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Dragon Ball Super - Jiren and Co. Upgrade via Void Scaling

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ZillertheBucko said:
Destructive capacity scaling like this is just invalid unless the feat is actually 2-C
this is the stupidest thing you could have said. At least come up with an argument than say “When people prove me wrong it’s so unfair and I should be right! We shouldn’t reject invalid claims with valid arguments guys.”

This is how not to argue for agreeing with the crt
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I am neutral. My point wasn't addressed But nevermind
 
 
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CryoTheMayo said:
I've read over every post in this thread and I haven't found anything substantial enough to disprove the logic. The bulk of the arguments against are over whether or not the GoDs were fighting seriously and there are multiple provided statements indicating that they were and the statement for Beerus and Champa destroying multiple universes by fighting was a generic statement for GoDs, not them specifically. So I'm going to go ahead and toss in a agree.
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It has nothing to do with if they’re fighting seriously. It’s about the fact that consistently, across the entirety of the franchise, the AP has essentially NEVER corresponded to the destructive capacity.

This is the problem with dragon ball threads getting buried with 5 pages within like an hour, all the important arguments get buried
idk if this or staff only threads are worse
 
Maitreya said:
The current vote count:


Agree: @Maitreya @The_real_cal_howard@LordTracer @XSOULOFCINDERX @Reiner@Zamasu_Chan @Fastestthingalive50 @Eseseso@luis3333 @ShakeResounding@DarkDragonMedeus @DarlingAurora @Sus@Lormac_CC @ObberGobb @Spinoirr@GodlyCharmander @BOEGVELD @Quantu@Lord_Farquaad69420 @FluffyCreatureZ@Apex_Predator_GX @CryoTheMayo

Disagree: @ZillertheBucko @Purgy @AguilaR202@God900 @Darksmash @Dread @Yohata@SirAlex09

Neutral: @KLOL506 @thetechmaster36@Nullflowerblush @HammerStrikes219@Rikimarox2 @DivineAura44 @Zencha9@Aachintya31

Ok this is all who I have so far.

Let me know if these are your correct positions or if I’m missing anyone
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Put me as leaning disagree.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
It has nothing to do with if they’re fighting seriously. It’s about the fact that consistently, across the entirety of the franchise, the AP has essentially NEVER corresponded to the destructive capacity.

This is the problem with dragon ball threads getting buried with 5 pages within like an hour, all the important arguments get buried
idk if this or staff only threads are worse
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Your logic is that they didn't shake the World of Void because they were limiting their destructive capacity. However, the entire point of their fight was to test the durability of the arena. In other words, they actively needed to test their destructive capacity as fighters. And it is stated that they went 'too far' and that they were trying to impress Zeno. So, no. I don't think your argument stands enough for me to disagree with the upgrade.

Please illustrate any evidence that the Destroyers were actively restraining from damaging the WoV when the entire point of it was a test of durability for the tournament, that it is stated they went too far and that they were trying to impress Zeno.
 
Darksmash said:
Calling everything false equivalence doesn't solve anything. The point is that GoDs could have easily restricted their destruction to the stage itself without affecting the void. Checking the void wasn't their job so they didn't do it
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Gods can't limit their level of destruction against eachother like that... When they fight even casually it's enough to destroy both universes. The main point of the tournament of power being held in the WOV was to make sure the fighters can fight without endangering the universes. The 3 Gods being able to fight (note: it wasn't as casual as when Beerus and champa were first shown to fight yet they were risking destroying both universes) caused no apparent or significant effect to the WOV which means it's more durable that U6&U7 that would get destroyed by Beerus and champa just having a scuffle
 
Darksmash said:
Where is it explained they aren't suppressed? Also not being suppressed doesn't mean anything. DB characters can go all out and still exercise Ki control
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Even if they were suppressed, the notion still stands. Even with ki control it's been consistently shown that if 2 gods of destructions fight it will lead to the destruction of 2 universes. The WOV withstanding the might of 3 gods of destruction without shaking is proof enough.
 
God900 said:
The problem is that in that exhibition, we don't know if Gods used all of their power.
Just an statement of them "going too far" is pretty vague
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They don't need to use full power... Gods just throwing hands is enough to nuke 2 universes
 
Ok so we have about 3 staff agreements along with a whole bunch of others and relatively minimal disagreements with a sizable neutral vote.

I believe this can be officially closed now yes.
 
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DivineAura44 said:
Wrong. As you've stated Goku also shook the void with UI. However the humans state the power is serene and calm.
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False. His power was explosive when he was transforming. I don't know when that statement was made but UIS gives off a calm feeling because that form requires a clear and controlled slash calm mind. However that does not mean that the power is not great and explosive. It can be powerful but calm.
As you can see in the transformation sequence, elder kai states that the WoV is being shaken which is followed by a massive explosion of energy and powerful wind.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
Characters still don’t use their full destructive power like, almost ever. The world of void isn’t a 2-C structure to begin with, are you saying that if they used their full DC they wouldn’t be able to shake it? This is just objectively impossible logic.
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The logic presented by the OP is clear.
1. Two Gods of destruction are prohibited by fighting lest two universes be destroyed. This was shown with just Beerus and champa throwing hands and having a little scuffle at the baseball game. At this point it's already established 2 gods fighting= 2 universes gets destroyed.
2. This brings the second point. If WOV wasn't as durable as U6&U7 it would've been instantly destroyed by just 2 gods fighting much less 3. The seriousness of which they fought is irrelevant, it's already been show that Beerus and champa throwing hands would be destroyed 2 universes. However the fight of the 3 gods had no significant or apparent effect on the WOV. This just means WOV>>> U6&U7 which also means WOV= 2-C.
3. The WOV being a void is irrelevant. It's something the characters can exist in, GP can construct something inside which just means it's something that exists and can be manipulated. Moreover the main point of the fight being held there was the fact that it's a void so there's nothing to destroy. "it's a void, it's nothing so Goku shook nothing, it doesn't scale" also irrelevant, the WOV is obviously a construct, and Goku shook that construct and that's a viable feat.

This is what the OP meant and I agree, these characters scale
 
I feel like I should call back to the part where Dyspo moved so fast that Champa was so shocked he questioned Vados if even she could see it but later on Dyspo states Base Freeza can keep up with him and even when Dyspo uses his maximum speed (a 'thousands of times' increase) Golden Freeza could still react to all of his blows barring the initial one. This is when Golden Freeza was equal to SSB Goku before the ToP and when Dyspo was able to dodge unexpected full power bursts by SSB Goku. You could chalk that up to 'bad writing' but given Goku states that 'we've all gone well beyond our limits already' with the entire theme of the arc being breaking one's own limits, it's safe to say Freeza grew stronger over the tournament himself.

Essentially, what I'm getting at is...Freeza surpasses Dyspo's speed when Champa struggles to even perceive it and can even react to blows 'thousands of times faster' than that. Does that mean 2-C Dyspo? No. But what I'm getting at is that Freeza has no special speed boosting technique. He's relative to Dyspo in speed with his raw stats. Raw stats that Champa struggles to keep up with.

So given stats generally all increase with power increases and Freeza has no special speed-based technique, that means his power alone was keeping up with Dyspo's speed. That scales him (and anyone else who is around or above him) to being too fast for a GoD like Champa to see easily.

Don't let that derail this thread, but wouldn't this add to the consistency of characters scaling to and above GoDs? Who are 'half 2-C'?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I feel like I should call back to the part where Dyspo moved so fast that Champa was so shocked he questioned Vados if even she could see it but later on Dyspo states Base Freeza can keep up with him and even when Dyspo uses his maximum speed (a 'thousands of times' increase) Golden Freeza could still react to all of his blows barring the initial one. This is when Golden Freeza was equal to SSB Goku before the ToP and when Dyspo was able to dodge unexpected full power bursts by SSB Goku. You could chalk that up to 'bad writing' but given Goku states that 'we've all gone well beyond our limits already' with the entire theme of the arc being breaking one's own limits, it's safe to say Freeza grew stronger over the tournament himself.

Essentially, what I'm getting at is...Freeza surpasses Dyspo's speed when Champa struggles to even perceive it and can even react to blows 'thousands of times faster' than that. Does that mean 2-C Dyspo? No. But what I'm getting at is that Freeza has no special speed boosting technique. He's relative to Dyspo in speed with his raw stats. Raw stats that Champa struggles to keep up with.

So given stats generally all increase with power increases and Freeza has no special speed-based technique, that means his power alone was keeping up with Dyspo's speed. That scales him (and anyone else who is around or above him) to being too fast for a GoD like Champa to see easily.

Don't let that derail this thread, but wouldn't this add to the consistency of characters scaling to and above GoDs? Who are 'half 2-C'?
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We’re not opening that can of worms.
 
The universe is like 99% void, btw
And you can still scale to it without destroying matter
 
ZillertheBucko said:
Even if it did have dura, that wouldn’t change the ability to shake it since nobody actually “damaged” the world of void. Even if a character is tier 0, if they only weight 70 pounds you can still lift or shake them if they’re not resisting, which a void (inanimate object (not even an object, it’s a void)) does not do.
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How can you be so desperate to debunk you stop making sense? The main point is not about the WOV getting damaged. It's that 3 gods fought in it and had no apparent effect on WOV, when 2 gods fighting would nuke 2 universal constructs. WOV withstanding their fight = 2-C. Goku and jiren get their 2-C scaling for affecting the WOV more than the 3 gods did when they fought.
 
Sus said:
Why?
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Atleast combined power of 2 GoDs is 2-C which wasn't sufficient to shake the void
ToP characters scale above this combined feat by scaling to shaking the void feat. Go to the first page of this thread and you'll get it.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
False. His power was explosive when he was transforming. I don't know when that statement was made but UIS gives off a calm feeling because that form requires a clear and controlled slash calm mind. However that does not mean that the power is not great and explosive. It can be powerful but calm.
As you can see in the transformation sequence, elder kai states that the WoV is being shaken which is followed by a massive explosion of energy and powerful wind.
Click to expand...
The ki itself is not powerful. You can't attack people with the ki itself instead by transforming it into an attack. The amount of ki is what shook the void.
 
Aachintya31 said:
Atleast combined power of 2 GoDs is 2-C which wasn't sufficient to shake the void
ToP characters scale above this combined feat by scaling to shaking the void feat. Go to the first page of this thread and you'll get it.
Click to expand...
I know that, i meant why doesn't beerus scale above goku and vegeta since goku implied that they're not stronger tha him individually (without mui)
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
We’re not opening that can of worms.
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Sure, but it should be kept in mind. Given it can add to the consistency of scaling to and above GoD-level powers. Along with all of the statements with Jiren, Goku, the WoV scaling and so on. I'd also argue that Geene's response to the other three GoDs fighting adds to the disparity in power levels between them existing, when Vados/Whis generically refer to 'two Gods of Destruction' fighting resulting in multiple universes being destroyed.
 
DivineAura44 said:
The ki itself is not powerful. You can't attack people with the ki itself instead by transforming it into an attack. The amount of ki is what shook the void.
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You two are still arguing about whether it was shaken or not? Or am i misunderstanding?
 
Sus said:
You two are still arguing about whether it was shaken or not? Or am i misunderstanding?
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No. Who caused the shaking. I'm arguing that the combination of multiple people's ki caused it therefore the feat would still be the same placeholder feat we already had.
Fluffy is arguing that it was strictly Jiren and strictly Goku in their respective feats.
 
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