Dragon Ball Super - Jiren and Co. Upgrade via Void Scaling

[Sus]

And I already responded to all those arguments which you didn't counter. You just keep circlejerking the same thing.

Because there's a neat little thing called evidence. You can prove that things happened. You can prove they didn't happen. But don't make assumptions when the show didn't say anything.

Obviously we can make extremely basic assumptions like Krillin can't shake the void, but for the GoDs it's a different story as this argument is being used to upgrade the characters significantly which would require more evidence than simple assumptions.

Most of the "counters" were just "that doesn't mean they were going full power" so please say your argument again

And, no, we always assume a thing didn't happen when its never shown to happen, i don't know where did u get that from

 

[Aachintya31]

I'm confused how this proves anything. Whis is saying Belmod > Beerus. Beerus is saying I've never really lost to him. Which doesn't matter because ki sensing is a thing. We also know Whis has seen Beerus's full power.

Naah he said it was an arm wrestling match. Anyways this doesn't prove anything left on right so let it be.

 

[DivineAura44]

And I already responded to all those arguments which you didn't counter. You just keep circlejerking the same thing.

Because there's a neat little thing called evidence. You can prove that things happened. You can prove they didn't happen. But don't make assumptions when the show didn't say anything.

Obviously we can make extremely basic assumptions like Krillin can't shake the void, but for the GoDs it's a different story as this argument is being used to upgrade the characters significantly which would require more evidence than simple assumptions.

I've already explained why your logic makes little sense. Because it'd apply to Jiren as well.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

My point was that Jiren > Beerus but I guess you are right that we technically don't have prove of Beerus = 2nd strongest God. However I posted another scan.

Yeah I saw that scan. Btw in DB we have crazy Ki control. I'm surprised we now assume Gods are weaker becouse they "seemingly" went full out, yet they couldn't shake the Wov while Goku could.

No control plays a huge role in DB

 

[DivineAura44]

Naah he said it was an arm wrestling match. Anyways this doesn't prove anything left on right so let it be.

Yes it does??? Beerus cannot talk for Whis.

 

[Sus]

Why is beerus being weaker than belmod is relevant? They're completely unrelated to the crt

 

[Darksmash]

Yes it does because 2 GOD’s fighting = 2C feat, therefore 3 GOD’s fighting > 2C feat. That’s how math works.

2 GoDs fighting doesn't always= a 2C feat jfc. Otherwise any time Beerus moved a finger it should have obliterated the universe.

And 3 GOD’s fighting is below or equal to the threshold of WoV shaking since they fought in the WoV.

It can also be above that threshold, so it doesn't prove anything.

And yes you can for going all out considering there is supporting evidence of the notion that they were not holding back. And even without going all out having 3 GOD’s fighting still is equal to or above the threshold of 2 GOD’s fighting.

A bunch of non sequiturs are not evidence. Same for the latter statement.

If there is no evidence that it happened, it is presumed it didn’t happen. That’s simply how logical basis’ are made

That can change depending on context. The assumption that makes more sense is what should be preferred.

And why are some of you bringing up AOE? It’s been established twice that Gods aren’t allowed to fight because of the destruction of two universes. If they were able to use Ki control against each other then I’d make no sense.

It's never stated that they are unable to use ki control against each other. Beerus has already fought other people before and it did not destroy the universe. So we know that GoDs are capable of participating in fights without destroying the universe. Beerus and Champa simply had a beef so they were likely to go all out.


Anyway, I will check this thread tomorrow as I have to go now.

 

[Aachintya31]

Yeah I saw that scan. Btw in DB we have crazy Ki control. I'm surprised we now assume Gods are weaker becouse they "seemingly" went full out, yet they couldn't shake the Wov while Goku could.

No control plays a huge role in DB

Bruh GoDs don't have ki control. Beerus sneeze is a big example.

 

[DivineAura44]

2 GoDs fighting doesn't always= a 2C feat jfc. Otherwise any time Beerus moved a finger it should have obliterated the universe.


It can also be above that threshold, so it doesn't prove anything.


A bunch of non sequiturs are not evidence. Same for the latter statement.

That can change depending on context. The assumption that makes more sense is what should be preferred.

It's never stated that they are unable to use ki control against each other. Beerus has already fought other people before and it did not destroy the universe. So we know that GoDs are capable of participating in fights without destroying the universe. Beerus and Champa simply had a beef so they were likely to go all out.


Anyway, I will check this thread tomorrow as I have to go now.

WHY WOULD HE USE KI CONTROL IF HE'S TESTING THE DURABILITY OF SOMETHING???

 

[Aachintya31]

Why is beerus being weaker than belmod is relevant? They're completely unrelated to the crt

No this is relevant. If beerus is weaker than belmod then beerus would remain At least Low 2-C else he would also become 2-C

 

[DivineAura44]

Bruh GoDs don't have ki control. Beerus sneeze is a big example.

Beerus gotta be planet level than because when he and Goku fought that mf ain't even destroy a star. BEERUS DOWNGRADE! BEERUS DOWNGRADE!

 

[Sus]

WHY WOULD HE USE KI CONTROL IF HE'S TESTING THE DURABILITY OF SOMETHING???

^^^

basic common sense, if you want to test the durability of something, you have to try to destroy it

They did and failed, sooo

 

[Aachintya31]

Beerus gotta be planet level than because when he and Goku fought that mf ain't even destroy a star. BEERUS DOWNGRADE! BEERUS DOWNGRADE!

Lmao. No

 

[Sus]

No this is relevant. If beerus is weaker than belmod then beerus would remain At least Low 2-C else he would also become 2-C

Pretty sure we scale beerus to ss1 broly and gogeta who will be 2c

 

[DivineAura44]

Lmao. No

Excellent counter. I've lost.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Beerus and Champa simply had a beef so they were likely to go all out.

If you're going to be so insistent on this idea of the three GoDs not going all out or at least being casual, then you could at least take the time to read the arguments that were already provided in regards to it.

The fight sequence definitely seemed more than a simple spar; we see unique attacks being sent out left and right, and definitely not just basic Ki Blasts, these are actual techniques that we see thrown out. One of the Supreme Kais was also worried that they were taking it a little too far.

Does the dialogue at first suggest otherwise? Yes, but when we see genuine concern in one of the Supreme Kais, and the fact that the Grand Priest had to shield himself from the combined attack of the three Gods, it probably means that it was an actual fight rather than a spar.

"Let us reaffirm our superiority over all of the participating universes" Makes no sense why they'd hold back if this was said. Geene doesn’t even join because it's heavily implied he'd beat the three of them, which wouldn’t be relevant if they were just sparring. (See note at the bottom). They even ask if Zeno is satisfied. Why would they risk dissatisfying Zeno by holding back?

This is actually an extremely good point, because if you go back to Goku vs Toppo (a battle before even the preliminaries began), the two were more than ready to go 100% (which Goku explicitly saying such, going into Kaioken, and Toppo raising his aura).

The Zeno-oh’s were visibly upset by the fight being stopped, which means they take no issue in watching full all out brawls by characters that were weaker than GoD’s.

 

[Aachintya31]

^^^

basic common sense, if you want to test the durability of something, you have to try to destroy it

They did and failed, sooo

I want to say both the current agreeing and disagreeing are using wacky arguments.
This first page was best indeed

I want to clear this ,Durability of the ring has nothing to do with the CRT. This was already made clear that 3 GoDs are weaker than those who later showed similar feats.

 

[Aachintya31]

Excellent counter. I've lost.

What do you want to prove by that scene of beerus and whis?
You cherry picked and said Beerus is weaker than belmod but it was just an arm wrestling match. You can only argue lifting strength by that thing tbh.

 

[DivineAura44]

Why is beerus being weaker than belmod is relevant? They're completely unrelated to the crt

Oh I was proving Darksmashs point wrong. They stated the gods were so strong the fact that the void was shaking didn't need to be stated. I was proving Jiren > GoDs so the argument made little sense.

 

[Aachintya31]

Pretty sure we scale beerus to ss1 broly and gogeta who will be 2c

That will be changed I guess. Goku said broly is stronger than beerus so...

 

[DivineAura44]

What do you want to prove by that scene of beerus and whis?
You cherry picked and said Beerus is weaker than belmod but it was just an arm wrestling match. You can only argue lifting strength by that thing tbh.

Only Beerus says it was because of the arm wrestling match. Not Whis.

 

[SirAlex09]

Disagree. While the points are indeed good and hard to debunk, the destructive scale is inconsistent in DBS even when beserk characters like Broly and Cell Max let completely loose which is why I am against "destructive scaling".

 

[Aachintya31]

Only Beerus says it was because of the arm wrestling match. Not Whis.

Ok so we need figure out who lies. This is a moot point I guess.

 

[Maitreya12]

2 GoDs fighting doesn't always= a 2C feat jfc. Otherwise any time Beerus moved a finger it should have obliterated the universe.

There is a literal rule that 2 GOD’s cannot fight because it results in the destruction of 2 universes. Therefore the baseline becomes 2 GOD’s = 2C feat. It is an established baseline within the series itself.

It can also be above that threshold, so it doesn't prove anything.

No since to suggest that anything below 3 GOD’s fighting results in WoV shaking, such as 2 or below GOD’s, is a positive claim on your part which would require evidence to substantiate. The baseline has also been established here which is ≤, nothing more.

A bunch of non sequiturs are not evidence. Same for the latter statement.

Explain how those claims did not logically follow to the previous one because simply saying a fallacy doesn’t not mean my argument has committed one. You actually have to demonstrate it.

That can change depending on context. The assumption that makes more sense is what should be preferred.

“What makes more sense” can also be highly debated about here forever, however, we go by the simplest answers and presumptions. So if there is no statement it happened, therefore we assume it didn’t happen. And you presuming it did happen can also be dismissed without evidence.

Anyway, I will check this thread tomorrow as I have to go now.

Might be over if ya do

Eh maybe, either way see ya dude.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

2 GoDs fighting doesn't always= a 2C feat jfc. Otherwise any time Beerus moved a finger it should have obliterated the universe.

There were only two instances where Beerus fought another God and both of those instances started destroying the universes.

It can also be above that threshold, so it doesn't prove anything.

This is a non argument. All you’re doing is saying “well it could be this, that and the third” without any evidence.

A bunch of non sequiturs are not evidence. Same for the latter statement.

Considering Beerus and Champa started destroying the universes by ******* shouting or just standing there, I highly doubt it matters if they’re holding back or not.

That can change depending on context. The assumption that makes more sense is what should be preferred.
It's never stated that they are unable to use ki control against each other. Beerus has already fought other people before and it did not destroy the universe. So we know that GoDs are capable of participating in fights without destroying the universe. Beerus and Champa simply had a beef so they were likely to go all out.
Anyway, I will check this thread tomorrow as I have to go now.

It’s only when Gods specifically fight each other not other people. It’s stated and shown twice. And they specifically say that’s it’s taboo for Gods not to fight one another. Not fight a random person. You’re making arguments and you don’t even know the basis behind everything???

 

[DivineAura44]

Ok so we need figure out who lies. This is a moot point I guess.

Im not saying Beerus lied. It might be true that he only lost in an arm wrestling match. However this proves nothing as Whis could have gotten the read on his power due to ki sensing.

 

[Aachintya31]

Im not saying Beerus lied. It might be true that he only lost in an arm wrestling match. However this proves nothing as Whis could have gotten the read on his power due to ki sensing.

Headcanon.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Actual strawman. For Jiren alone to shake the void this would mean nobody else's ki was contributing. If any contestant, hell if even a roach(there isn't any just making a point) had ki he'd technically be contributing. Therefore the feat would still technically be Goku + Jiren's Ki = 3 God's. It'd actually be more because more contestants were still in the ring.

Just simply existing in the WoV is not going to shake it even if you could, just look at all the GoDs and angels on the stands. That only happens when someone is actively flaring their ki and not in a relaxed state. At that moment when jiren started acting, Goku had powered down into base and watched jiren and everyone else stopped fighting to observe his energy. Basically at that moment nobody was using their ki along with the fact that the energy jiren was releasing at that moment trivialized every single other person on the stage.

 

[Aachintya31]

This is such a neat upgrade. This shouldnt be rejected by things like
"Ohh I don't like destructive scaling
This is against site standards"

 

[DivineAura44]

Headcanon.

No its not??? You are saying one thing and and saying another that doesn't contradict yours. It's called an equal interpretation and unless you have solid proof against my claim, you are making headcanon.

 

[DivineAura44]

Just simply existing in the WoV is not going to shake it even if you could, just look at all the GoDs and angels on the stands. That only happens when someone is actively flaring their ki and not in a relaxed state. At that moment when jiren started acting, Goku had powered down into base and watched jiren and everyone else stopped fighting to observe his energy. Basically at that moment nobody was using their ki along with the fact that the energy jiren was releasing at that moment trivialized every single other person on the stage.

Wrong. As you've stated Goku also shook the void with UI. However the humans state the power is serene and calm.

 

[SirAlex09]

This is such a neat upgrade. This shouldnt be rejected by things like
"Ohh I don't like destructive scaling
This is against site standards"

This Wiki rejects lifting strength upgrades and multipliers for exactly the same reason..it's called consistency my friend

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Can you guys argue about the arm wrestling trivialities somewhere else please?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Agree: @Maitreya @The_real_cal_howard @LordTracer @XSOULOFCINDERX @Reiner @Zamasu_Chan @Fastestthingalive50 @Eseseso @luis3333 @ShakeResounding @DarkDragonMedeus Deleted Username @Sus @Lormac_CC @ObberGobb @Spinoirr @GodlyCharmander @BOEGVELD @Quantu @Lord_Farquaad69420 @FluffyCreatureZ @Apex_Predator_GX

Disagree: @ZillertheBucko @Purgy @AguilaR202 @God900 @Darksmash

Neutral: @KLOL506 @thetechmaster36 @Nullflowerblush @HammerStrikes219 @Rikimarox2 @DivineAura44 @Zencha9

Ok this is all who I have so far.

Let me know if these are your correct positions or if I’m missing anyone

I disagree with same reasoning as God900

 

[Aachintya31]

No its not??? You are saying one thing and and saying another that doesn't contradict yours. It's called an equal interpretation and unless you have solid proof against my claim, you are making headcanon.

You saying whis states while laughing "belmod is stronger than beerus" with beerus rejecting the notion that it was a arm wrestling match. We don't know who was lying. But then you say whis must have had a reading on his ki. This is headcanon

 

[thetechmaster36]

As you've stated Goku also shook the void with UI.

He was literally activating UI Sign in the scene where he shook the World of Void my guy. He is exerting his Ki. Plain and simple.

Your arguments are literally meaningless when all you're doing is pulling out headcanon left and right

 

[Aachintya31]

Can you guys argue about the arm wrestling trivialities somewhere else please?

Ok. apologies. I already said it was unrelated

 

[ZillertheBucko]

This is such a neat upgrade. This shouldnt be rejected by things like
"Ohh I don't like destructive scaling
This is against site standards"

Destructive capacity scaling like this is just invalid unless the feat is actually 2-C
this is the stupidest thing you could have said. At least come up with an argument than say “When people prove me wrong it’s so unfair and I should be right! We shouldn’t reject invalid claims with valid arguments guys.”

This is how not to argue for agreeing with the crt

 

[DivineAura44]

He was literally activating UI Sign in the scene where he shook the World of Void my guy. He is exerting his Ki. Plain and simple.

Your arguments are literally meaningless when all you're doing is pulling out headcanon left and right.

I'm confused on how exactly this attacked my argument.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I've read over every post in this thread and I haven't found anything substantial enough to disprove the logic. The bulk of the arguments against are over whether or not the GoDs were fighting seriously and there are multiple provided statements indicating that they were and the statement for Beerus and Champa destroying multiple universes by fighting was a generic statement for GoDs, not them specifically. So I'm going to go ahead and toss in a agree.