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Dragon ball Z speed revision

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Kepekley23 said:
> in either 5 minutes, 15 minutes or 30 minutes neither Cell nor Freeza would have much time to cause much destruction considering they were just toying around.1. Neither Goku or Grand Kai knew this. Goku was clearly very worried, even offering to have Pikkon avoid fighting Cell.
2. Cell tried to kill one of the workers right off the bat. He was saved just in time by Goku.
Click to expand...
1. And? Goku had no way to reach Pikkon to teleport him.

2. You think he hadn't killed other random people before? It's just him wrecking minor havock. The argument that they didn't do much damage doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

At most go by a 5 min - 10 min - 15 min calc for high-end, mid-end and low-end respectively.
 
if it was 1hour of travel goku would teleport instead of flying, and the phrase "follow pikkon" doesnt has sense because he can teleport pikkon too... it's a rumor but it is voluntarily said by the author of the movie... so you can lowball it at 90-80% not 50%. if was 50% she would have said literally half universe...
 
Spaceless, Heaven isn't half the universe either lol. The calc is for the distant between Heaven and Hell. It's not about heaven's supposed size when it's just a normal planet.
 
> 1. And? Goku had no way to reach Pikkon to teleport him.

You used Cell and Freeza toying around as a reason for why Goku wouldn't rush. Goku wouldn't know this and neither would Grand Kai.

> 2. You think he hadn't killed other random people before? It's just him wrecking minor havock. The argument that they didn't do much damage doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

That goes against Cell and Freeza toying around; they obviously weren't since they were trying to escape the afterlife and gather information. They only toyed after they got caught by Goku.
 
She states that she is told it. But the guides 100% state it as fact not rumor, like how snake way is stated a rumor in manga but fact in guide so it is accepted as fact.

Anime > Guide > your opinion Guide backs up anime. Your arguing the source material in favor of your opinion which is horribly against any good debate standards. Prove it is inconsistent. You say its smaller prove it.

From far enough it could be any size, not to mention artistic license, so again actualy prove without a shadow of a doubt that the guide and videl are wrong or you are jsut giving an opinion.

Its perfectly fine for it to be universe size since afterlife as a whole is never stated to only be universe size, that is heaven that is stated that size.

30 mins is a long time, again Goku was flyign in base despite it being urgent,a dn he coudl just IT with Pikkon if he felt the need, in fact he wanted them to himself to protect Pikon, so 30 sec is perfectly reasonable and 5 min even is low ball. 30 min is ridiculous, he wouldn;t casually fly for a half hour in that situation when he could be there in an instant.
 
1. That's not my main point. Goku wanted to warn Pikkon because he didn't know if Pikkon could handle the threat. So he followed him and tried to talk to him mid-flight.

2. Not really? They were trying to escape but they werent like blowing up planets or anything. And they're naturally sadistic assholes. It's totally in their personalities to stop to step on the bugs, as it were.
 
Again all you're doing is a fallacy of authority, Ryu. I'll have to ask you to stop this repeating argument and actually reply with something new.

It doesn't matter that the guidebook says it's true when it's demonstrably not true. Heaven can't be universal in size and be easily contained inside something that is itself the size of a universe. That is a literal fact which anyone with a basic understanding of geometry and space can grasp at.

>artistic license

You say this but you want to do calcs? Calcs which base themselves off visuals? That is dishonesty at its peak. If the planet is consistently depicted as a certain size in the anime, then that is it's size, and an illogical statement framed as a rumor in the anime should be disregarded.

5 min - 10 min and 15 min are reasonable timeframes.
 
...Naruto guidebooks are treated in a case by case basis here, so you just said they're canon until they are not.
 
Show actual proof that the guide and Videl are wrong. Thats all im asking. If you can't show legit contradictions to the statements then they should obviously be accepted.

1. You have no calc to prove that Heaven planet is smaller than stated. It could be any distance so not good enough. Also things are not always to scale in drawings, hence why we use directly stated numbers or values.

2. It is never stated the entire other world is Unvierse size, it is only stated heaven is, so that argument is moot.

They show a very clear picture of them side by side, no guess work and nothing to contradict it. Unlike you guesing the planet is smaller just becouse, no real specific reason given. The only time it is depicted as a measurable size comparison is this point.

5 maybe, any higher is silly since Goku was in a rush and would just use IT if it was any longer.
 
I have shown actual proof. The planet has earth-like conditions, gravity, atmosphere and temperature. It orbits a yellow su, for God's sake. It is contained in the other world which is equal to the mortal universe in size. It cannot be the size of a universe in any way, shape or frame.
 
> 1. That's not my main point. Goku wanted to warn Pikkon because he didn't know if Pikkon could handle the threat. So he followed him and tried to talk to him mid-flight.

That same Pikkon was also told by an alarmed Grand Kai to hurry, and he did so. Goku tried to talk to him in mid flight for a bit, yeah. Piccolo did the same to Krillin while they were flying away at full speed to escape the radius of Vegeta's sacrifice blast, and that lasted a few seconds in real time.

> 2. Not really? They were trying to escape but they werent like blowing up planets or anything. And they're naturally sadistic assholes. It's totally in their personalities to stop to step on the bugs, as it were.

...What does them not blowing up planets have to do with anything at all? Why would you even mention this? There are no planets to blow. Their entire escapade and questionage of the Hell Guards was because hell couldn't be escaped without the usage of secret passageways or orders from Yemma himself, so they were interrogating guards all around in roder to try and make a escape. They were serious. Being sadistic is natural to them, yes, which is why Cell threw that guard in the needle mountain after being done with him.
 
My main point is that arguing it was super quick because Freeza and Cell were trying to break out of hell is a non-argument. It's well within their personality to **** around, murder random people, and blow up stuff for ***** and giggles. They were still serious and trying to escape, but they don't do it with military precision and discipline. It's not their style.
 
Your using real world physics ona universe size planet. Same as tryign to jsutify how ftl is ifnnte energy, or a planet can;t be above a certain size. Show actual proof of size beign something else or its not sufficient. Atmospheric conditions is a weak argument at best agaisnt a direct fact from the guide and impication from the show.

Also still houses entire universes history of living beings, so cant be planet size.

Sun size could be anything,a dnwe dont know it orbits it, the sun could orbit the planet.

OTHER WORLD IS NEVER SAID TO BE UNIVERSE SIZE, ONLY HEAVEN IS. THAT POINT IS MOOT DUE TO FALSE INFO.

ANyway im done witht eh round about. I ahvent seen any reason not to put the calc through and most agree. If you must stick the 5 min instead of 30 sec on and use Kep's suggetion, but I think mine is perfectly reasonable tbh. Other than that hopefully some staff with a bit more of a voice will pass it.
 
Why are you screaming, Ryu? There's no reason to do that

The Afterlife World = The Mortal World, which is the universe. So Heaven which is just a big planet orbiting around a sun inside the Afterlife cannot be universal in size. It just can't. It falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny. It's just a matter to apply logic to it
 
Becouse your not listning, it is never said afterlife is the size of mortal univese. It is said Heaven is. Anyway, ive said waht I want to, hopefuly some other staff will pick it up and run with it. They have my blessing. But I got other things to do.
 
Half U7. U7 mortal world consists of demon realm, mortal univese, other realms like suguro ROSAT etc. the other half is Heaven, Hell and the 4 aki palnets +snake way adn check in. So no, it is not only the size of mortal unvierse it is never stated as such. Both halves have more than just the mortal universe in size. ANd heaven is the only one directly said to be universe size. Done. No more. I am stepping away since this ignoring stated facts on the size of heaven and cosmology is irritating me now.
 
I am neutral on this Heaven thing, but the sun argument is honestly a bit... weak. The Kaioshin Realm also has five suns floating around it, but it's still one fifth of the size of Universe 7.

You'd be better off arguing about the validity of Videl's statement than trying to argue about "suns". That exact same Sun that is seen in the shot lights up the whole span of the Afterlife according to Herms, so it's not normal.
 
Is that shown? In the map that Sun is smaller than Heaven is. And why would that prove anything either way? If that Sun lights up the entirety of the Afterlife then it in a single second is releasing millions of times more energy than our own Sun will release in its entire billions of years lifetime. Having suns orbiting either proves nothing in regards to scale when they are supernatural

But I digress. I 100% agree with the speed feat being legit, though. Just lowball that distance and the timeframe.
 
If your comforatable applying only the low ball then I will back that over nothing at all, even if I still maintain my origional is perfectly reasonable. But I have to leave it to the staff at this point since ultimatly it is not my call on it getting used or not.
 
I agree with Matt that the entirety of the Afterlife would be universal in size since every map shows that the Other World and the Living World are two hemispheres of a larger sphere.

I also believe that flying from the Grand Kai's planet to Hell, is approximately the size of the diameter of a universe, and that Goku and Pikkon flew the distance in a very short amount of time.

It isn't logical to think it took a long time to fly the distance since Goku was in a rush and visibly worried about the damage that Cell and Frieza would cause and that he could have just teleported in to save the day. So I'm inclined to believe the timeframe is rather short that Goku would think that flying and him trying to convince Pikkon about how serious a threat Cell is, was the best decision at that moment.

So no matter how you slice it, it's probably something ridiculous in the MFTL+ range.
 
About that scouter feat...

Here. Vegeta and Nappa are probably next to the edge of the galaxy here, going by the countless nebulae and that big galaxy in the background. They could be in another galaxy, but King Kai was able to track their position so...let's go by the low end.

Low end here is 50,000 light years. In one minute, that'd be 22 billion x FTL.

Makes sense since Goku did the ship feat while he was still training. His completed gravity training self being way faster is just consistent.
 
On the subject of universal size supposedly not being contained within other universal size, I just want to mention that the size of the observable universe, that we use as a lower border for 3-A, is far smaller than the size of our actual universe, which is likely infinite.
 
Since no one else is doing it I'll just redo the calc with most "reasonable" assumptions Afterlife is = Universe in size, since the Elder Kai planet and Hell are at opposite ends the distance should be equal to the diameter of the observable universe which is ÔÇÄ8.8e26m

Time frames will be 15 minutes which results in 9.7777778e+23 m/s or 3.2615156 Quadrillio times the speed of light.

I personally don't like assumed timeframes but the sequence of events don't imply it took a substantially large amount of time before they got there.
 
i mean this does seem straight forward tbh. Though is the one aguila the revised on everyone agreed upon? If so should be good tbh
 
It is probably getting accepted, but it may have to be modified a bit first.
 
Glad we could all agree to low-ball the calc and use it. I'm fine with the 15 minutes time frame.

About the scouter feat @Kep

A scouter, like any other device akin to real life would have a receiver which picks up the communication signals sent by another scouter. That doesn't have to be the same receiver which is used to pick up ki signals because a scouter would transmit a different kind of wave (like radio waves etc) or use an altogether different type of communication system (analog, digital, etc) between each other. And ki signals can be a totally different kind of signal which might use a different type of communication system.

Now you could say I am overcomplicating a simple show, but I feel like picking up, registering and reading a ki signal from an external source is not the same as receiving a signal from another identical scouter.
 
But to add on the above, transceivers are a thing. Whenever a scouter reads a battle power it's transmitting information to the body and receiving it, the exact same way it sends messages to distant scouters by converting its electrical energy into FTL radio waves.

To make this simple, you are saying it it is able to receive messages at MFTL speeds, but at the same time can't receive messages at MFTL speeds.
 
"but it still remained very focused on power tracking. this means that the scouter's calculations are suited mainly for combat ki tracking"

Ki/power which is constant. It was made to analyze a constant power reading since no Saiyan at that time knew how to fluctuate it like Goku does here.

"you are saying it it is able to receive messages at MFTL speeds, but at the same time can't receive messages at MFTL speeds."

Completely different types of messages. Ki isn't a radio wave which the scouter can pick up at an instant.
 
> Ki/power which is constant. It was made to analyze a constant power reading since no Saiyan at that time knew how to fluctuate it like Goku does here.

This is false. Raditz's scouter was noted to be an old model and was still easily able to pick up on Gohan's wildly rapid ki fluctuation. Kui's scouter was also able to keep up with Vegeta's rapid ki raise before he released his aura. Dodoria's new scouter model easily kept up with the wild ki increase from Vegeta. Earth Vegeta's scouter kept up with Goku when he raised his BP to over 8,000. Jeice's new model was also able to keep up with Zenkai Vegeta powering up rapidly. Freeza's scouter was able to keep up with Vegeta's wild and rapid increase until it reached the >400,000 range.

> Completely different types of messages. Ki isn't a radio wave which the scouter can pick up at an instant.

...They do just that. I explained this.
 
A constant increase in power or Gohan's naturally fluctuating power is very different than Goku raising his power deliberately for just an instant. The power fluctuations you mentioned did not happen over an instant. Those fluctuations were not nearly as fast as Goku's.

Your explanation requires a lot of head canon tbh. There's no proof that Ki works as a radio wave or its signal is same as that emitted by another scouter.
 
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