it's not that much of a probleme, Cell doesn't appear BTW, maybe there was King Cold too thought.

That game had lots of scenario like that, there was even one where you beat Radditz as Piccolo.

Also yeah, some hax can allow characters to punch way out of their weights class, like time hax apparently need God level to be resisted but it would need feat for it to be accepted like the Mafuba since they would be the exception in dragon balls.

Otherwise we'd end up with nonsense like Toppo soloing DBS.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Hax in DBZ is always negated by physical strength: Goodyfresh, Paul Frank

Hax in DBZ is not always negated by physical strength: TheC2, Akreious, Kepekley23, Antoniofer, Matthew Schroeder, FateAlbane, ShadowWarrior1999, Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard, Wokistan

Hakai is negated by physical strength: Everyone for always negated, Goddess of Winter, Kaltias, ShadowWarrior1999, Dragomer, Ryukama, The real cal howard

 

[Warren_Valion]

Couldn't you get a special ending in one of the dragon Ball games by using Devilman to beat Frieda and Cell via abuse of his special ability? Iirc there was or the fighting games where Devilman sucked physically but had that one attack that did a ridiculous amount of damage on any characters the game classed as evil.
Far reaching durability negation does seem to be a thing, in certain cases.

What game is that? That sounds hilarious.

Although Freiza would probably survive his heart exploding due to his insane durability, the guy was cut in half for Pete sake.

And Cell can just regenerate the injury.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Dragomer

Ki?

Yup, that's pretty from where EVERYTHING come from in dragon ball, the only other form of energy known are 'magic' who isn't explored at all and 'destruction energy' that isn't explored at all either.
So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer

Ki?

Yup, that's pretty from where EVERYTHING come from in dragon ball, the only other form of energy known are 'magic' who isn't explored at all and 'destruction energy' that isn't explored at all either.

So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?
Yes, Ki is what allow them to do anything and it's the only thing they ever use for defense so if someone resisted it and it's not mentionned to be like Goku resisting the devilmite beam on a technicality, then it should scale through strenght since it's also what allow to defend against the hax.

Thought we can only say for the hax we did see them resist, for all we know, an hax that was never introduced to the show would need level of strenghts only Zeno has to resist or even Pilaf could be strong enought to resist it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

The argument was not "Is all hax in Dragon Ball negated via AP?"

The argument is, "Is Hakai negated via higher AP?"

I disagreed saying it was the character's having a resistance to EE, not that Hakai has a weakness.


Did you not read all the comments between Ryu and I?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

The argument was not "Is all hax in Dragon Ball negated via AP?"
The argument is, "Is Hakai negated via higher AP?"

I disagreed saying it was the character's having a resistance to EE, not that Hakai has a weakness.


Did you not read all the comments between Ryu and I?

Well, this thread was for both. Everyone seems to agree on not all hax and now it's shifted to whether or not Hakai is. I was just asking Drago what his interpretation/opinion was.

 

[Dragomer]

So you're saying higher amounts of Ki is what lets them not get EE'd?

The argument was not "Is all hax in Dragon Ball negated via AP?"
The argument is, "Is Hakai negated via higher AP?"

I disagreed saying it was the character's having a resistance to EE, not that Hakai has a weakness.


Did you not read all the comments between Ryu and I?

Your disagreement would be fine if you weren't disagreeing because you want some nonsense magical resistance for 3 characters and that's it rather than going with what the show clearly say and understand that they are simply doing it by being strong enought and therefor the resistance should scale, like every resistance in DB.

Did we every see a single type of resistance not scaling in dragon ball ? like ever ?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Did we every see a single type of resistance not scaling in dragon ball ? like ever ?

Vegeta's mind control resistance,

Vegtio's transmutation resistance

Vegeta's AZ resistance.


No resistance has ever been scaled on the profiles actually.

 

[Dragomer]

Did we every see a single type of resistance not scaling in dragon ball ? like ever ?

Vegeta's mind control resistance,
Vegtio's transmutation resistance

Vegeta's AZ resistance.


No resistance has ever been scaled on the profiles actually.

Everyone scale it except this site

Everyone scale it except this site

everyone scale it except this site

and the show treats all of those as scaling, unless Hyssop and Babidi solo DBS too now and Buu would have one shotted Beerus if he remembered his signature move, all of which is clear nonsense that the show in no way support.

That's because the hax need feats to affect characters, characters don't need to have resistance to resist it, that's what is said on the Hax page as i'v shown multiple time.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

So everyone does it and we must follow along? A larger number of people doesn't make something right.

Or, you know, we just don't assume people that don't show something don't, by our standards, have that ability even if by all means it makes sense they have. Or quite simply, someone like Jiren stares and Toppo is dead before he transforms, someone like Babidi tries his mind magic and Beerus annihilates in a second. Someone like Buu tries to carry out candy shenanigans and Beerus one finger taps him by evading, and this is disregarding the official statement, as brought up by Kep, that pure power wasn't why Vegito could still fight. So the God tiers are still God tiers in the hypothetical scenario of "they do actually not have those resistances".

Then the page needs to be updated and changed. We've changed our concept manipulation pages and High 1-A got removed and yadda yadda. If it's wrong, we change it. Not going into NFL because an ability can't be assumed to work on people that are much stronger than what it's shown affecting is not the same, it will never be the same, as the character resisting something because they are stronger, unless directly stated in verse.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Everyone scales it except this site"

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure OBD, SA, SB, and CV also don't scale it.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Even if multiple sites did scale it, are we suddenly under obligation to do it like everyone else? It's one thing for our community to come together, discuss, debate and come to a conclusion. It's another thing for us to just go along with a particular way of thinking just because that's what others are doing.

 

[AKM sama]

It should be case by case imo. Characters from DB have shown to resist some hax just by the virtue of their power (powering up) and other hax do work on stronger opponents. Like Matt said, there isn't 100% of one thing or the other.

I also agree with Ryu. Monster Carrot can totally hax GP.

 

[Dragomer]

"Everyone scales it except this site"
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure OBD, SA, SB, and CV also don't scale it.

I don't know the official policy of those sites but i definitely participated in threads where it was scaled on all those sites and no one was bringing up how it's against the site's rule.

This site is the only site i'v seen where Toppo is considered able to solo DBS.

 

[Dragomer]

Even if multiple sites did scale it, are we suddenly under obligation to do it like everyone else? It's one thing for our community to come together, discuss, debate and come to a conclusion. It's another thing for us to just go along with a particular way of thinking just because that's what others are doing.

If your conclusion is a conclusion no one else has reached and it also has the consequence of leading you to believe Toppo solo DBS except for 3 characters who have inherant unexplained resistance, meaning they could have no sold Hakai as new born, it has more problems than 'we don't want to just follow what other say' and no, it's not an argument by ridicule, that's litteraly an argument on the Toppo vs DBS Broly thread.

Also this very site has the hax page saying it's the HAX who need feats to affect beings of a certain strenghts.

 

[AKM sama]

"Everyone scales it except this site"
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure OBD, SA, SB, and CV also don't scale it.

OBD does scale the hakai resistance, just saying. What the OBD does is besides the point and doesn't relate to my previous comment so please don't @ me ovo

 

[Dragomer]

So everyone does it and we must follow along? A larger number of people doesn't make something right.
Or, you know, we just don't assume people that don't show something don't, by our standards, have that ability even if by all means it makes sense they have. Or quite simply, someone like Jiren stares and Toppo is dead before he transforms, someone like Babidi tries his mind magic and Beerus annihilates in a second. Someone like Buu tries to carry out candy shenanigans and Beerus one finger taps him by evading, and this is disregarding the official statement, as brought up by Kep, that pure power wasn't why Vegito could still fight. So the God tiers are still God tiers in the hypothetical scenario of "they do actually not have those resistances".

Then the page needs to be updated and changed. We've changed our concept manipulation pages and High 1-A got removed and yadda yadda. If it's wrong, we change it. Not going into NFL because an ability can't be assumed to work on people that are much stronger than what it's shown affecting is not the same, it will never be the same, as the character resisting something because they are stronger, unless directly stated in verse.

That's like being a flat earther and trying to justify not believing in the round earth because 'we ain't sheeps !'

No they don't, Beerus evaded jackshit in characters against any of the Z fighter, your headcanon is going against what the show clearly portrayed as the Z fighter having NO chance against Beerus, including anything Buu can do.

So no one is making a big deal about Toppo having an attack that can kill the whole DB multiverse including Zeno but Jiren just having raw power above a GoD is constantly freaked on about ? and if Toppo started in his GOD form, he does solo the whole DB multiverse then ? why would no one bring up no one could stop Toppo except Vegeta, Freezer and Goku once he actualy transformed ? maybe because it doesn't make sense ?

Then change it and then comeback, in the meantime it's still what the site has officialy to say about hax.

Yeah because we don't already know how DB characters resist hax, it's not as if we had multiple instance and even Freezer talking about his power while resisting EE....oh wait.

what you are saying is both a NFL and nonsense that isn't supported in anyway by the show, insinuating that Toppo could one hit kill Zeno and no one gives a **** is just nonsense to the hightest degree.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

At this point, I'd rather just scale resistances. I know that it's case-by-case of course. But it's better than needlessly complicating another franchise to fit our, a fansite's, narrative.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yes, because Buu is the most tactical of fighters. How many times, do remind me, Fat Buu makes candy out of people to beat them? Like honestly, how much is it a precedent of his when he was still evil and not even more mellow like now? And what way does Beerus not resisting that stop him from being so far above Buu he could casually slap him aside before he even tried? Headcanon, the best word to disprove opposition.

Nobody said there can't be other people with resistance, as that would make sense, but you would still be assuming out of jack nothing and giving abilities off like free candy because of an issue the writers could have easily not thought about, as easy as they didn't think about Toppo falling down the floor from Hakai energy.

Oh yes indeed, its absolute nonsense to think Toppo has an answer to whatever other odd techniques the angels have up their sleeve or Zeno's "get haxed" Ray of annihilation, or that he could never get tired enough to drop his GoD power. Meaning every other option besides "they resist it or GG" which is pretty sensible ovo.

 

[Dragomer]

Yes, because Buu is the most tactical of fighters. How many times, do remind me, Fat Buu makes candy out of people to beat them? Like honestly, how much is it a precedent of his when he was still evil and not even more mellow like now? And what way does Beerus not resisting that stop him from being so far above Buu he could casually slap him aside before he even tried? Headcanon, the best word to disprove opposition.
Nobody said there can't be other people with resistance, as that would make sense, but you would still be assuming out of jack nothing and giving abilities off like free candy because of an issue the writers could have easily not thought about, as easy as they didn't think about Toppo falling down the floor from Hakai energy.

Oh yes indeed, its absolute nonsense to think Toppo has an answer to whatever other odd techniques the angels have up their sleeve or Zeno's "get haxed" Ray of annihilation, or that he could never get tired enough to drop his GoD power. Meaning every other option besides "they resist it or GG" which is pretty sensible ovo.

You're talking about the guy who managed to outsmart and asborb Gohan and basicaly always spam his candy beam at every opportunity, that was even one of his opening moves against Evil Buu.

If he can't resist it, he can't slap it away cause if it touches him, he get turned into candy and what they wanted to portray is that it would work but Beerus can counter it, they would have done like with Evil Buu but it's clearly not what they wanted to show, what they wanted to show is that NOTHING they can do would do anything to Beerus, no matter what.

Yeah, cause magical unmentionned and inherent resistance that allow Baby Vegeta to resist EE and absolute 0 is so canon, so canon in fact that it's never even implied at any point in the franchise.

No, we would be assuming jackshit, we'd simply be abserving the show and using our brains, your magical baby Vegeta no selling EE and absolute 0 is the assumption here and contradict the show.

except they did think about that because Toppo obviously can control what he erase and what he doesn't, you're just saying 'my headcanon is true but the writers are too dumb to know !', which is nonsense.

He doesn't need an answer to jackshit, they can't touch him since everything they have doesn't resist EE and he can one shot them since they can't resist EE, simple as that, that's the nonsense you're going for, without forgetting once again how no one cares at any point about his EE, you know ? the EE that would one shot Jiren, who has no such 'odd powers' and only has raw strenght ?

Yeah, every nonsensical option beyond 'what the show is clearly portraying and showing' is sensible, that's not a bulshit thing to say, especialy when it's an ability absolutly no one gave a **** about while everyone was freaking out about Ultra Instinct, a technique that is litteraly nothing compared to a one hit kill attack against everything except 3 random characters for no reason at all.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

Energy of destruction could likely be resisted via AP if the character who would be hakai'd can use that AP in the form of energy similar enough in nature to ki in DB. Otherwise, the stronger character would need an established EE resistance.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Hakai and Energy of Destruction are the same exact thing.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

I'm well aware of that, ShadowWarrior.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I honestly don't care about this much at all, but with the obvious proof Kep has given... honestly, either get a CRT made or drop the issue, because things are getting confused. Saying an ability can't be assumed to work beyond what's been shown to do is not and will never be, the same as assuming anyone that is stronger than the character has a way to counter the ability. If they do, that's a weakness of the ability and not an universal thing unless it's actually established as one. There's a longer list, a bigger precedent, for hax to work on people stronger.

The structure of the story does not excuse this. It's not our problem if the writers lost the ability to have insight and didn't think of explaining why anyone with Hakai isn't ruling the world, or if it's because they have all resistance that has never been ever mentioned, it's not implied or shown so no, everyone and their mother above Toppo isn't getting EE resistance or any equivalent out of nothing. Because what you are proposing means just that, and its as unfounded as it is just odd.

 

[Dragomer]

I honestly don't care about this much at all, but with the obvious proof Kep has given... honestly, either get a CRT made or drop the issue, because things are getting confused. Saying an ability can't be assumed to work beyond what's been shown to do is not and will never be, the same as assuming anyone that is stronger than the character has a way to counter the ability. If they do, that's a weakness of the ability and not an universal thing unless it's actually established as one. There's a longer list, a bigger precedent, for hax to work on people stronger.
The structure of the story does not excuse this. It's not our problem if the writers lost the ability to have insight and didn't think of explaining why anyone with Hakai isn't ruling the world, or if it's because they have all resistance that has never been ever mentioned, it's not implied or shown so no, everyone and their mother above Toppo isn't getting EE resistance or any equivalent out of nothing. Because what you are proposing means just that, and its as unfounded as it is just odd.

'I don't care much but i 100% side with that side and i'll whine at the opposite side' then you do care and you should stop feigning neutrality and indifference, that's just a dumb argumentative ploy.

'muh CRT !!! Muh CRT !!!' go read the hax page, realise it go against your 'Toppo solo DBS nonsense' and make your own CRT if you really think you are right, screaming 'muh CRT' when what is written on the hax page tell you that your argument is nonsensical is just sad

Also if the ability need to be proven to work against a certain level, why wouldn't it need to be proven to work against an even stronger level ?

Except that we do know all those stronger characters have a way to counter the ability, it's called ki and it's the same power that was used by the weaker character to resist the ability in the first place and they litteraly just have more of it.

No, it's an ability of the characters, not a weakness of the hax, that's like a RPG with magic defense, the hight magic defense come from the characters, nothing else.

And declaring that any Hax that get resisted is because a weakness of the hax itself is just an open door to NFL nonsense; it would make hax that are only ever used against humans but never resisted better than hax used to kill multiversal beings but was resisted once.

No, there is super small list you can count on a single hand with fingers to spare and half of them aren't valid, try again.

The structure of the story is telling you your head canon is wrong, deal with it, the writers didn't lose any insight, they just didn't spoonfeed you the obvious, you can't impose your headcanon in the story and say the author is in the wrong for debunking it.

Also they did give an explaination : Power, that's litteraly what the characters screamed about everything single time they no sold an ability and EE is the same.

except they do, you just don't want to realise it and will just go the dumbest lenghts to keep your headcanon, Toppo isn't soloing DBS and nothing he can do can scratch anyone stronger than Vegeta SSBE, everyone stronger than Base TOP Goku has EE resistance, that's just the obvious conclusion the show want you to make

The resistance was litteraly shown on screen, you dum-dum and the scailing is just basic logic, cause what did they use to resist ? ki, what does everyone stronger than them has over them ? a stronger ki so the resistance ******* scale.

Yeah, cause magical, unmentioned and inherent resistance isn't the odd thing here, saying that Toppo solo DBS isn't the odd thing here, Baby Vegeta no selling EE and absolute 0 isn't the odd unfounded argument here, god, how can you be so delusional ?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Vegito doesn't count due to the Daizenshuu saying that's a special ability only he has, which we accept.

Wait, when was this?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Vegito doesn't count due to the Daizenshuu saying that's a special ability only he has, which we accept.

Wait, when was this?

• "He has certain special characteristics, including that his strength doesn't change even if his shape does." (Daizenshuu 2)