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Dragon Ball's Hax vs AP

< It's explained multiple times that it's Jiren's power and strength that makes the Time Skip unable to work on him. And as you said he was struggling to overpower it. He was using his power to resist it.

Two statements which are just describing what they actually see instead of anything concrete in that regard. Jiren possesses a power that transcends time. Nothing says he does this via raw strength alone.

> Frieza was jokingly pretending to have had the Hakai blast hurt him.

Freeza was caught off guard by the attack at first, and when it clashes with his hands it doesn't do shit to him despite him being both suppressed and off-guard at that time. And despite the fact that the attack itself doesn't do any damage to him nor does he feel it, he still needs to do a big, fancy power-up sequence to his full power and visibly sttrugle in order to compress the raw energy of the attack itself.

So you're saying that Freeza while suppressed can effortlessly tank an attack that he needs his full-power as well as visible effort to actually negate via raw energy.

No, no. This is literally proof that Freeza's tanking feat has absolutely nothing to do with the raw power of the attack.

> Not "Allow me to show you the magical innate resistance to Hakai blasts unrelated to my power than only I and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have as part of our being".

This is personal disbelief and completely irrelevant to the actual feats shown on-screen.

> And even the ones that can work on higher powers shouldn't be baselessly assumed to work on guys like Zeno and Grand Priest and shit, which is what one of my issues with the previous thread was since people were saying it should.

Anyone who isn't higher dimensional or doesn't have resistance feats should be affected. Saying otherwise requires proof.

> Also I'm not even saying Broly resists all existence erasue from weaker opponents

Broly doesn't have EE resistance feats to begin with.
 
TheC2 said:
The hole thing with Frieza stopping the EoD via sheer power is a little farfetched
Click to expand...
More farfetched than Golden Frieza, Base Goku and SSBE Vegeta randomly being the only beings in the multiverse to inexplicably have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power even though Frieza only attributes what he's doing to his power and that Jiren was for some reason seen as by far the most impressive warrior in U11 even though Toppo had an ability that if he wanted to he could've slaughtered Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, the Zenos and everyone in the entire multiverse except 3 random guys with?
 
I know that the origin of this thread was within the Broly vs Toppo thread; That thread highlights the extreme folly of using this forum's usual hax-resistance rules to assess intra-Dragon Ball-verse matches. The argument that Toppo could beat Broly, a VASTLY more powerful and faster character in the same verse, simply by virtue of "ha ha existence erase, gg mate" is absolutely preposterous. I even consulted with my various friends who are fellow Dragon Ball fanatics, and all six of them agree unanimously that the idea that Broly couldn't resist Toppo's hakai is absurd. If freaking ToP saga Golden Frieza could survive it without being erased, then Super Saiyan Broly could dang sure tank it without even a scratch. The rules of Dragon Ball are clear; if one opponent is literally several times stronger and faster than the other (and Broly >> GoD Toppo, from what we've seen) then they will win the fight handily.
 
> In almost all cases of hax (besides notably Guldo's back in the Namek Saga), and in all cases in DB Super, we have seen that an opponent can resist them when they obtain power on-par with or surpassing the person with Hax.

There is literally not ONE instance in the entire original series where this is ever the case (even Nappa vs. Chiaotzu is questionable to use due to the reasons outlined by Wokistan), there are nine instanes where it is not the case.

This is and always will be false.
 
Ryukama said:
More farfetched than Golden Frieza, Base Goku and SSBE Vegeta randomly being the only beings in the multiverse to inexplicably have some unmentioned magical innate resistance unrelated to their power even though Frieza only attributes what he's doing to his power and that Jiren was for some reason seen as by far the most impressive warrior in U11 even though Toppo had an ability that if he wanted to he could've slaughtered Jiren, all the GoDs, all the angels, the Zenos and everyone in the entire multiverse except 3 random guys with?
Click to expand...
Golden Frieza, Base Goku, and SSBE Vegeta are the only ones that have shown said resistance.

It is very possible that other beings in the verse, the Angels for example, are also resistant to EE.

But since they haven't shown it, we can't just assume that it is and give them the resistance without proof.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Two statements which are just describing what they actually see instead of anything concrete in that regard. Jiren possesses a power that transcends time. Nothing says he does this via raw strength alone.

> Frieza was jokingly pretending to have had the Hakai blast hurt him.

Freeza was caught off guard by the attack at first, and when it clashes with his hands it doesn't do shit to him despite him being both suppressed and off-guard at that time. And despite the fact that the attack itself doesn't do any damage to him nor does he feel it, he still needs to do a big, fancy power-up sequence to his full power and visibly sttrugle in order to compress the raw energy of the attack itself.

So you're saying that Freeza while suppressed can effortlessly tank an attack that he needs his full-power as well as visible effort to actually negate via raw energy.

No, no. This is literally proof that Freeza's tanking feat has absolutely nothing to do with the raw power of the attack.

> Not "Allow me to show you the magical innate resistance to Hakai blasts unrelated to my power than only I and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have as part of our being".

This is personal disbelief and completely irrelevant to the actual feats shown on-screen.

> And even the ones that can work on higher powers shouldn't be baselessly assumed to work on guys like Zeno and Grand Priest and shit, which is what one of my issues with the previous thread was since people were saying it should.

Anyone who isn't higher dimensional or doesn't have resistance feats should be affected. Saying otherwise requires proof.

> Also I'm not even saying Broly resists all existence erasue from weaker opponents

Broly doesn't have EE resistance feats to begin with.
Click to expand...
It's said in both of these statements that Jiren's power and strength "transcend time". It's far more concrete than any explanation you're coming up with vs what we've been told twice now. Jiren is too strong for Hit's ability to work on. That's everything we've been told. Where in any of these two statements where it's mentioned that Jiren uses anything besides his strength and power to resist it?

Find anywhere on screen that Frieza's magical innate resistance that only he, Goku and Vegeta randomly inexplicably have is ever shown or stated. Frieza only attributes everything he's doing to his power. Therefore that's the only explanation we're given. Frieza's too powerful for the Hakai to work on him, then when he further powers up he can cancel out the attack entirely.

Powerscaling. Vegeta and Frieza have feats of overpowering Hakai blasts, and Broly is literally more powerful than those two put together. So he could've also overpowered the blasts.
 
I'm still siding with Ryu on this, as it's preposterous for example that Toppo's second fiddle to Jiren when he can lolhakai, and with the other stuff Ryu's pointing out, it's a noticeable problem. The main things against this are other incidents, which Ryu isn't even saying that are problematic, and they can keep their NLFs, as that's not what he's arguing for.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I am 100% on Kepekley23's side. This isn't a real thing.
Click to expand...
How about previously when you mentioned we shouldn't be NLFing hax to work on anyone no matter the gap and that it's ridiculous to claim things like Monster Carrot's touch or Hyssop's ice attack would work on Grand Priest and Zeno?
 
He can change his mind
 
Personally, I'm not saying that Broly could resist EE hax of characters from OTHER VERSES, by the way. In fact, I suspect that the durability-negating EE hax of other verses would totally trash him, because they are true durability-negating; but the thing is, such hax in Dragon Ball have not actually been shown to be durability-negating; they have ONLY ever been shown to work that way against opponents a good deal weaker than the Hakai user. I don't know why our DB Super cahracter profiles even list Hakai as being "durability negating." It may be existence-erasure, but Hakai is NOT durability-negating against people with Ki-based durability.

Keep in mind that existence-erasure in and of itself is not necessarily durability-negating, at all. All it means is erasing the enemy from existence (in this case, completely erasing their physical body along with their soul), not that one can do it regardless of durability; in fact, what basis would we POSSIBLY have for thinking that Hakai in DB is durability-negating when it is CLEARLY shown to be a POWER-based technique and thus limited in the power of the beings it can effect? It is a technique which somehow uses godly levels of sheer power to create an existence-erasing effect; but, that effect doesn't work on opponents surpassing the power used to create the energy of destruction.

That explanation is FAR more consistent with everything regarding Hakai (as well as time-stop feats, but yeah) shown in the series, than the explanation "Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza somehow magically have special super magical hax resistance powers that no one else has exhibited" which seems to be what people want to go with here.

Edit: Perhaps not other hax in the series have been shown to work this way. Certainly not Buu's or Carrot's transmutation hax. But Time Stop hax, with the exception of Guldo's, have been shown to work the way I've described in the DB Verse, and all instances of EE hax aside from Zeno's (and that's more just because we don't know what exactly his powers are, at this point) have been shown to work in a "power-based" way rather than a "durability-negating" way. In fact, it really seems the only difference between Hakai and other God-Tier Ki attacks is that it erases the soul along with the body; otherwise it seems pretty much the same.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's not a 100% one or one thing on either level, that much is obvious.
Click to expand...
That's what Ryu is saying. He is saying that the specific powers he is talking about can be overpowered with sheer power because that's what is stated.

He isn't making any general rule
 
Kaltias said:
That's what Ryu is saying. He is saying that the specific powers he is talking about can be overpowered with sheer power because that's what is stated.

He isn't making any general rule
Click to expand...
Exactly. Here's the thing. I'm not claiming Broly can resist all existence erasure from any character who's weaker than him. I'm not saying that DB characters use AP to negate hax in every circumstance.

I am merely saying that Toppo's technique in particular got overpowered by someone vastly weaker than Broly, so Broly could also overpower Toppo's technique in particular.

Oh and also that Tier 10s with transmutation shouldn't be NLF'd into beating multiverse busters. But if you don't agree with that fine. I still stand by Broly resisting Toppo in particular's technique.
 
Kaltias said:
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's not a 100% one or one thing on either level, that much is obvious.
Click to expand...
That's what Ryu is saying. He is saying that the specific powers he is talking about can be overpowered with sheer power because that's what is stated.
He isn't making any general rule
Click to expand...
Yes exactly, see my post right above yours too. Summary of my main point: The PARTICULAR hax in DB-verse in question, Existence Erasure, has only ever been shown to work in a "power-based" fashion; really, the only difference between Hakai and other GoD-tier Ki Blasts is that it erases the soul along with the body; it has never been shown to be durability-negating in any way, so I have no idea why characters with Hakai are listed as having durability-negation.

Gods of Destruction and Toppo are not durability-negating and their profiles should not say so.

Not sure how this isn't obvious, really. Where people are getting the durability-negation idea from is beyond me.

I mean sure, the series has had non-power-based hax that are durabillity negating, like Monster Carrot's transmutation abilities; but Hakai is certainly not one of those, it has clearly been shown to have limits based on the power put into it.

I mean, as a hax power, existence-erasure isn't necessarily always durabiltity-negating, and yet everyone has seemed to assume that GoD's can negate durability despite there never being a single shred of evidence in the series to support that.
 
Don't think this thread is very useful. Certain hax in dB clearly already show this limitation to power. Saying all is pushing it. Which I don't agree with. But for the ones that was proven aka hakai, already a given
 
Regarding Hakai, my thoughts align with Goodyfresh.

The fact that it can be overcome by raw power, plus Sidra was even holding back his Hakai against Frieza means that it doesn't negate durability. It simply acts like any other Ki blast and erases the opponent if they're weaker.

Plus, that would imply that Beerus could just poof Zeno out of existence when he's clearly portrayed to be vastly inferior, hence his fear of him.
 
Ryukama said:
Find anywhere on screen that Frieza's magical innate resistance that only he, Goku and Vegeta randomly inexplicably have is ever shown or stated. Frieza only attributes everything he's doing to his power. Therefore that's the only explanation we're given. Frieza's too powerful for the Hakai to work on him, then when he further powers up he can cancel out the attack entirely.

Powerscaling. Vegeta and Frieza have feats of overpowering Hakai blasts, and Broly is literally more powerful than those two put together. So he could've also overpowered the blasts.
Click to expand...
Frieza never even mentions resistance in the scene.

He says, "I'll show you my power", and then he SHRINKS the ki blast into a ball the size of his palm.

That has nothing to do with resistance, that has to do with manipulating Sidra's ki blast.


Energy of Destruction are physically ki blasts with EE properties, if you resist the EE, then there is no difference between that attack and any other ki blast. That's why we saw Vegeta overpower it, and that's why we saw Frieza manipulate it.

They aren't resisting EE because of they're ki level. They have a resistance to EE, and because of that are able to touch the blast and either smack them away like Vegeta or manipulate their form like Frieza.

Hell, we even see Frieza get viciously overpowered by G.o.D. Toppo, and Frieza shows to not be affected by the EE properties of Hakai, despite the difference in their strength even when Toppo was holding back.
 
Alright this how hakai works.

It erases. But not anything and everything. The limitation is the power of Who it is used on or who is using it. It's basically an attack. A giant energy ball would be the same as hakai. But there is one major difference. If I kill you with a giant ki blast you die. If I kill you with hakai you vanish from existence. The EE properties are there, however it's more of the enemy has to be weak enough. If Beerus threw a hakai at a 2-C, it would bounce off of him. Why? It's the same as a any other ki blast. It doesn't erase whatever it touches, it erases whatever is weak enough.

You should look at it like this. The result of what happens when you kill someone with hakai vs when you kill someone with a ki attack. One makes you disappear. Possibly countering any regen or resurrection. A ki blast would probably just kill you, maybe vaporize you, etc. but not erase.

So there is no "you need hakai resistance." No, you just don't need to be weak enough for you to be erased by the attack. If you are too weak to handle hakai, you get erased on the spot. If you are strong it does nothing. If you are strong but a battles draws out and you are weakened extremely then it could erase when the opponent is theoretically weak enough. It just doesn't erase anything it touches and is clearly limited to power.
 
GoddessOfWinterr- said:
Alright this how hakai works.
It erases. But not anything and everything. The limitation is the power of Who it is used on or who is using it. It's basically an attack. A giant energy ball would be the same as hakai. But there is one major difference. If I kill you with a giant ki blast you die. If I kill you with hakai you vanish from existence. The EE properties are there, however it's more of the enemy has to be weak enough. If Beerus threw a hakai at a 2-C, it would bounce off of him. Why? It's the same as a any other ki blast. It doesn't erase whatever it touches, it erases whatever is weak enough.

You should look at it like this. The result of what happens when you kill someone with hakai vs when you kill someone with a ki attack. One makes you disappear. Possibly countering any regen or resurrection. A ki blast would probably just kill you, maybe vaporize you, etc. but not erase.
Click to expand...
No.

Hakai doesn't work like this for the reasons that I have stated.

It doesn't just erase things that have been killed. Toppo's shield showed us that any object that touched his aura or the objects that his blasts touched was erased. They didn't kill stuff and then erased them from existence after already vaporizing them.

Not to mention, the Hakai that Beerus used against Zamasu isn't a Ki blast, and can't be dodged.
 
That's a bad example because those were just rocks my guy. If his hakai can't erase rubble then he gunna be in trouble. I didn't say they needed to be killed. I said if it's weak enough. Then it gets erased right then right there. But if then opponent is stronge enough then you would need to weaken and kill. Yes it's gunna erase weaker things on the spot, is his hakai not superior to rocks? So they get erased instantly.

In order to instant erase you need to be a lot superior. How much is unknown, but we know Beerus is far above zamasu. However if something is strong enough say vegeta, then all your hakai is, is another ki blast. But if you weaken vegeta, and then use hakai, he goes bye bye.

And I know the Beerus one ain't a blast. But it's still hakai. It changes nothing. Do you think Beerus can hakai broly the same way? I'm gunna disagree. Broly gunna look at him like "dude wtf?" As he grabs his face and smashes him into the ground
 
I hope I understood one side of this thread horribly wrong.

If I didn't, it means the verse barely has any hax to begin with and now we're going this close to saying anyone who has enough AP resists the EE and other such hax from DB regardless of having displayed a resistance to any equivalent in their home verse because there's the possibility that in-verse for DB, people with enough ki overcome it.

...At least as far as I see, that should be a property and resistance to the ki users from DB. They have enough power/ki control, they can resist or otherwise nope these specific skills/hax to the same level displayed in their verse.

It doesn't mean we should suddenly say that anyone who can "punch harder" in other verses should suddenly resist their hax if they have 0 feats of resisting any equivalent to go along with it.
 
Zamasu was 3-A and Beerus is Low 2-C.

Of course Hakai would insta-erase Zamasu. The prospect of Beerus being able to Hakai Zeno though is laughable.
 
Wokistan said:
It's a thing that makes sense for him to resist within the context of the story, but he hasn't demonstrated.
Basically its the whole "narrative/author intent vs shown feats" argument central to vs debating.
Click to expand...
I heavily agree with this. Based on what has been shown on screen, Hakai could potentially erase Zeno. However, in the actual story if someone tried it, it would probably turns out that Zeno resists.
 
GoddessOfWinterr- said:
That's a bad example because those were just rocks my guy. If his hakai can't erase rubble then he gunna be in trouble. I didn't say they needed to be killed. I said if it's weak enough. Then it gets erased right then right there. But if then opponent is stronge enough then you would need to weaken and kill. Yes it's gunna erase weaker things on the spot, is his hakai not superior to rocks? So they get erased instantly
Click to expand...
What you said isn't stated or implied anywhere in the series at all, it is baseless.

"If it's weaker than it works like this, but if it is stronger than it works like this" is you applying headcanon.


I am going to debunk the whole "Ki Energy level = Hakai resistance" right now.

There are multiple times in the fight with Frieza where we see Energy blasts being erased by Toppo's Hakai.

Here's an example.

But in the same exact fight, we see Frieza being physically touched both by Toppo and by his energy and is not erased at all.

Proving that Frieza's resistance to EE comes from an innate resistance, not from his Ki.
 
It still erases people. If someone is simply too strong to be erased on the spot, there is always the option of weakening to a certain point and then erase with hakai. Remember, hakai would counter reassurection or regen. So it's not entirely useless. Could work on ghosts too. The properties of destruction are there, they take effect when someone is weak enough. Whether that be at the start, or weakening someone to a certain point and then finishing them up.
 
GoddessOfWinterr- said:
It still erases people. If someone is simply too strong to be erased on the spot, there is always the option of weakening to a certain point and then erase with hakai. Remember, hakai would counter reassurection or regen. So it's not entirely useless. Could work on ghosts too. The properties of destruction are there, they take effect when someone is weak enough. Whether that be at the start, or weakening someone to a certain point and then finishing them up.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? Why are you bringing up benefits of the Hakai?

Toppo negated Frieza's energy casually, but he couldn't erase Frieza in the same manner.
 
FateAlbane said:
I'm neutral on how we're going to apply this in-verse btw, but I 100% disagree with the thought of Hax being resisted by characters outside the verse "via AP" if they have 0 resistance feats in their verse to a corresponding type of hax.
Click to expand...
We are not talking about hax being resisted outside of the verse though.

We are talking about the validity of Hakai, and whether or not it is AP based.
 
There are multiple things to consider on why I never wanted to mention Frieza. One killing equals disqualification. There is no reason to assume he is 100% trying to kill. He could be weakening the attack just enough to heavily hurt his body.

Another thing to consider, a character in dragon ball > the attacks they throw out. Jiren did his ultimate attack but goku caught it casually, and dispersed it no problem. However he had issues actually putting Jiren himself out of the fight. There are infinite examples of a fighter getting his attacks fodderize but take a massive beating, hit by a powerful blast and Be fine. Android 17 barriers can get one shot. But he himself has never been one shot. See why I don't like bringing up Frieza now?

Too much to consider.
 
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