Dragon Ball's Hax vs AP

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren Valion That's GoD Toppo, a Low 2-C vs a Ki blast from a 3-A. Of course that's getting erased.
Toppo was also holding back.

Toppo was holding back the entire time so he didn't kill Frieza.

But if a causally suppressed Toppo can erase energy, why couldn't he erasure Frieza when he grabbed him?

Maybe, it is because he has a resistance to EE as shown multiple times with Super.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

He was holding back from crushing Frieza's head physically, Toppo's fist was still covered in the same hakai energy that dusted everything else that touched him.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Toppo was holding back the entire time so he didn't kill Frieza.

But if a causally suppressed Toppo can erase energy, why couldn't he erasure Frieza when he grabbed him?

Maybe, it is because he has a resistance to EE as shown multiple times with Super.

You just answered your own question.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

And that's that. I gave a very important second example in case anyone needed it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

There are multiple things to consider on why I never wanted to mention Frieza. One killing equals disqualification. There is no reason to assume he is 100% trying to kill. He could be weakening the attack just enough to heavily hurt his body.
Another thing to consider, a character in dragon ball > the attacks they throw out. Jiren did his ultimate attack but goku caught it casually, and dispersed it no problem. However he had issues actually putting Jiren himself out of the fight. There are infinite examples of a fighter getting his attacks fodderize but take a massive beating, hit by a powerful blast and Be fine. Android 17 barriers can get one shot. But he himself has never been one shot. See why I don't like bringing up Frieza now?

God Toppo was holding back untill he fought SSJBE Vegeta. That's why Frieza wasn't destroyed instantly by a causal punch, but he can't "hold back" the EE effect of his aura when he is covered in it.

That makes no sense and wasn't shown or stated anywhere.


Dragon Ball characters are weaker than the Ki blast that they throw, what are you talking about? Remember Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz?

Goku himself was at a power level of 416, but when he charged up a Kamehameha, Goku's power level skyrocketed to 924.


Android 17's barriers are explicitly shown to be far more durable than he is numerous times in the series, they are unique in that aspect.


Bring up Frieza debunks your argument, is that why you don't like bringing it up?

 

[Warren_Valion]

You just answered your own question.

Toppo was holding back his physical strength, so when he was squishing Frieza's head, he didn't pop it like a balloon.

He can't "hold back" the EE effect of the Hakai armor.

1. That's completely nonsensical

2. It was never shown, implied, or stated to be the case.

3. Toppo just became a G.o.D. and IIRC, he was stated to not have full control over his Hakai yet, so to say he can do what you are insinuating is preposterous.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

his aura Also didn't erase the floor he was standing on. Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn.

2. Not always the case. But numerous times in dbs where an opponent gets his attacked easily destroyed but takes much worse punishment.

The part about 17 is a damn lie. How often does his Barrie crack and get one shot but he tanks everything far better than his actual barrier?

4. Frieza is irrelevant to my point. Toppo is holding back. And add that on top of, it's not uncommon for chars to be far more impressive than the abilities they'd dish out. Frieza can take a big ball. His attack can't tank a small pebble hakai.


Why am I here again?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

" But if then opponent is stronge enough then you would need to weaken and kill. Yes it's gunna erase weaker things on the spot, is his hakai not superior to rocks? So they get erased instantly"

But there are multiple points during this stomp of a fight where Toppo touches Frieza with the hands that are covered in Hakai energy and Frieza doesn't get erased. Yes, I know that Toppo was holding back but that's referring to killing him normally as Toppo is vastly physically surperior to Frieza. It's not like Toppo can make it so that his Hakai can erase only erase certain things, by your logic a weaker being like Frieza should have been EE'd.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I was going to mention just that.

The fact that Toppo doesn't passively erase the floor he's standing on shows that he can hold back the EE effect of his aura.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

Please don't mention that aura ever again. The ground he is standing on isn't erased either. I wonder why. I bet whatevs the reason can Be applied to the reason Frieza ain't erased rn. Lool

But yea don't mention that selective aura.

Gtg gl shadow

 

[DragonEmperor23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIibVu0Lm3E

Okay, then back to this. Sidra is Low 2-C and Golden Frieza is 3-A. Sidra's Hakai does not Erase Frieza from existence. Sure, Frieza struggles with it and powers up, but the point is that Sidra was stronger than Frieza yet his Hakai didn't instantly kill Frieza even when he caught him off guard.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Heck, it didn't kill Goku when Frieza hit him with.

 

[Warren_Valion]

his aura Also didn't erase the floor he was standing on. Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn.
2. Not always the case. But numerous times in dbs where an opponent gets his attacked easily destroyed but takes much worse punishment.

The part about 17 is a damn lie. How often does his Barrie crack and get one shot but he tanks everything far better than his actual barrier?

4. Frieza is irrelevant to my point. Toppo is holding back. And add that on top of, it's not uncommon for chars to be far more impressive than the abilities they'd dish out. Frieza can take a big ball. His attack can't tank a small pebble hakai.


Why am I here again?

You know in fiction when most people become intangible they are still able to walk on solid ground even though logically they should just fall through? Yeah, this is clearly one of those occasions.

It's called a plot hole. Even objects that touch his aura when he was unaware were passively erased.

I would say Frieza surviving being squished was a plothole too if it wasn't consistent with his feat earlier in the series of resisting Hakai.


Yes, this is always the case. The character's ki blasts are always stronger than there punches unless they are holding back significantly. Frieza obviously wasn't in this case.


>Saying 17's barrier isn't special and abnormally durable when compared to his own physical strength.

Are you serious? Did you even watch the Tournament Arc?

Android 17, who's 3-A, was able to take multiple hits from a Low 2-C consistently.

Multiple combined ki blasts from the Z-Fighters, including 17, did nothing to Anilaza's attack, but Android 17's shield is capable of pushing it back.

The examples go on and on.


Toppo is physically holding back his strength, he can't "hold back" the effect of Hakai, especially since he was stated that as a brand new God of Destruction that he can't control his Hakai very well.


Everything you have said has been completely wrong, isn't corroborated by the series, and in fact, is actually contradicted within the series.

 

[Kaltias]

Don't think that a scene where Toppo outright says "I'm trying to spare you" is a good example for Frieza resisting EE.

It is possible that he is holding it back, given that people holding back all the time in DB is a thing (I mean just look at Jiren).

Maybe he can hold back the Energy of Destruction, maybe he can't, but in the latter case, the question is why he'd even touch Frieza with Hakai Aura on.

Doesn't exactly sound like "I don't want to kill you" to me

 

[Kaltias]

It would also be weird if base Frieza's resistance was >>> Golden Frieza's, given that he obviously struggled far more to resist against Sidra than against Toppo's armor

 

[Paul_Frank]

Anyone who has actually watched dragonball can see that most hax don't work on stronger characters

I.e vegito and buu

sidra and frieza

Sidra and Goku

Toppo and vegeta and frieza

Cell and the kienzan

It's shown to work in such a way that if you are stronger than your opponent you can resist hax this makes more sense than giving 3 random people inexplicable resistance to existence erasure but not giving it to anyone else along with giving vegito and no one else resistance to transmutation or giving cell some resistance to durability negation. It's more baseless to attribute these cases to some random resistance that just popped up out of no where than to their actual strength

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Frieza isn't stronger than Sidra. Sidra is Low 2-C. Frieza is 3-A.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It would also be weird if base Frieza's resistance was >>> Golden Frieza's, given that he obviously struggled far more to resist against Sidra than against Toppo's armor

Frieza didn't have any trouble resisting the effects of Hakai though.

He acted like he was being hurt, laughed in the face of the fodder character who was given some of Sidra's energy when he stops his act, said, "Behold my power" and proceded to shrink the Energy of Destruction to a ball the size of his fist, and then he threw it at Goku.

He showed damage or even mark in the slightest at any point in the scene. The only time we see him put forth effort was to increase his power and shrink the Hakai energy.


As I said, there is nothing in the scene that proves that Frieza was powering up to "improve his resistance", it just doesn't happen. He uses his Ki to manipulate Sidra's Ki by shrinking it and then flaunts about how strong he was.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Don't think that a scene where Toppo outright says "I'm trying to spare you" is a good example for Frieza resisting EE.
It is possible that he is holding it back, given that people holding back all the time in DB is a thing (I mean just look at Jiren).

Maybe he can hold back the Energy of Destruction, maybe he can't, but in the latter case, the question is why he'd even touch Frieza with Hakai Aura on.

Doesn't exactly sound like "I don't want to kill you" to me

Well, it is undeniable that Toppo was holding back his physical strength, per tournament rules. No one would or should ever deny that Toppo was doing that.

But to say that he can hold back the EE properties of his Hakai armor, when IIRC, it was explicitly stated that because he was a brand new God of Destruction that he couldn't control his Hakai perfectly yet, seems a little ridiculous.

As for why he'd grab Frieza, why not? Frieza flaunted that he can't be affected by Hakai, and he physically just proved it by not being erased when he took a giant Hakai blast to the face. If he can survive all that, why would he die to his head being grabbed?

A feat which Frieza's energy blasts couldn't replicate, I might add.

Not to mention that G.o.D. Toppo was kind of brutal. I mean he almost popped Frieza's skull like a balloon for Pete's sake. I wouldn't doubt it if he really didn't care about being disqualified when he so readily believes in Jiren's strength to succeed.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

Sooooo 17 can get one shot by ribrianne without his barrier? GOD Toppo can crack his barrier with some beams but 17 himself is just fine when being hit by his attacks? Look at it as extra protection. His barrier are NOT more durable than his actual body. No. They get shattered all the time.

What on earthland is making anyone think 17's barriers are more durable then him when he doesn't get one shot, at all, and you see his barrier crack from basic attacks? THEY ARE NOTTT more durable than he himself. Unless you think anyone including ribri can one shot 17 without his barrier. Jiren punches through his barriers easily. Why did you mention punches? I clearly mean durability.


Not sure why you brought up the intangible example. The point is, he is covered in hakai aura. Frieza wasn't erased, vegeta wasn't erased, the ground wasn't erased.

Again, don't bring up that aura. Itself literally a non factor. I have never used that aura in any of my arguments, for good reasons. It's dogshit, not gunna use it.

His hakai aura is selective or very limited, plus plot. Again please stop mentioning this nonsense cause I am not going to talk about that terrible aura again.

There are plenty of times in dragon ball, where at attack is easily stopped, yet the person that fired it, can take far more punishment and force than the actual attack. Literally everyone is an example in the tournament. 17's barriers offer extra protection. That doesn't mean the barriers themselves are more durable than him NOOOOO. NOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOO. It's like me putting on a coat. Is the coat More durable than me? No... but it offers extra protection...... easy right?

Frieza uses his ultimate attack. It gets destroyed by a pebble hakai, yet he himself can take a bigger one. So yea I'm pretty sure I'm right here. Anywhk you made me dive in all weird directions just to keep going.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIibVu0Lm3E
Okay, then back to this. Sidra is Low 2-C and Golden Frieza is 3-A. Sidra's Hakai does not Erase Frieza from existence. Sure, Frieza struggles with it and powers up, but the point is that Sidra was stronger than Frieza yet his Hakai didn't instantly kill Frieza even when he caught him off guard.

^

 

[Paul_Frank]

That hakai was fired by someone far weaker than sidra and was a tiny amount of the energy

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What does who fired it have to do with anything? It was made by Sidra and given to the merc.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

let me also explain why I mentioned character durability> attacks they throw out. You talked about Toppo erasing his attacks but not Frieza. I'm not saying this is the reason why but it's worth noting

An attack a character can throw out in dragon ball< their actual durability. I can probably find 200 examples. So me mentioning that is a worth note. That just because his attack was erased meant nothing.

A worth note.

2nd, intention. Toppo only wants to beat Frieza... he's not trying to erase him. He's clearly holding back. So no Frieza resisting anything. And I don't want to here "he's a noob god", idc, he can clearly alter how much power he wants to use.

3rd, that aura is a non factor

4th, yea. That's it. Frieza ain't a good example. Use vegeta.

This dragged on way longer than it should. You mentioning Toppo can't hold back bc he is a noob is a no. Stop. Hakai has limits. Hopefully I ended this, this time

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

That hakai was fired by someone far weaker than sidra and was a tiny amount of the energy

Plus we know the 3-A and low 2-C gap in dB ain't Infinite. So I have no idea why anyone mentioned this. Otherwise i'm Calling for low 2-C android 17, and hit

 

[Paul_Frank]

What does who fired it have to do with anything? It was made by Sidra and given to the merc.

Yes it was made by sidra with a small amount of hakai energy and given to the merc as in

It was a weaker hakai than if the actual sidra hakai'd someone

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

"I'll give you some energy of destruction."

Is that how it went down? Toppo was weaker than sidra but he fired it directly. lol......

I'm unfollowing. Take whatever information I sent and do whatever

 

[Warren_Valion]

God Toppo is Low 2-C, Android 17 is 3-A.

His barrier being able to take attacks from God Toppo is one of the reasons why it is considered stronger than his normal durability. How can you misconstrue this?

Another example is the Analiza situation that I mentioned in my previous comment, that you never debunked by the way.

And seriously? Jiren's barrier's easily punching through Andriod 17's barriers proves that they don't have greater durability? You do know Jiren is a beyond G.o.D. level characters and is Low 2-C, right?

And what does Android 17 without his barrier have to with anything? Or Ribrianne for that matter? I also never said that he would lose to Ribrianne, so don't strawman me.

We are talking about the strength of 17's barriers and why they are superior to his normal durability. Which is shown through numerous examples throughout the series. Barley being able to survive higher tiered character's attacks just proves this.


How could you not understand my analogy? It was crystal clear.

Frieza and Vegeta weren't erased because they have resistance, the floor wasn't erased because it was a plot hole.

As I said, you know how in fiction people can become intangible, and despite that, they can walk on top of the ground even though they should fall right through? Toppo should be erasing the ground that his feet are standing on, but he doesn't, because the writers didn't think about that or didn't care. That does not mean that Toppo can control his aura's erasure properties when it was stated that Toppo can't control Hakai very well since he's a new G.o.D., IIRC.


Your arguments are irrelevant to mine, and no, it isn't "dogshit", it proves my point.


You do know that just because an attack is bigger than another attack, doesn't mean it's stronger, right? God Goku's Kamehameha is smaller than the Large Spirit Bomb on Namek, but that doesn't mean it's weaker. It's called density, dude.

And Frieza's physically body surviving Hakai, when it was shown that his energy was erased multiple times just proves my point that his resistance isn't based on Ki.

 

[Warren_Valion]

let me also explain why I mentioned character durability> attacks they throw out. You talked about Toppo erasing his attacks but not Frieza. I'm not saying this is the reason why but it's worth noting
An attack a character can throw out in dragon ball< their actual durability. I can probably find 200 examples. So me mentioning that is a worth note. That just because his attack was erased meant nothing.

A worth note.

2nd, intention. Toppo only wants to beat Frieza... he's not trying to erase him. He's clearly holding back. So no Frieza resisting anything. And I don't want to here "he's a noob god", idc, he can clearly alter how much power he wants to use.

3rd, that aura is a non factor

4th, yea. That's it. Frieza ain't a good example. Use vegeta.

This dragged on way longer than it should. You mentioning Toppo can't hold back bc he is a noob is a no. Stop. Hakai has limits. Hopefully I ended this, this time

Why don't you list examples that prove your point and actually enter in a debate?

Holding back physical strength is something every character in Dragon Ball can do.

Holding back erasure properties of an attack that has erasure properties when the character is stated to not be able to do anything on that level at this time is completely different, and comparing them is a complete false equivalently.


Hakai's limits are resistances to EE, which I have proven again and again. Everything you have said you have never backed up with proof and never debunked the proof of the opposite. You just said, "No." or, "That's wrong".

You need reasoning with evidence.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yes it was made by sidra with a small amount of hakai energy and given to the merc as in

It was a weaker hakai than if the actual sidra hakai'd someone

Yes, he gave him the attack. Where does it being weaker come from?

 

[Paul_Frank]

The fact that the hakai fired by the merc could only be as powerful as the limited amount of hakai energy he was given

In other words say sidra gave him like 1% of his hakai energy that means said hakai that was fired could only be that strong as opposed to if used by sidra who can actually use all his power in the attack

And as for the resistance to EE thing can someone who supports this frankly baseless line of thinking explain how 3 random characters just gained that resistance because last I checked none of them trained with hakai energy to learn to resist it or anything along those lines so that would mean either they just gained a resistance that no other character has or they have had it all along in which case namek saga frieza would also resist hakai and beerus would have to use something else to kill him

So since Zeno and the grand priest have never shown resistance to EE I guess beerus and the other gods are just pretending to be scared cause they can hakai Zeno the grand priest and his guards

 

[Warren_Valion]

And as for the resistance to EE thing can someone who supports this frankly baseless line of thinking explain how 3 random characters just gained that resistance because last I checked none of them trained with hakai energy to learn to resist it or anything along those lines so that would mean either they just gained a resistance that no other character has or they have had it all along in which case name saga frieza would also resist hakai and beerus would have to use something else to kill him

So since Zeno and the grand priest have never shown resistance to EE I guess beerus and the other gods are just pretending to be scared cause they can hakai Zeno the grand priest and his guards

Characters gain resistances to different abilities all the time in fiction. Vegito against Super Buu's Candy Beam anyone? They are given the resistance just because they are shown to resist them.

There doesn't need to be an explicit training montage where they show them learning to resist an attack. Especially considering that this resistance has nothing to do with their energy and everything to do with their nature.

If we went by such standards, then 3/4ths of resistances on the wiki would need to be removed via lack of training montage. It's a ridiculous notion.


That's Backwards Scaling, we don't do that. They have shown the resistance in a certain form, at a certain time. You don't apply it to previous forms.


Zeno, the Angels, and the Grand Priest haven't SHOWN a resistance, this doesn't mean they don't possibly have one, but we need feats proving as such. We can't just give away resistances, "because it doesn't make sense otherwise". This is an argument from incredulity.

As of right now, they haven't shown resistance to EE, and they will stay without said resistance unless they do in the future.

This is what is presented to us, and this is how we must extrapolate the information.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Vegito doesn't resist buuhans beam he just stays able to move because he is too strong for the technique to work fully

I never said a training montage it's more that they actually were all but confirmed to not have trained with hakai energy due to not even knowing that's how you trained to be a g.o.d

Ok they resist it in a certain form so base Goku and base frieza gained a resistance that their base form didn't have before because they got stronger

I mean you can call it an argument from incredulity if you want but do tell if they don't resist EE and you can't resist hakai if you are stronger, why are the gods scared of Zeno, why not just have all of them jump and erase him

What is presented to us in many more instances is that more ki and better ki control in db can negate hax at the very least to a certain extent

I.e vegito being able to move as candy

Cell tanking a kienzan and not being beheaded even though the kienzan is stated and shown to negate durability

 

[Warren_Valion]

Vegito doesn't resist buuhans beam he just stays able to move because he is too strong for the technique to work fully
I never said a training montage it's more that they actually were all but confirmed to not have trained with hakai energy due to not even knowing that's how you trained to be a g.o.d

Ok they resist it in a certain form so base Goku and base frieza gained a resistance that their base form didn't have before because they got stronger

I mean you can call it an argument from incredulity if you want but do tell if they don't resist EE and you can't resist hakai if you are stronger, why are the gods scared of Zeno, why not just have all of them jump and erase him

What is presented to us in many more instances is that more ki and better ki control in db can negate hax at the very least to a certain extent

I.e vegito being able to move as candy

Cell tanking a kienzan and not being beheaded even though the kienzan is stated and shown to negate durability

Vegito has a small resistance to transmutation. Not an immunity or anything, but the ability for his strength to not change no matter what shape he is in is still a resistance. The profiles show as much.

As I said, most examples in fiction don't have characters train to learn their resistance, they are just seen with it.


There can be numerous possible reasons:

Zeno is likely to just erase them first. He is very mercurial and even the smallest of things can tick him off to erase something or someone.

And it is clearly obvious that Zeno's erasure is also >>> than any G.o.D.'s.

Or as I said, it is a strong possibility that Zeno DOES have a resistance. However, it is never shown and we can't just give out abilities or resistances without proof.

Or maybe it's just shitty writing, this is Super after all.


That is never presented to us at all what are you talking about. More Ki =/= Hax negated.

As for your examples, no you are wrong on both accounts.

Vegito was stated in the Daizenshuu that he has special characteristics that allows him his resistance. Nothing about more Ki is ever implied.

• "He has certain special characteristics, including that his strength doesn't change even if his shape does." (Daizenshuu 2)

As for the Kienzan, do tell but where was it ever stated to negate durability? I don't remember that anywhere.

And just because it was shown to effect stronger opponents doesn't mean it is durability negating hax or anything. Tien's Tri-Beam worked on Semi-Perfect Cell, and you wouldn't call that "durability negating hax", now would you? No, it's an ability that works on stronger opponents. That's all.

And besides, Cell tanking a Kienzan was anime filler.

 

[Dragomer]

You all realise that this thread would mean that Toppo solo DBS, including Zeno if you follow the 'magic unmentionned, unexplained, and inherent resistance for 3 random character' way of thinking ? does anyone realise how dumb that conclusion is ?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Something along the lines of "Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents" under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.

Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

 

[Dragomer]

Something along the lines of "Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents" under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.
Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

It's not a weakness of the hax, it's a capacity of the characters, otherwise all hax that were ever resisted are just inferior than those that weren't, Avada Kadavra would be superior to Xavier's mind power.

unless we start following the hax page and consider hax like any stats, AKA, it need feats to actualy work on a highter level, if you want to argue that the hax work on a multiversal characters, then the hax would need to have multiversal level feats.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Something along the lines of "Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents" under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.
Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

We actually saw Frieza being overwhelmed and consumed into an Hakai by a stronger opponent, and survive.

In said clip, we see multiple times that Frieza's energy is erased when touching Toppo's Hakai Armor, while his body is not when being hit with both Toppo's physical attacks being coated in Hakai armor and his Hakai blasts that are proven to be stronger than him.

 

[Dragomer]

Something along the lines of "Hakai/existence erasure can be overpowered by stronger opponents" under the weaknesses for Beerus, Toppo, and Sidra can do.
Funny to mention 3-A Frieza resisting Hakai from Low 2-C Sidra but still no evidence of it working on a stronger opponent.

We actually saw Frieza being overwhelmed and consumed into an Hakai by a stronger opponent, and survive.
In said clip, we see multiple times that Frieza's energy is erased when touching Toppo's Hakai Armor, while his body is not when being hit with both Toppo's physical attacks being coated in Hakai armor and his Hakai blasts that are proven to be stronger than him.

Said Hakai was made by Toppo on purpose to not overwhelm Freezer's resistance, your argument is shit.

Even ******* Satan and Videl can control their attacks to that level, exemple : the only time Videl lost control and straight up snapped Spopovich's neck.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It's not a weakness of the hax, it's a capacity of the characters, otherwise all hax that were ever resisted are just inferior than those that weren't, Avada Kadavra would be superior to Xavier's mind power.

It would be a weakness of the attack. Having your attack not work on all stronger foes is a weakness. That's a general rule of the ability.

Having your attack not work on a foe with a resistance is not a weakness because that person has said resistance. This is an exception to the ability.