Dragon ball Z speed revision

[Kepekley23]

Also, a potential speed feat for Namek Goku: he is stated by Vegeta to be able to alter his ki too fast for the scouters to pick up on. Those same scouters were able to instantly transmit an intergalactic message from Raditz all the way to Vegeta and Nappa, who in the anime fillers are in a planet outside the Milky Way when they pick up that message.

Which is easily a feat in the millions of times FTL range.

What makes me convinced that this is a legit feat is the fact that the scouters are easily able to follow the increase in ki from Goku when he powers up against Vegeta, and Kiwi's scouter also does the same with Vegeta's. Bulma's scouter only blew up because it overheated. However, Jeice's Scouter is not even able to try to follow Goku's power-up.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I wonder if there are speed feats like that in the canon Manga. Might be potential outlier if said feat is in the manga, but sounds legit in the Toei Verse at least.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I do think it's an outlier yes. It's not in the manga, and no feat by either Broly or Buu is that fast.

 

[Kepekley23]

I wonder if there are speed feats like that in the canon Manga. Might be potential outlier if said feat is in the manga, but sounds legit in the Toei Verse at least.

I actually got the scouter feat while I was reading Herms's manga translations, so yeah, the scuter feat exists in the manga. It'd be way lower since Manga Raditz only states Vegeta and Nappa are "deep within space" and all we can assume is Alpha Centauri, but it'd still be a FTL feat.

 

[Kepekley23]

Herms: "Vegeta: "Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That's probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It's for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can't pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...""

The exact same thing is present on the anime, too, but the feat is way more impressive there.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is an outlier. Either that or the capability it has to transmit messages across space doesn't match its capability to pick up movement

At this point in the manga no feat even surpasses Sub-Relativistic.

 

[AKM sama]

Yup, we can't corelate the message transmitting speed with the power level reading speed.

 

[Kepekley23]

For the manga? Maybe. Not for the ainme though. Goku in his way to Namek matched the speed of a ship that was calc'ed at 150 million times the speed of light. Him performing an even better feat after his training is done is perfectly consistent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it is an outlier for both of them. Just because Goku has a ridiculous outlier when he's traveling to Namek doesn't mean this vague thing which isn't even an applicable feat is suddenly usable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Reducing that distance to 46.5 billion light years and assuming a timeframe of five minutes (because Cell and Freeza had literally just started an uproar and Goku and Pikkon arrived before they could do muhc damage) results in roughly 4 quadrillion times the speed of light.

I also find using "half the universe" and 5 minutes also arbitrary.

 

[Kepekley23]

...It's not. We have already established why that is in the other thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is. It's not established, it's just you who's pushing for something being at the literal edge of the universe when it's not. All of the Afterlife including Hell = Size of the universe. Since neither the entrance of Hell nor the Grand Kai planet are at the literal edges, it's not width of the universe.

And going "Okay, so it should be the radius" is not a reasonable lowballing. It's just something equally baseless masquerading as a more reasonable option.

 

[Kepekley23]

@AKM

Why? It's the exact same calculation system that is being used. Whenever the scouter system reads a number, information is being instantly transmitted alongside it. Both of these things rely on calc speed. Real life computers work the same way, and scouters are computers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The scouter is sending messages to another scouter. IT's completely different than reading something that doesn't have a scouter.

It's the same thing with King Kai being able to talk telepathically with someone moving through a spaceship but being unable to track SSJ Goku's movement. The former doesn't even require tracking because relative to the spaceship Goku is motionless.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew about the scouter.

The original speed feat is probably fine though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, how I think too.

 

[Kepekley23]

> The scouter is sending messages to another scouter.

Which requires MFTL transmission speed. There is no magic about how the scouters work. In real life, NASA's Voyager takes roughly 20 hours to send images back to the Earth, because that's how far away it is relative to the speed of light. In the anime Vegeta and Nappa were shown to be an entire galaxy away from the Earth, and still received the transmission within what, seconds to generously minutes?. This is FTL tech.

> It's the same thing with King Kai being able to talk telepathically with someone moving through a spaceship but being unable to track SSJ Goku's movement. The former doesn't even require tracking because relative to the spaceship Goku is motionless.

The scouters use the exact same calculation system they use to transmit data...to transmit data. Both situations where the scouter reads battle powers and where they transmit messages utilize the same built in system that is similar to computers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, but applying the speed the scouter is able to transmit messages to space to other scouters and using that to scale the capability it has of tracking movement in battle is arbitrary.

The second point is basically just a headcanon.

 

[Kepekley23]

First off, the scan is about it picking up fluctuations in Goku's ki even when he is standing still to power up. The scouters are unable to detect any change in his power because of how rapid his ki control is. Vegeta says it outright.

1. It's not arbitrary. First off, the anime's backstory for a scouter is that its primary function was to guard Tuffles from being caught off guard by Saiyans. Only later was its usage expanded by the Freeza Army, but it still remained very focused on power tracking.; this means that the scouter's calculations are suited mainly for combat ki tracking and it being able to transmit comprehensible messages to outer space is a more secondary use. So its calculation speed when it comes to detecting ki changes should be at the very least equal to its ability to transmit messages.

2. No, it's not. The scouter is a computer as flat out stated in both the guides and the backstory. Assuming it works like any computer system would, but better (since Dr. Briefs states that Freeza tech is way better than the tech Capsule Corp. had) is a standard assumption. Not just standard but necessary.

If anything, it'd be a headcanon to suggest scouters defy basic computer properties. One that is easily countered by their backstory, anyway. You'd be better off arguing it is an outlier than trying to simply dismiss the feat, but I disagree with both.

 

[AguilaR101]

As far as I can tell the most relevant speed freat from toei is Goku reacting to debri while outside his ship as it heads full speed towards a star he later propels himself back into course with the kamehameha.

Both would require Goku to have a speed comparable to his ship which didn't take too long to reach namek (though I can't remember the actual timeframe) Which according to this map it's pretty far from earth.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

goku's ship feat was calculated at being in the low-range of MFTL+

 

[Kepekley23]

That feat was performed by Goku while he was below the Ginyu Force's level. A fully gravity trained Goku becoming considerably faster makes sense with the Ginyu Saga scaling.

Broly, Boo and Bojack's feats are all in the million FTL range and Bojack's feat is a lowball. If they were in the thousands I'd agree with an outlier scenario, yes, but they are not. We have two feats before them that are in the high million range, and we also have a Cell Saga feat that is in the high trillions. So we can't dismiss it as an outlier; that goes against our definition:

• An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent' with a character┬╣ entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are generally regarded as unusable in some forums debates. However, all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable.┬▓

┬╣ There are several feats that are not far from the result at all. So it already fails to be "irreconcibiliable", logically speaking.

┬▓ A series that has formerly shown several million and billion FTL feats going to the high trillions is not an "extreme upgrade.' It's akin to going from star busting to solar system level. It's not a high boost to make.

 

[Kepekley23]

Goku's ship feat's high end is 150 millions x FTL. And since King Kai said Namek was on a different galaxy in the original subs, the high end is most accurate.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well I do believe my calc is accurate, and it seems most others agree it is to, with Matt being the only one arguing distance, altough I don;t see him proving that it is not Universal in size, and it would contradict the source material to say it isn;t universe size. Realistically even 5 min is super low ball since Goku would likely just use IT if it was mroe than the onscreen time, but even if that low ball were necisary it would still eb a significant upgrade. Also mftl+ feats include Broly, the space ship, Bjack, Kid Bu busting up a galaxy etc. so tehy ahve many mftl+ feats even in anime alone.

From what I understand most people including staff are OK with applying this.

Also a side note Kep, thats only using 4 galaxy model for the ship, if you use the universe size model like we do now, Goku was actualy pushing a trillion times ftl.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You have to prove the positive, not I. Universe-sized heaven is demonstrably false to anyone who has a pair of eyes. It's also literally impossible as the Afterlife is itself comparable to the universe, so something inside it can't be universe-sized. Besides, it's just a rumor Videl hears.

5 minutes is not a lowball, lol. There's legit two hard cuts in the flight scene. Both after they begin to fly, to show them in another place, then after to show them land. The timeframe is quick but it's not 30 seconds. It's obviously not that immediately fast.

I disagree with using the width of the universe and 5 minutes.

 

[DMB_1]

Doesn't, like, every map of the DB universe show that the afterlife is at least as large as the mortal universe?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The whole afterlife yes.

And Heaven is inside the afterlife.

So Heaven alone being the size of the universe makes no ******* sense and should be disregarded.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Prove it's false. It is stated in the anime to give the viewer a guide to the size, in guides it is reiteradted as fact, not guess, and is shown even on map to be close to Unvierse size. Also it literally has to hold the population of all the dead from the unvierse across all history, a tiny planet like you imply could not do that. The afterlife is larger than the Universe in volumetric size according to guides and show since heaven alone is that size, but even low ball and say it is all just universe size and the calc is still a major upgrade.

Goku has IT, if it was going to take longer than a minute honestly hed teleport to Cell and Frieza instead of flying in base casually. Realisticaly he liekly made it there in 30 sec as the cut has him already there, so 5 min is low ball, 30 sec is realistic.

You have no proof it is not universe size like all source material says it is.

You can disagree but you have not presented any proof to disprove the directly stated size in multiple sources, and quick timeframe that is implied.

 

[DMB_1]

Besides, even if it wasn't, Goku still shook it from hell.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I literally just proved it as false. It is contradictory and impossible.

The maps are not to scale and show the Snake Way covering half the afterlife and King Yemma's palace as comparable to Heaven in size.

It's not realistic in the slightest. There were two scene cuts. We have no idea how long his flight left.

My prove is basic logic and common sense. You can't have something that is 10 cubic meters in volume contained inside another thing that is 10 cubic meters in size and still have massive amount of space inside to spare.

Heaven is not universal in size. The sources are objectively wrong.

 

[Spaceless98]

why 5min if the frame is 30 sec? and also why "half universe" if videl said universe. you can lowball it at 80% of the universe, but 50% doesnt have any sense...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Videl said it's a rumor. It's also demonstrably false.

We have no timeframe so we should use the basic types of things we do for every verse. Most calcs with no timeframe beyond just "fast" usually go for 5 minutes, 15 minutes and 30 minutes for high-end, mid-end and low-end respectively.

 

[SSJRyu1]

You proved nothing of the sort. Even disregarding the map it is outright stated in anime and as fact in guide. Your excuse is the planet looks small to you, when perspective and frame of referance and artistic style could make it any size in that case, and it does not disprove the directly stated facts either way. And no, it is not said that other world is only as large as the mortal universe it is said that heaven alone is, and it is part of other world. That is not a valid arguemnt as there is no proof of other world entierty only being unvierse size.

Its fiction, it isn't always realistic.

Sources > your opinion Matt. WoM is not a thing.

The timeframe is short as implied by the decision not to teleport when he could and the urgency of the situation and the fact ehy stopped Cell and Frieza as tehy were just starting an upstart. 5 min is low ball, 30 sec is realistic. Anything less is downplay.

 

[Spaceless98]

it's a rumor but it is voluntarily said by the author of the movie... so you can lowball it at 90-80% not 50%. if was 50% she would have said literally half universe...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have, Ryu. The anime is stated as a rumor Videl heard. She even poses it as a question. The planet looks normal sized because it is so.

Again, it's also impossible for something that big to be contained in the Afterlife which is itself that big. Just going "It's fiction Idunno" doesn't solve any problems. It's a logically-broken statement that doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. I don't care if "WoG" or a "Databook" state it. We are prone to disregarding both numerous times in the past when the things they say are demonstrably false.

Such as universal-sized Heaven. I understand if you want to take the word of the author as law but this is not how we do things here.

Goku didn't teleport because he was following Pikkon, not because he could get there fast.

30 seconds isn't realistic, there's a two scene cuts that render the timeframe unusable. 5 minutes is a high-ball.

in either 5 minutes, 15 minutes or 30 minutes neither Cell nor Freeza would have much time to cause much destruction considering they were just toying around.

This is like saying that Nappa is weak because he barely destroyed anything in his 3 hour rampage. Just some cities and mountains and not the planet.

Obviously, because he wasn't trying to.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We are neither using universal heaven nor 30 second timeframe. The first is disproven and illogical and the later is plainly false as it ignores the scene transitions that happen when Goku is flying making deducing a timeframe impossible.

 

[SSJRyu1]

It is said to be told to her that it is universe size as a way to show size, but then stated outright to be that size in guide, no rumor or guess work. Guide stateement > your opinion. Not to mention it ahs to hold everybody who has ever lived in teh universe, a small planet can't do that.

You have no idea the size of the planet since you ahve no idea how far from it they are so that is false. And by your logic it's like a meteor in size if they were super close.

Prove it. It is never stated Other world is only that big. Only that heaven is.

Guide + implied size from show > your opinion which you still ahven;t even proved that it is that small witha proper calc. Which you cant as you don;t know distance.

Goku could teleport both of them, and it was an immediate thereat that tehy stopped before it could get out of hand, thus a short timeframe is the only logical conclusion. If it was 30 mins then Goku would not just be sitting in base and not bothering to teleport, hed power up and get there faster as he is genuinly concerned. Your just downplaying at this point with unrealistic what ifs.

 

[Kepekley23]

If it was too far away to be reached quickly Goku would have just IT'd to Hell though, considering Grand Kai was clearly very worried and this uproar included Cell, who at the time was still the most troublesome foe to Goku.

That implies minutes of travel and not half an hour. Five to ten minutes make more sense than thirty.

 

[Kepekley23]

> in either 5 minutes, 15 minutes or 30 minutes neither Cell nor Freeza would have much time to cause much destruction considering they were just toying around.

1. Neither Goku or Grand Kai knew this. Goku was clearly very worried, even offering to have Pikkon avoid fighting Cell.

2. Cell tried to kill one of the workers right off the bat. He was saved just in time by Goku.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is rumored. She goes "It is said". A lot of things are said but they are not true.

I couldn't care less what the guide says. The guide's statement is demonstrably wrong. Should we accept everything the Naruto guides say as well? Or any guidebook for that matter? We ignore inconsistent statements for a reason. This is literally an appeal to authority from your part.

And that's a strawman. I admit it's a really large planet but they freaking use a ship to look at it from orbit. It's not that large. The perspective is impossible.

It is literally stated that the Mortal Universe and the Afterlife are two halves of the universe. The whole afterlife = mortal world. It's universal in size.

Heaven can't be universal in size if it's just a small part of the Afterlife.

Pikkon was outspeeding Goku and not listening to him, nor did Goku want to teleport, he wanted to reason with Pikkon who ignored him and kept flying. And yes, 30 minutes is a short timeframe. It's legit how we tend to go with these things. 5 - 15 - 30 are realistic short timeframes for these things and 5 minutes is high-balling.

Accusing me of downplay is not a good argument. I am simply not giving Dragon Ball Z special treatment. Which it already receives plenty of.