Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

[LightinAnt]

@Kaltias

On what multiplier? You mean calcing powerlevels? I thought you meant in universe multipliers

 

[Damage3245]

Also considering the speed is based entirely upon a single calced feat with nothing else supporting it from the entirety of Dragon Ball Z... I think it's alright to be rather skeptical towards it.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

>Stacking multipliers isn't present.
The proposal in the OP is a x1600 increase based on multiplier stacking

And again, bigger multiplier requires a greater evidence. A statement alone won't cut it

What do you mean by a statement alone? Kaioken not only has been consistently said to multiply it's user's power, it has also consistently being displayed as giving the user the amount of power that would require. It's supported by multiple statements and showings without contradiction.

 

[Kaltias]

Again:

" For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary."

After the stacking, it's a x1600 increase.

It would require more evidence than "this guy is stronger after using it"

 

[Kepekley23]

Reminder that it's only ever one or two increases at a time in the arc, so using the total value after both the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs is extremely misleading.

 

[Kaltias]

"If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case."

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Again:
" For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary."

After the stacking, it's a x1600 increase.

It would require more evidence than "this guy is stronger after using it"

What exactly are you asking for? Do you want data of exactly how much Goku got stronger by each Kaioken multiplier? This shows that in order to get a high multiplier accepted, all you need is statements from a reliable person(King Kai who invented the technique) and consistency(aka Kaioken's multipliers doing exactly what they're told to do in story and letting him do things that would require that level of boost).

 

[LightinAnt]

Exactly where is this 1600x multiplier coming from? Also we have accepted Kaioken multipliers

 

[Dziga]

This seems acceptable.

 

[Stefano4444]

Again:
" For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary."

Like how Goku could hold his own and match Frieza in combat?

A character that in Base Form was capable to generate Dwarf Star level power casually?

1.7 Tenatons / 70 Zettatons = 1.7e30/7.0e22 = 24,285,714.3

So yeah, the characters having a jump of speed of about thousands of times over doesn't seen so unlikely now.

 

[Huesito88]

@LightinAnt 4 times (Kaioken times 4 Goku Saiyan saga) 10 times (Kaioken times 10 Goku Namek hypothetical) 20 times (Goku with Kaioken times 20 against Frieza) 2 (Frieza only used half his power against Kaioken times 20 Goku).

All combined is a 1600x multiplier.

 

[Kaltias]

x1600 comes from the OP. And the fact that we accepted Kaioken as legit long before we had standards for multipliers means nothing.

Also, the fact that the weakest guy with a speed feat above the one obtained via multipliers is Beerus should say something about consistency

 

[Damage3245]

Gotenks has a speed feat that is way below the end result of these multipliers, and Piccolo struggled to keep up with his speed... That's also pretty telling.

 

[Stefano4444]

Also, the fact that the weakest guy with a speed feat above the one obtained via multipliers is Beerus should say something about consistency

You're speaking about a guy that is casually quadrillions of times FTL, how exactly that disprove Early DBZ Piccolo of having Relativistic speed?

Inconsistency is when character had difficulty in perform feats very underwhelming even when before they have display far more impressive feats.

 

[LightinAnt]

@Damage3245

And Roshi busted the moon in DB, yet we call that an outlier, that's not an argument

 

[Kaltias]

@Stefano

You missed my point.

Name one feat in DBZ of someone going multiple times faster than light.

Because accepting Kaioken means MFTL Frieza

 

[Stefano4444]

Name one feat in DBZ of someone going multiple times faster than light.

Aside for Piccolo's Moon busting feat (and Master Roshi's Moon busting feat) then none, but that doesn't mean now the former must be without doubt an outlier.

And tell me how many dwarf star level busting feats do we have in DBZ? Aside Frieza there is none, so what we're now to disgregar that feat as well? Having everyone at Large Planet level up to SCP?

Because accepting Kaioken means MFTL Frieza

And that's a problem because? Did Toriyama himself come you to conferm that MFTL speed its impossible for DBZ characters? Its was stated in the series that no one can react/move that fast?

If the Kaioken Multipliers can be use and the scaling is correct then i don't see problem with Frieza be thousands of times faster than Raditz, especially when he is already millions of times more powerful than him even in Base Form.

 

[Kaltias]

Dwarf Star Level Frieza isn't outlierish because people above him have tier 4 feats and statements.

Not the case for speed

And I hope that you know that lack of literally any supporting feat is a textbook outlier

 

[Damage3245]

While Piccolo blowing up the moon is not an outlier in terms of AP, no other ki blast seems to replicate that level of speed for most of the series. In fact there are significant anti-feats for travel speed throughout the rest of the series.

 

[LightinAnt]

@Damage3245

And Ki-Blasts also only create small explosions, guess that makes them wall level AP, flawed logic my friend

 

[Stefano4444]

While Piccolo blowing up the moon is not an outlier in terms of AP, no other ki blast seems to replicate that level of speed for most of the series. In fact there are significant anti-feats for travel speed throughout the rest of the series.

You know that making the speed of the Ki Blast invalid you are making invalid the entire feat as well, since the result is also depend by that factor.

And about anti-feats, how many of those anti-feats are in the series? And in what context?

Because if you're talking about Ki Blasts moving slow in combat, then it just cinematic timing, just like how we can see a fight between characters supposed of moving faster than human eye can see.

 

[The_Calaca]

> Anti-feats

Regular humans watching MFTL fights in 6 vs 7 Tournament MFTL+ fights.

40 tons.

Magetta (manga).

Goku damaged by a bullet (even the stretchiest explanation doesn't convince me).


All of that are outliers and inconsistencies with the main scaling.

 

[Kaltias]

You guys know that you are the ones who need to prove the consistency, right?

No one is saying that cinematic timing isn't a thing. We are saying that there is no feat making it consistent

 

[LightinAnt]

@Calaca Vs

Goku supresses himself immensily to the point of regular human in regular life, in filler he got hurt by a rock. Manga isn't canon to the anime continuity and has many outliers.

 

[Kepekley23]

I hope you are not trying to downgrade the Relativistic speed.

 

[Kaltias]

I'm not (because that one has one or two Sub-Rel feats supporting it).

I'm just arguing against 200+ c Frieza

 

[Kepekley23]

Alright.

 

[SomebodyData]

Imma have to join Kal here, though I think the issue is the hypothetical kkx10 Goku. I think its a bit too speculative while everything else seems backed.

 

[ByAsura]

I guess I can compile some speed feats. I'll use early DB as well for some supporting. I won't get everything, like FTE or total outliers (FTL Goku or Rel Roshi).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Heads up, the highest one you'll get is Piccolo's feat.

 

[ByAsura]

I aready know of a higher feat than that, which may not be an outlier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Unless it's Frieza's Supernova speed, I doubt it, but please tell me anyway. I'm not saying that to be rude, as it could've sounded condescending and if it did, I apologize.

 

[ByAsura]

I know you weren't being rude.

The Space Pods, even when slowing down, still have some massive feats, also Cell was going to destroy the Solar System with his kamehameha.

 

[Warren_Valion]

"- First Form Frieza = Dwarf Star level [1.7 Tenatons], Post Zenkai Goku = At least Dwarf Star level [At least 1,7 Tenatons], KKx20 Post Zenkai Goku = Small Star level [34 Tenatons], 100% Frieza = Small Star level [68 Tenatons], Android 18 = Star level, Semi-Perfect Cell = Large Star level."

Why is Andriod 18 Star level and Semi-Perfect Cell Large Star level?

Other than that I agree.

 

[Kepekley23]

The space pods are only in the double digit Mach range when they slow down.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm talking about when they're exiting or entering a planet, not really traveling on it, like Vegeta's pod.

 

[ByAsura]

Goku, as a kid, was trained to be faster than lightning, and he did indeed complete this training.

Piccolo's blast is this fast.

Obviously we have weighted Piccolo destroying the moo with a power level less than 329. Which was calced to be 14% SoL in the comments of the Moon Bust.

Nappa's extremely casual blast lights up part of Earth. I'm pretty sure this is only MHS though.

Edit: Around MHS to Sub-Rel depending on a time frame (10s or 1s) even using just the middle part of the explosion instead of the outer edges.

Vegeta, Gohan, and The Elder sense the Ginyu force's pods, despite them getting from here to here extremely quick. I'll try calc it later. I only got 3151.6 km/s (barely Sub-Relativistic) when using a 10 second time frame and angle sizing, and 31,516 km/s when using 1 second (10.5126051 SoL, or barely Relativistic). I guess I remembered this scene wrong.

I'm not sure if this really is true, but Goku goes around "half" of Namek's equatorial distance in what seems to be seconds. This was according to an official cover.

Frieza is stated to have cut through the planet "itself".

A weakened base Goku (his Ki was said to have gone down after using x20) pulls down a Spirit bomb this fast.

King Cold states he could oneshot Earth, though it's not told if he could do it from there, but it seems to be implied as Frieza is talking about invading Earth. Also the fighters can sense this despite it being faster than a space pod.

Yamcha implies he'd notice, or it should take some time for Goku to move 10,000 kilometers and back.

Super Saiyan Grade 2 Vegeta's Final Flash extends to space after suppressing his beam.

Cell's kamehameha extends to space.

Now we have Cell destroying the Solar System from Earth, which we accepted.

Now, before this gets critiqued, the Dragon Ball Super Anime and Manga have virtually no MFTL+ feats from Goku and Vegeta, but they're there because they scale to MFTL+ characters and have boosts this high.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that ByAsura makes sense, and that we should use the Kaioken multipliers, but that's me.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Also, the fact that the weakest guy with a speed feat above the one obtained via multipliers is Beerus should say something about consistency

I don't get this bit here. Beerus has his own feat for his speed. The people weaker than him have their own feats and multipliers that effect the people faster than them. I don't see why Beerus having a feat and not multipliers has anything to do with consistency.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Kaioken being a 5-20 Amp seems alright.