Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think the OP looks great, though, the Kaioken 10x jump seems iffy IMO, so is the PL being higher than 1st form Frieza. Base Ginyu saga Goku being at least 0.56c scaling from Kaioken times 4 Saiyan saga Goku seems legit, but maybe it might be safer to just say 1st form Frieza is at least 2.24c since Goku was legit able to use Kaioken x4 in Saiyan saga, and used Kaioken x2 in front of Ginyu; so Frieza should easily be FTL in all variants. This would put Kaioken x20 Goku and 50% Final form Frieza at 44.8c FTL+ and Super Saiyan and 100% Frieza being 89.6c. Every Android saga and Buu saga would keep the At least for sure.

Also, I personally think we should keep Kaioken multipliers, because everyone just being At least Relativistic, likely Far higher seems redundant. Especially since there's like 4 or 5 FTL statements even in the early series, most of them are obvious hyperboles.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I'd just find it hypocritical to accept NNT amps, Bleach amps and others while rejecting this imo.

 

[Kaltias]

I don't get this bit here. Beerus has his own feat for his speed. The people weaker than him have their own feats and multipliers that effect the people faster than them. I don't see why Beerus having a feat and not multipliers has anything to do with consistency.

The point is, no one has actual feats on the level they reach via multipliers.

So the speed via multipliers is outlierish because it dwarfs all the other quantifiable feats up to DBS.

It's the same as Roshi's moon bust.

Do people above Roshi eventually start scaling from better feats? Yeah sure, but that's in DBZ during the Saiyan Saga.

Similarly, do people eventually reach higher speeds than the one granted via multipliers? Yes, sure, but only in DBS

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we do know the levels of first form Frieza and Super Perfect Cell, and I see no better way to approximate the power of everybody in-between.

If we do not use this system, we would end up with unsatisfactory guesswork, so I much prefer if we do use it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Same, I agree with Antvasima that it's best to find a rough where in between estimate rather than having a repeated, at least, likely far higher for every single character with A > B > C > D > ect.

 

[Damage3245]

ByAsura, while that is a decent collection of speed feats from the manga, how many of those are objectively good feats?

> Obviously we have weighted Piccolo destroying the moo with a power level less than 329. Which was calced to be 14% SoL in the comments of the Moon Bust.

This is the primary feat from which all of theses issues come from. While the speed may be correct from the view of calcing it, I find it quite odd that no other Ki blasts from the series seems to come close to this level of speed until the Cell Saga.

 

[Stefano4444]

Same, I agree with Antvasima that it's best to find a rough where in between estimate rather than having a repeated, at least, likely far higher for every single character with A > B > C > D > ect.

Yeah, having Majin Buu ranked at "Relativistic, likely far higher" would be really redundant other than plain stupid, with the massive speed difference between him and Raditz it cannot be possible for the former still be just Relativistic.

 

[ByAsura]

@Damage

Some of the other space ones, like the space pods, the Cell one, and Goku traveling over 20,000 kilometers in a short time. But if it's downgraded, there's still sub-rel feats for lower tiers, and rel feats for higher ones that could become FTL and FTL+ for higher ones.

I agree now that the Moon bust could be an outlier, but I'm not going to agree with it totally being an outlier. Dragon Ball is not very particular, where everything has to be the same level because powerscaling dictates it should be that, way. There's suppression, area of effect, cinematic timing, etc. Like most verses.

Also, it might not be just blasts. In the series characters are able to dodge the explosions of Ki Blasts from similar opponents, so we have other feats that could be here, like Relativistic Planet busting scaling to speed.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm pretty sure Piccolo was described to be unable to react to a laser from Freeza that was described as "a flash of light" after Freeza entered his final form. That might be relevant. I may be misremembering though.

Also, I think the Goku travelling around half of the planet feat was already debunked. Freeza's ship was not far away from where they were all fighting.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I heavily disagree with Piccolo's moon busting feat being an outlier, Roshi's is and outlier for sure, but not Piccolo's. That's like calling all of Superman's 4-B and Massively FTL+ speed feats outliers because he lost to Batman or Muhammed Ali, struggled to lift up an airplane, used and ordinary brick to block Darkseid's Omega beams, Wonder Woman both struggling and getting injured by bullets, ect.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Medeus.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not saying that Piccolo blowing up the Moon blast is an outlier, I'm saying that the result for the speed of that attack and applying it to other feats (such as Raditz dodging Piccolo) is leading to outliers...

Also... hang on, how is this not an example of calc stacking?

If you're calcing Piccolo's Ki Blast speed for a separate feat, and applying it to the feat of Raditz dodging a different Ki blast... Isn't that a basic case of calc stacking?

 

[Stefano4444]

This is the primary feat from which all of theses issues come from. While the speed may be correct from the view of calcing it, I find it quite odd that no other Ki blasts from the series seems to come close to this level of speed until the Cell Saga.

I think it just a matter of perspective, most Ki Attacks in the series have been show from the perspective of someone like Son Goku, characters that that capable to see, react and move at speed comparable with the Ki Attacks, while if it was from the perspective of a normal human we wouldn't see that much, like the people that were watching the fight between Roshi and Krillin back in the first Budokai in the series.

And for having no other feats that the one of Piccolo, i can see what you're saying but that doesn't automatically put the validity of feat intro question, i mean we never actually see characters faster than Raditz struggle with energy beams stated/show to move at speed far below Relativistic.

 

[ByAsura]

@Damage

If you're saying it's light, this has been said in a bird studio guide IIRC, but then there's contradictions, namely when Goku deflects it the beam starts to segment, same as when he fires it against Piccolo. Plus it produces force, as seen when it blew up the land after Vegeta pushed Gohan away from the beam. Also it bends in the planet cutting scans I gave.

Edit: Didn't Piccolo refer to the flash of light as what he saw?

Ok, can you prove it wasn't though? I remember them having traveled to much further areas while fighting.

 

[Stefano4444]

If you're calcing Piccolo's Ki Blast speed for a separate feat, and applying it to the feat of Raditz dodging a different Ki blast... Isn't that a basic case of calc stacking?

But both are basically the same type of attack, there is no reason to question the possibility that each of them were moving at the same speed, not when Piccolo was less holding back again Raditz than when he has destroyed the Moon.

Especially if Raditz was able to react and dodge the Makakosappo, an attack supposed to be Piccolo's trump card, which should make that attack both more powerful and much faster than a basic Ki Blast.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That just sounds like Power scaling. We calc'd Piccolo's speed at Relativistic which is no outlier in terms of speed or Attack Potency, and Raditz can dodge the same attack at point blank which is combat speed feat. Example of calc stacking is assuming someone has Relativist+ speed because that's what would generate a Small City level punch, despite never demonstrating said speed on screen.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage
If you're saying it's light, this has been said in a bird studio guide IIRC, but then there's contradictions, namely when Goku deflects it the beam starts to segment, same as when he fires it against Piccolo. Plus it produces force, as seen when it blew up the land after Vegeta pushed Gohan away from the beam. Also it bends in the planet cutting scans I gave.

Edit: Didn't Piccolo refer to the flash of light as what he saw?

Ok, can you prove it wasn't though? I remember them having traveled to much further areas while fighting.

Never mind, I cannot find a reference to the flash of light in the Viz scans... I was probably thinking of Dragon Ball Abridged.

Since everything looks virtually the same on the planet Namek it would be hard to prove but from what I can remember, Gohanb and Krillin moved the Dragon Balls a short distance from Freeza's ship. Then Freeze appears and fights Vegeta, then Piccolo appears and the battles continue in the same general vicinity until Goku wakes up. Then he dashes over there.

I don't remember a time when they trevelled a significant distance fom the ship.

@Stefano, actually they're two different types of Ki blasts just based on appearances / names alone, but the point still stands right? It is calc stacking going by the description on the calc stacking page.

 

[ByAsura]

Alright. I guess I'll have a look at the chapters to see for myself.

What do you think about Ki Explosions scaling to speed? I can get some series examples if needed.

 

[Damage3245]

Do you mean someone creating an explosion through a Ki blast and another person outrunning the explosion or something?

 

[Stefano4444]

@Stefano, actually they're two different types of Ki blasts just based on appearances / names alone

Based on Appearances and Name? Give one second please.

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111275401/5237694-6854450654-47353.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Xwg8zz3.jpg

Sorry but in either cases Piccolo exclaimed any specific name while firing the blast, he had only scream in anger again Raditz and say something like "Begone!" with the Moon.

Are you telling me that the Piccolo was exclaiming the name of his attack when he has destroyed the moon? It that specific technique named "Begone!" or "Get Lost!"?

 

[Damage3245]

Err, Stefano, that isn't the Ki blast I was referring to. I'm referring to the Special Beam Cannon.

I think we've probably been talking about two different things this whole time...

 

[ByAsura]

@Damage

Yes.

 

[Kaltias]

If we do not use this system, we would end up with unsatisfactory guesswork, so I much prefer if we do use it.

So an outlier is better than guesswork?

Because that's my argument.

MFTL/FTL+ Frieza is an outlier because no feat ever reaches that level before DBS

If anything ByAsura's post strengthens my argument because most of these feats are Sub-Relativistic to Relativistic

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage
Yes.

If there are examples which could go towards clearing up the speed issue then that'd be great.

 

[ByAsura]

Alright. I checked the fights, and they only seem to be within a few kilometers, but it's hard to tell.

Edit: I couldn't find anything important.

 

[Stefano4444]

Err, Stefano, that isn't the Ki blast I was referring to. I'm referring to the Special Beam Cannon.

I thought you were talking about that Ki Blast, Raditz kinda reacted that attack since he was able to negate Piccolo's blast by simply raise his Ki to increase his durability.

Still my point remain, the Makakosappo is supposed to be Piccolo's strongest attack up to that point, its unlikely that it would be slower than a basic Ki Blast, especially when it was never mention or suggested anything like that.

 

[Dark649]

- BoZ Piccolo feat is not an outlier, Goku stated the he was in a perfect condition and thought he could even take x10 with his Kaioken, but never showed it until Frieza. If the KKx10 thing is disgregarded then the speeds would remain as what Medeus said.

- I placed the likes of 18/17 at Star level because their current High 4-C rating is too high, but they should be a very little two times stronger than 68 Tenatons 100% Namek Frieza as slightly over 136 Tenatons, i can put Semi-Cell as at least Star level, but the likes of Perfect Cell must be Large Star level since Shin has a Large Star level feat and S.P Cell has a Solar System level one.

 

[Kaltias]

The feat is not an outlier. I already said that.

The inflated speed via multipliers is

 

[ByAsura]

If we're using Kaioken for strength, durability, etc, than why not for speed? How is it inflated when Goku consistently says it increases everything?

Edit: I didn't see before, it's multiplier stacking, so forget this comment.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For speed you could try to calc the speed needed to barely sidestep the SBC. Wait no, that's calc stacking.

 

[Kaltias]

Because it's inconsistent with the speed feats.

I do not care if you want to say "let's apply it only to AP and durability" because this way is consistent, but I already explained multiple times why stacking multipliers on their speed like that leads to outliers

 

[LightinAnt]

@Kaltias

That would be ignoring in universe explanations on how Ki and scaling works

 

[Damage3245]

For speed you could try to calc the speed needed to barely sidestep the SBC. Wait no, that's calc stacking.

Huh. I thought Raditz going hit speed rating from a calc involving Piccolo's moon-blasting speed Ki blasts, but apparently there is no calc for it which I guess technically makes his rating not calc stacking right now.

Though, how do we know Raditz currently is Relativistic then? Because you don't necessarily need to be as fast as a bullet to narrowly move out of the way, right?

 

[Qawsedf234]

KK seems like a all or nothing thing. We either accept that it increases speed or just get rid of it all together. Otherwise its just cherry picking what people say about the ability.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> I thought Raditz going hit speed rating from a calc involving Piccolo's moon-blasting speed Ki blasts

Iirc the moon calc said it took like 8.29 seconds for the rocks to fall or something. 238,900 miles / 8.29 seconds = 28,817.85 miles per second

28,817.85 / 186,282.397 (speed of light) = 0.15469 or 15.469% light speed. Which I think is the scale the site uses.

 

[ByAsura]

He dodged it at the very last moment. Also, this is a far faster attack than the moon blast.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Checked. It was 8.92 seconds, which would make the beam 14.37% light speed.

> He dodged it at the very last moment.

He still only needed to move a few inches while the beam had to move multiple feat

> Also, this is a far faster attack than the moon blast.

Stronger sure, but faster would be making assumptions.

 

[LightinAnt]

Not really an assumption when the Special Beam cannon is faster and stronger than a regular ki blast

 

[ByAsura]

It'd scale to reactions, which means people like Vegeta would scale in turn.

Not really. It's fairly consistently shown higher power level = faster. Vegeta states this against Cui, and the only exception was ever Ginyu, and even then it was just flight speed and not combat, travel speed, or reaction speed.

Also, just earlier, Goku's Super Kamehameha (which was 924 IIRC) kept up somewhat with Raditz.

 

[Damage3245]

Checked. It was 8.92 seconds, which would make the beam 14.37% light speed.

What was Piccolo's speed before this feat?

Does nobody find it odd that Piccolo jumps up from something like Massively Hypersonic to 14.37% light speed with a seemingly ordinary Ki blast attack?