Dragon Ball Super - Jiren and Co. Upgrade via Void Scaling

[ZillertheBucko]

Oh my ******* god, there was alot of arguments, which one do you want me to repeat AGAIN?

I don’t know which one you want me to repeat genius, you’re the one who made the argument, I’m the one asking you

 

[Darksmash]

You don't prove a negative, you have to prove why they can, not that i have to prove why they can't

Except the OP is the one making a "claim" that the GoDs fight did not shake the void, which needs to be proven. You can easily take the neutral path and reject the CRT just on the basis that there is no information whether the void was shaken in that fight or not. We don't need to force conclusions in the face of vague information.

 

[Sus]

I don’t know which one you want me to repeat genius, you’re the one who made the argument, I’m the one asking you

What? When did i ask you to repeat anything? I asked you "what argument do you want me to answer"

Please, i beg you, try to actually understand what im saying

 

[Maitreya12]

You now have to provide evidence 1 GOD can perform the feat 3 GOD’s performed.
that is how a positive claim works.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

1. Belmod is stronger than most gods
2.

Do we know he was refering to Belmod itself, and not other God like Quitela?

 

[DivineAura44]

This was said about him while heavily supressed.

 

[Sus]

Except the OP is the one making a "claim" that the GoDs fight did not shake the void, which needs to be proven. You can easily take the neutral path and reject the CRT just on the basis that there is no information whether the void was shaken in that fight or not. We don't need to force conclusions in the face of vague information.

No they didn't claim anything, the wov wasn't shaked by gods like it was by goku and jiren

You're trying to say they did shake it but that never happened

 

[Aachintya31]

1. Belmod is stronger than most gods
2.

Hey you are cherry picking that was for arm wrestling but ok

 

[Sus]

Do we know he was refering to Belmod itself, and not other God like Quitela?

The statement is about jiren sooo

 

[DivineAura44]

Do we know he was refering to Belmod itself, and not other God like Quitela?

My point was that Jiren > Beerus but I guess you are right that we technically don't have prove of Beerus = 2nd strongest God. However I posted another scan.

 

[Yohata]

1. Belmod is stronger than most gods
2.

This was stated before even they meet jiren
No prove he is talking about jiren and his god = no prove that belmond is stronger then beerus

It can be one of the universes that didn't participate

We only know that jiren is stronger then belmond
Nothing else

 

[Sus]

We already accepted jiren and goku to be > beerus

If someone disagrees, please make your own crt

 

[DivineAura44]

Hey you are cherry picking that was for arm wrestling but ok

No it wasnt??? This isn't the manga.

 

[Darksmash]

No they didn't claim anything, the wov wasn't shaked by gods like it was by goku and jiren

You're trying to say they did shake it but that never happened

Saying it didn't happen is a positive claim that needs to be proven, as it asserts a truth value for something that we don't know.

I am not saying it happened, I am saying the argument is fundamentally invalid because it makes an assumption about something we don't know.

 

[Maitreya12]

Except the OP is the one making a "claim" that the GoDs fight did not shake the void, which needs to be proven. You can easily take the neutral path and reject the CRT just on the basis that there is no information whether the void was shaken in that fight or not. We don't need to force conclusions in the face of vague information.

Even if they did shake the void that simply slightly shifts the scaling chain from 3 GOD’s<WoV shaking to 3 GOD’s=WoV shaking feat which is still above the 2 GOD feat

Also that is not a claim. The WoV was not said to be shaking at all, therefore it is assumed to not be without supporting evidence.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

So because Goku is in base he has no ki? That's just not the case.

Straw man. Goku's ki is just no where near potent enough to do anything at all to the WoV. The moment jiren starts acting is when the WoV shakes. And when Goku goes UIS, the WoV resumes shaking again. There were so many fighters more powerful than base Goku in that tournament but they weren't shaking the WoV either.

 

[Sus]

Saying it didn't happen is a positive claim that needs to be proven, as it asserts a truth value for something that we don't know.

I am not saying it happened, I am saying the argument is fundamentally invalid because it makes an assumption about something we don't know.

It didn't happen because there's literally nothing saying it did happen

Jiren and goku on the other hand, did have something saying that it was shaken



On a side note, upon reaching full power, jiren and goku were stated to be above gods as a whole, so

 

[Darksmash]

Even if they did shake the void that simply slightly shifts the scaling chain from 3 GOD’s<WoV shaking to 3 GOD’s=WoV shaking feat which is still above the 2 GOD feat

Also that is not a claim. The WoV was not said to be shaking at all, therefore it is assumed to not be without supporting evidence.

No it doesn't lol. You cannot make the assumption about the minimum threshold of WoV shaking being equal to destruction of 2 universes from that. Not can you make the assumption that they were going all out.

Assuming that it didn't happen is a claim. You are assigning a truth value to a vague event.

 

[Sus]

Even if they did shake the void that simply slightly shifts the scaling chain from 3 GOD’s<WoV shaking to 3 GOD’s=WoV shaking feat which is still above the 2 GOD feat

Also that is not a claim. The WoV was not said to be shaking at all, therefore it is assumed to not be without supporting evidence.

^^^^

 

[DivineAura44]

Saying it didn't happen is a positive claim that needs to be proven, as it asserts a truth value for something that we don't know.

I am not saying it happened, I am saying the argument is fundamentally invalid because it makes an assumption about something we don't know.

It doesn't make an assumption. Show doesn't talk about shaking = no shaking. By the logic you present Jiren shaking the realm ALSO would not be comment about since its already stated by Whis and Co that he's stronger.

 

[Yohata]

We already accepted jiren and goku to be > beerus

If someone disagrees, please make your own crt

Eh ?
If its like this
I won't countinue disagreeing since its pointless

 

[Sus]

Not can you make the assumption that they were going all out.

Yep, you don't read what we say

Just contact staff at this point...

 

[Aachintya31]

No it wasnt??? This isn't the manga.

You are. I haven't read the manga until moro arc.

 

[Darksmash]

It didn't happen because there's literally nothing saying it did happen

Sorry that's not how logic theory works. Saying it didn't happen is assigning a truth value of 0 to the event, compared to the value "X" where nothing is said about it at all.

On a side note, upon reaching full power, jiren and goku were stated to be above gods as a whole, so

That's a different thing and IDC if that is used for the upgrade. I am only referring to OP's arguments.

 

[Darksmash]

Yep, you don't read what we say

How about you actually respond instead of circlejerking imaginary arguments?

 

[Sus]

Sorry that's not how logic theory works. Saying it didn't happen is assigning a truth value of 0 to the event, compared to the value "X" where nothing is said about it at all.

Dude, what? Nothing ever says it was shaken, thus it wasn't, then saying krillin didn't shake it either is also a claim??

 

[Darksmash]

Dude, what? Nothing ever says it was shaken, thus it wasn't, then saying krillin didn't shake it either is also a claim??

Yes it is a claim.

 

[Sus]

How about you actually respond instead of circlejerking imaginary arguments?

We already explained why gods did go all out many times
1- they wanted to impress zeno
2- they wanted to test the durability of the stage
3- they were stated to have gone too far

 

[Aachintya31]

Neutral at this moment with this CRT just 3 questions.
1.The shaking of void statement came from Android 18 which isn't reliable.
2.Is it ok to upscale cosmology from character fights ? For ex: SSB gogeta and FP broly fighting should make U7 2C.This would lead to a endless chain and finally characters would be endless in 2B.
3.We know the current scale doesn't accept characters like Frieza and Hit to be Low 2-C
But now since a very very very suppressed jiren is 2C . Would they also become 2C ?

Can anybody dare to address this?
Also you all are well versed with fallacies.

 

[Sus]

Yes it is a claim.

... then whats the point of arguing about anything

 

[DivineAura44]

Straw man. Goku's ki is just no where near potent enough to do anything at all to the WoV. The moment jiren starts acting is when the WoV shakes. And when Goku goes UIS, the WoV resumes shaking again. There were so many fighters more powerful than base Goku in that tournament but they weren't shaking the WoV either.

Actual strawman. For Jiren alone to shake the void this would mean nobody else's ki was contributing. If any contestant, hell if even a roach(there isn't any just making a point) had ki he'd technically be contributing. Therefore the feat would still technically be Goku + Jiren's Ki = 3 God's. It'd actually be more because more contestants were still in the ring.

 

[Sus]

Can anybody dare to address this? https://media.tenor.com/1HnbW0C8O_0AAAAM/mr-rogers-nightmare.gif

Also you all are well versed with fallacies.

Im not sure how the wiki treats stuff like this, i recommend waiting for eithe the OP or some staff

 

[Maitreya12]

No it doesn't lol.

Yes it does because 2 GOD’s fighting = 2C feat, therefore 3 GOD’s fighting > 2C feat. That’s how math works.

You cannot make the assumption about the minimum threshold of WoV shaking being equal to destruction of 2 universes from that.

And 3 GOD’s fighting is below or equal to the threshold of WoV shaking since they fought in the WoV.

Not can you make the assumption that they were going all out.

And yes you can for going all out considering there is supporting evidence of the notion that they were not holding back. And even without going all out having 3 GOD’s fighting still is equal to or above the threshold of 2 GOD’s fighting.

Assuming that it didn't happen is a claim. You are assigning a truth value to a vague event.

If there is no evidence that it happened, it is presumed it didn’t happen. That’s simply how logical basis’ are made

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I can’t believe 2 more pages were created arguing over whether or not the Gods were holding back. We went over this on the first page already.
And why are some of you bringing up AOE? It’s been established twice that Gods aren’t allowed to fight because of the destruction of two universes. If they were able to use Ki control against each other then I’d make no sense.

 

[Darksmash]

We already explained why gods did go all out many times
1- they wanted to impress zeno
2- they wanted to test the durability of the stage
3- they were stated to have gone too far

And I already responded to all those arguments which you didn't counter. You just keep circlejerking the same thing.

... then whats the point of arguing about anything

Because there's a neat little thing called evidence. You can prove that things happened. You can prove they didn't happen. But don't make assumptions when the show didn't say anything.

Obviously we can make extremely basic assumptions like Krillin can't shake the void, but for the GoDs it's a different story as this argument is being used to upgrade the characters significantly which would require more evidence than simple assumptions.

 

[Aachintya31]

Im not sure how the wiki treats stuff like this, i recommend waiting for eithe the OP or some staff

The wiki has been very ****** regarding taking from characters.
Anyways Oki.

 

[Sus]

I can’t believe 2 more pages were created arguing over whether or not the Gods were holding back. We went over this on the first page already.
And why are some of you bringing up AOE? It’s been established twice that Gods aren’t allowed to fight because of the destruction of two universes. If they were able to use Ki control against each other then I’d make no sense.

SEE
They don't get it for some reason

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

And I already responded to all those arguments which you didn't counter.

Show them. And I’ll respond when I can.

 

[Maitreya12]

I think that message actually addresses all the arguments in opposition to it.

 

[DivineAura44]

You are. I haven't read the manga until moro arc.

I'm confused how this proves anything. Whis is saying Belmod > Beerus. Beerus is saying I've never really lost to him. Which doesn't matter because ki sensing is a thing. We also know Whis has seen Beerus's full power.