GodlyCharmander
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Discord/Reddit Powerscaling be like:
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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
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Tiktok scalers be like:
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I only recall someone made a content revision for Trunks to be upgraded, l do not remember the full reason however.
GodlyCharmander
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- #85
What downgrade are you talking about?
I've read that whole part of the manga and found nothing that suggest that trunks is stronger than king cold + frieza's power, he did stomp both of them completely and one shot them but that's not enough for 2x increase I think. Can you find the original reason?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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They downscale from them. Android 17 also sated that SSJ Vegeta + SSJ Trunks + Piccolo > Android 18, so the gap isn't big enough for them to not scale as well
Vizer04
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The Ginyu Force, they shouldn't be 79.28 Zettatons
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They should be infinite zettatons
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Unfunny
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Still factual
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All Ginyu Force members save Guldo have higher PL than KKx4 S Saga Goku. That and Recoome literally bodied a Vegeta who despite 2 zenkai boosts withstood the KKx4 Kamehameha before those. So I think them all scaling from 1.3x 5-B is fine.
But I'm fine with removing Trunks 2x multiplier but note he's still a lot stronger than Goku was in Frieza saga and then instead giving it to Future 17 whom Goku, Vegeta, and Present Androids upscale.
But I'm fine with removing Trunks 2x multiplier but note he's still a lot stronger than Goku was in Frieza saga and then instead giving it to Future 17 whom Goku, Vegeta, and Present Androids upscale.
Vizer04
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No, it's not fine
Vizer04
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- #94
I think it's also fine if we scale the ginyu force above kk4 goku, vegeta had a power level of 30000 but recoome completely destroyed him, freeza compared nail to his most elite warriors (who are the ginyu force) and he had a pl of 42000, nails profile also scales him to >= to them. I don't know about the k4 kamehameha scaling to vegeta though, it doesn't really make sense for me but I'll see what peoples opinions are.
Okay so I think it's fine to remove trunks multiplier unless anyone has a source that supports it.
So I just need opinions on ginyu force scaling and trunks.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Does Trunks have any statement regarding multipliers? Mecha Frieza was stated to be cosiderably stronger (or even several times) than 100% Frieza and was confident that he could beat SSJ Goku
Also yeah, SSJ Trunks could at least put somewhat of a fight against Future Android 17 (though not damage him. Vegeta however, does hurt Present Android 18 in their battle), but was easily one shotted by Present Android 17
Vizer04
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Sorry but i still don't agree with the Ginyu Force scaling to Goku KKx4
BlastX
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In the english dub he was stated to be x10 than he was before.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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That's anime Trunks though. We're talking manga here
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Okay, instead of worrying about the Zarbon or Ginyu Force, the 1.3x should have Vegeta be the main focus since baseline was his AP feat and 1.3x baseline was his durability feat. Pretty sure a post zenkai Vegeta would have a higher AP rating than a pre zenkai Vegeta's durability. Especially after 2 of them. I honestly do not mind a transformed Zarbon being upgraded, but Ginyu Force should definitely be above Saiyan Saga Vegeta's durability. Furthermore, after one zenkai, he oneshotted Cui who is equal with Saiyan saga Vegeta in every way.
Vizer04
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Someone already explained why the durability argument doesn't hold up
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Why we scale Vegeta to times 4 Kaioken? Goku stomped him even with Kaioken times 3 and he only needed KK4 becasue of the added power of the Galick Gun
Also Vegeta was heavily damaged afterwards, and was forced to use his Oozaru form
Also Vegeta was heavily damaged afterwards, and was forced to use his Oozaru form
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- #102
Bump.
I am neutral about recoome burter and jeice scaling to kk4 goku, there are arguments for and against this, so I'll leave this for you all to decide.
Is it fine to update the original post and remove Trunks' 2x multiplier?
I am neutral about recoome burter and jeice scaling to kk4 goku, there are arguments for and against this, so I'll leave this for you all to decide.
Is it fine to update the original post and remove Trunks' 2x multiplier?
GodlyCharmander
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Adding my 2 cents on this.
"According to Daizenshuu 7, Recoome fought all his battles only half-serious.", says the DBZ Wiki. I did find the Daizenshuu 7 in japanese, but I couldn't find that statement. If someone knows japanese, you're free to look.
Either way, we can estimate Recoome wasn't that serious.
Vegeta had an official power level of 30.000, this was also stated in the manga (Kanzenban re-release, in the 1990 release, it was mistakenly "over 20.000")
Recoome is far higher than 30.000
Jeice and Butter are comparable to Recoome according to Gohan and Krillin.
Ginyu estimated Goku has a power level of 60.000 after learning he defeated his soldiers.
Jeice implies 60.000 is an impressive reading
It's very clear that, the Ginyu Force is far higher than 30.000, but far below 60.000
Freeza states 42000 is a "fine add to his men", therefore I'd say Ginyu Force is ~40.000, and it's completely fair to scale them to Kaioken x4 Goku.
If that's not enough for you, okay, we can do this:
Attack Potency: Planet Level (59 Zettatons, likely 79.28 Zettatons)
Much like we do with speed. Still, it's very absurd to say 59 Zettatons is a considerable possibility given how 32.000 vs 30.000 would likely be an even match, which it wasn't.
I say they're 79.3 Zettatons flat.
"According to Daizenshuu 7, Recoome fought all his battles only half-serious.", says the DBZ Wiki. I did find the Daizenshuu 7 in japanese, but I couldn't find that statement. If someone knows japanese, you're free to look.
Either way, we can estimate Recoome wasn't that serious.
Vegeta had an official power level of 30.000, this was also stated in the manga (Kanzenban re-release, in the 1990 release, it was mistakenly "over 20.000")
Recoome is far higher than 30.000
Jeice and Butter are comparable to Recoome according to Gohan and Krillin.
Ginyu estimated Goku has a power level of 60.000 after learning he defeated his soldiers.
Jeice implies 60.000 is an impressive reading
It's very clear that, the Ginyu Force is far higher than 30.000, but far below 60.000
Freeza states 42000 is a "fine add to his men", therefore I'd say Ginyu Force is ~40.000, and it's completely fair to scale them to Kaioken x4 Goku.
If that's not enough for you, okay, we can do this:
Attack Potency: Planet Level (59 Zettatons, likely 79.28 Zettatons)
Much like we do with speed. Still, it's very absurd to say 59 Zettatons is a considerable possibility given how 32.000 vs 30.000 would likely be an even match, which it wasn't.
I say they're 79.3 Zettatons flat.
Nullflowerblush
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- #106
I know pretty much all this already but good job I agree with this.
But with that daizenshuu statement, can we upgrade recoome to 120 zettatons straight up?
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If we interpret half serious as half power, than sure.
GodlyCharmander
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It depends how we interpret it.
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What are the conclusions here so far?
Also:
@AKM sama @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @SamanPatou @Crabwhale @Antoniofer
What do you think about this?
Also:
@AKM sama @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @SamanPatou @Crabwhale @Antoniofer
What do you think about this?
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- #110
No one disagreed so far. We are currently talking about ginyu force scaling and getting rid of Trunks' multiplier.
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I honestly don't think there's any contention with removing Trunks being twice as strong as Mecha Frieza since there's seemingly no evidence for it besides him shit stomping Mecha Frieza and King Cold, which I don't think we give a character the combined ap of the people they stomped at the same time unless the group used a combined attack and the character overpowered it (which didn't happen here).
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If there is no concrete justification we should get rid of that.
If we disregard the 2x Future Trunks thing, then Future Trunks, Future Gohan, Future Goku and Yardrat Goku would scale to 244.5 tenatons.
Future 17/18 and Present 17/18 will scale to 489 tenatons.
Present SSJ Goku and Vegeta were no match for 17/18 so they should only scale above 244.5 tenatons, not to 489 tenatons. We don't know exactly how much stronger present androids were in comparison to their future counterparts, and they defeated the saiyans effortlessly so there isn't any reason to eyeball and scale.
About this, Gohan went SSJ to pull out. He was fine lifting it in his base form only. Which implies that pulling out requires more energy than lifting. We never see Shin ever try to lift it. We only know that he can't pull out. So this can't really be used to claim base saiyans are stronger than Shin.
This is a better logic. But it could also be the case that Shin was just not expecting the saiyans to be that strong and wanted to take extra safety measures because he was aware of Babidi's magic. Although, if we do accept base Saiyans to be stronger than Shin, that will also make base Saiyans stronger than Piccolo.
Btw, I am running a little busy, so I apologize for delay in replies. I have more to say on it so I will be back again.
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Yeah we already decided that is the best action.
Actually vegeta did very well against 18, he was weaker yes but was holding his own was able to damage 18, and keep up with her, and all the Z fighters were impressed, even android 17 was impressed, the main reason vegeta lost was due to his stamina dropping while 18s stamina is infinite and in comparison trunks who broke his sword on 18's body and got two shot while vegeta could still fight after taking a beating and getting his arm broken. He and Goku should scale to present 17/18 especially since he did very well against a much stronger android than the one who scales to the 2x value (present 17/18 > future 17/18).
I know and took that into account. Shin was inpressed with gohan even weilding the sword and didn't even try to hold it himself. But that is not enough which is why I brought like 13 different reasons why they scale above shin in base and use this as supporting.
That might be true for pui pui, but not for yakon where he straight up suggest they all jump him at the same time. There's also dabura's statement. And yes that makes base saiyans above piccolo, the scan is right there of vegeta claiming that he can win the tournament despite piccolo participating without using super saiyan.
It's okay. Thank you for your help.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Android 17 states that the combined might of SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Trunks and Piccolo would be too much for Android 18 to handle by herself, which is why Android 17 allowed Vegeta to fight her, but alone, as if the others will join too, so will Android 17. That means that: SSJ Vegeta + SSJ Trunks + Piccolo > Android 18
As Trunks is very clearly far below SSJ Vegeta at this point, the difference between Vegeta and Android 18 is not very big
Also, Trunks states that Vegeta is managing to hold his own very well against Android 18, who is fighting at full power at this point. Trunks also mentioned that despite the power gap between the Androids and SSJ Gohan being at least 2 times, Trunks was able to put somewhat of a fight against them, but the same Trunks was also defeated in a single attack by Present 17
That would mean that Vegeta should definitely scale above the Future Androids (who are much weaker than the present Androids), as he put up a very good fight against Androids far stronger than the ones Trunks had to face in the Future. Also, the 489 Tenatons comes from Future 17, not the present 17
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I still have other things I want to add, but will get to that later.
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Bump, I edited the original post and removed trunks' 2x multiplier.
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