Dragon Ball Super: Grand Priest Conceptual Manipulation Removal

[CloverDragon03]

Hi, it's me. I felt I should make this at some point, as I'd developed some grievances with this ability toward the end of the thread that it was accepted in, but I didn't want to be the guy spontaneously bringing up problems in a concluded thread. So, here's my response thread on the Grand Priest's Conceptual Manipulation. The thread in which this was accepted can be found here.

The overall premise is that the Grand Priest added the concept of time to the World of Void, which is once stated to be devoid of time and space, and is stated to lack the concepts of time and space in a guide released in Brazil and Spain. This guide was argued to be perfectly fine to use too, as it gives credit to Toei Animation and is given greater credibility through this website, which says the following (translated):

BIG BANG was born in 2008 in Santiago de Chile, dreaming of entertaining children, young people and adults, awakening their creative and social spirit. It is a creative and dynamic company, with a human, passionate team and a wealth of experience in its work. Recognized by licensees and prominent companies for being avant-garde in design and quality, focused on developing licenses through collectibles, albums, card games and promotional activities that are always back on trend and the simplest form of entertainment, in the territory of Chile and other countries in the region.

This all seems well and good, but I did find some problems with this, especially for a major ability like this. As such, I'd like to discuss them, and potentially remove this ability from the Grand Priest.

Problem 1: "Time and Space" vs. "The Concepts of Time and Space"
Despite being called "Problem 1," this is by far the lesser of the two problems with this addition. I wanted to save the bigger issue for last, so for now, I'll be starting with this. Obviously, time and space is a different beast compared to the concepts of time and space. As such, it's important to decide... Which one is being referred to, in the context of the World of Void? The thing is, I believe that simple "time and space" is being referred to, rather than their concepts, if we go by the priority of the canon material.

To begin with, the guide released in Brazil and Spain is much lower in terms of priority, given that it's a supplemental guide as opposed to the actual anime simply saying the World of Void lacks time and space, rather than their concepts. Not to mention, I'm not exactly sure what the above description of BIG BANG means for canonicity purposes.

But, even putting that aside...

Problem 2: Did the Grand Priest Actually Introduce a Concept of Time?
The short answer is: No, at least I don't think so.

Basically, the Grand Priest was agreed to have added the concept of time to a void with no concept of time. Even putting aside the aforementioned issue, though, I don't think this is the case. This scene demonstrates my point perfectly, so I'll cover the important parts about it here:

• The pillar drops, and only then does the Grand Priest make note of the time that has elapsed
• The Grand Priest raises his hand after declaring the tournament half over, and then the background changes - after he does the hand raise.

See the issue here? Rather than the Grand Priest introducing a concept of time, this scene indicates that the pillar was simply created to be some form of measuring it despite the void everyone's in. Not only that, but the tournament background doesn't seem to naturally change to reflect this. Rather, the Grand Priest manually causes this via the raise of his hand.

For a potent ability like this, I think the evidence in its favor is very shaky at best. It could be argued, but I don't think it's the most favorable interpretation myself. As such, I'd like to remove the Grand Priest's Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation.

And well... That's about it. So, as per usual, I now open the floor for y'all to discuss!

Agree: Maverick_Zero_X (possibly Space-Time Manipulation), Damage3245 (possibly Space-Time Manipulation), DarkDragonMedeus (leaning, not definitive), Deagonx (is okay with possibly Space-Time Manipulation if need be), Planck69 (fine with "possibly" too), GarrixianXD (possibly Space-Time Manipulation)
Disagree:
Neutral:

(Bolded names indicate evaluating staff)

 

[GarrixianXD]

Well… if it could be argued then wouldn’t a “possibly” rating be better than a direct removal?

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah this is pretty straightforward. Adding space and time to a space that lacks it is just spacetime manip. The phrase "lacking the concept of space" is applicable to any non-spatial realm, "lacking the concept of" its a common figure of speech. So common it has its entry in the Cambridge dictionary:

not have any concept/have no concept of something

1. to not understand about something: 2. to not understand about something:

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Planck69]

I think a Possibly is fine but I'm not opposed to removing it with this information.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the removal.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well… if it could be argued then wouldn’t a “possibly” rating be better than a direct removal?

Well, it being possible to be argued doesn't automatically make it viable. The odds for and against it need to be largely even, which I don't think is the case here. Rather, I think the odds for Concept Manip are pretty unfavorable here

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah this is pretty straightforward. Adding space and time to a space that lacks it is just spacetime manip. The phrase "lacking the concept of space" is applicable to any non-spatial realm, "lacking the concept of" its a common figure of speech. So common it has its entry in the Cambridge dictionary:

not have any concept/have no concept of something

1. to not understand about something: 2. to not understand about something:

dictionary.cambridge.org

That does help, yeah. Though at the same time, I think the second issue with this suggests that this might not be any ability at all (I mean, unless manually changing a background of a space is Spatial Manipulation of some kind? Probably is). What do you make of that?

 

[Deagonx]

What do you make of that?

Watching the video, it's far too vague to get anything like spacetime manip for the GP. So I'd agree.

 

[CloverDragon03]

(Also I imagine this'll have a sizable amount of input so for my own sanity, I'm only counting staff votes, sorry!)

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Am I allowed to comment here? Because I have some issues with the arguments presented here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's not a staff discussion thread, so feel free

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[GarrixianXD]

Anyways, I had doubts about the ability addition in the first place and was surprised to know it even passed to begin with.

Shoot to kill, I agree.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

To begin with, the guide released in Brazil and Spain is much lower in terms of priority, given that it's a supplemental guide as opposed to the actual anime simply saying the World of Void lacks time and space, rather than their concepts. Not to mention, I'm not exactly sure what the above description of BIG BANG means for canonicity purposes.

One the anime not name dropping the word concept is to be expected. Considering most writers don’t literally speak powerscaler, and said word was later named dropped in the guide book. Two I don’t see why location of the book is of importance. Considering it is a officially recognized and licensed piece of Dragon Ball material meaning it would have to be evaluated before hand. The only issue being hypothetically if there were major contradictions between the the source material and the guide books which there are none.

Basically, the Grand Priest was agreed to have added the concept of time to a void with no concept of time. Even putting aside the aforementioned issue, though, I don't think this is the case. This scene demonstrates my point perfectly, so I'll cover the important parts about it here:

• The pillar drops, and only then does the Grand Priest make note of the time that has elapsed
• The Grand Priest raises his hand after declaring the tournament half over, and then the background changes - after he does the hand raise.

See the issue here? Rather than the Grand Priest introducing a concept of time, this scene indicates that the pillar was simply created to be some form of measuring it despite the void everyone's in. Not only that, but the tournament background doesn't seem to naturally change to reflect this. Rather, the Grand Priest manually causes this via the raise of his hand.

This is where my main issue with the arguments presented because it’s blatantly wrong. The grand priest had to have added space and time to the null realm as we see hit can use his time based hax there. And Anilaza can also use his spacial abilities there. Which would be literally impossible if no time and space existed.

The pillar itself is simply a visual indicator of the time passing for the fighters and us the audience at home. We have no reason to believe the grand priest merely raising his hand had anything to do with it.

But with this being said I think a Possibly or a Likely is more warranted then an outright removal because it’s clear he did add space-time.

 

[Deagonx]

The only issue being hypothetically if there were major contradictions between the the source material and the guide books which there are none.

This is where my main issue with the arguments presented because it’s blatantly wrong. The grand priest had to have added space and time to the null realm as we see hit can use his time based hax there. And Anilaza can also use his spacial abilities there. Which would be literally impossible if no time and space existed.

So, let me make sure I understand.

The book, which claims there was no space or time, isn't contradicting the source material in which characters -- in this timeless and spaceless realm -- can use time and space based abilities?

That would appear to be a contradiction.

 

[Killerdrone123]

So, let me make sure I understand.

The book, which claims there was no space or time, isn't contradicting the source material in which characters -- in this timeless and spaceless realm -- can use time and space based abilities?

That would appear to be a contradiction.

I think you are misunderstanding his point he is arguing that g.p definitely added space and time in w.o.v cause if he didn't then hit won't be able to use his time based abilities there

 

[Deagonx]

I think you are misunderstanding his point he is arguing that g.p definitely added space and time in w.o.v cause if he didn't then hit won't be able to use his time based abilities there

That much was clear, yeah. However, if there's nothing specific actually showing him doing that it isn't really enough to add the ability. And in any case it wouldn't be concept manip.

 

[Cass5373]

And how would that scene from the anime affect the Daishinkan of Super's manga?

 

[Killerdrone123]

That much was clear, yeah. However, if there's nothing specific actually showing him doing that it isn't really enough to add the ability. And in any case it wouldn't be concept manip.

Yeah but a realm lacking space and time wouldn't suddenly have space and time automatically or magically obviously there was someone who added it and it is more than likely g.p since he manipulated the w.o.v for the ease of fighters

 

[CloverDragon03]

So, let me make sure I understand.

The book, which claims there was no space or time, isn't contradicting the source material in which characters -- in this timeless and spaceless realm -- can use time and space based abilities?

That would appear to be a contradiction.

In fairness, the anime itself also states that the World of Void lacks time and space. I think that's what he's getting at. Though, I think it's clear it's not Conceptual Manipulation, given that something having "no concept of space and time" can also just be synonymous with "not having space and time"

 

[ChoursDropoff]

In fairness, the anime itself also states that the World of Void lacks time and space. I think that's what he's getting at. Though, I think it's clear it's not Conceptual Manipulation, given that something having "no concept of space and time" can also just be synonymous with "not having space and time"

Even in that case since the concept angle can’t just be outright dismissed then a possibly would be warranted.

 

[Deagonx]

Even in that case since the concept angle can’t just be outright dismissed then a possibly would be warranted.

We require much stronger evidence for a "possibly." It doesn't literally mean "a possible interpretation of the information available"

 

[Killerdrone123]

Tbh there is no other interpretation for this it is very logical and makes sense that it was g.p who did it

 

[CloverDragon03]

Even in that case since the concept angle can’t just be outright dismissed then a possibly would be warranted.

A "possibly" rating is for something that has a strong amount of viability, not just anything that could potentially be argued if you tried hard enough, for instance.

Tbh there is no other interpretation for this it is very logical and makes sense that it was g.p who did it

Be that as it may, this wouldn't be Conceptual Manipulation for reasons Deagon has already said (namely that the guide's statement is just synonymous with saying "there's no space and time"). At best, it would be Space-Time Manipulation

 

[Cass5373]

I ask again, would this affect the manga version of Daishinkan or just his anime version?

 

[Killerdrone123]

I ask again, would this affect the manga version of Daishinkan or just his anime version?

Both

 

[CloverDragon03]

I ask again, would this affect the manga version of Daishinkan or just his anime version?

Both, as they both involve the Grand Priest "adding the concept of time" to the World of Void

 

[Cass5373]

I don't see how something that is clearly within the same sentence as "lacking such concepts" can not be sufficient evidence for at least the "possible" qualification. I think it should be demonstrated that the term "concept" is clearly excluded when referring to concept and there is nothing that denies such a fact in the evidence that has been given.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah this is pretty straightforward. Adding space and time to a space that lacks it is just spacetime manip. The phrase "lacking the concept of space" is applicable to any non-spatial realm, "lacking the concept of" its a common figure of speech. So common it has its entry in the Cambridge dictionary:

not have any concept/have no concept of something

1. to not understand about something: 2. to not understand about something:

dictionary.cambridge.org

See above

 

[Makishi222]

Hi, I'm just here to say that Daishinkan introduced the concept of time.

In chapter 97, Daishinkan explains all the rules and says the time limit is 100 taks. Then he says "The central pillar will descend as the time passes" (this shows that the time passes)

The link you showed, it don't deny anything. The background may have taken a while to change, or Daishinkan simply wanted to change the background cuz they are now at an important point in the tournament. Cuz, again, the central pillar descended as the time passes, and that is demonstrated in all TOP.

 

[Damage3245]

OP seems fine to me.

 

[Jaakor48]

Problem 1: "Time and Space" vs. "The Concepts of Time and Space"
Despite being called "Problem 1," this is by far the lesser of the two problems with this addition. I wanted to save the bigger issue for last, so for now, I'll be starting with this. Obviously, time and space is a different beast compared to the concepts of time and space. As such, it's important to decide... Which one is being referred to, in the context of the World of Void? The thing is, I believe that simple "time and space" is being referred to, rather than their concepts, if we go by the priority of the canon material.

To begin with, the guide released in Brazil and Spain is much lower in terms of priority, given that it's a supplemental guide as opposed to the actual anime simply saying the World of Void lacks time and space, rather than their concepts. Not to mention, I'm not exactly sure what the above description of BIG BANG means for canonicity purposes.

Yea this, seems like excessive scrutiny to say the least, it's an official horse licences by Toei, which serves to add supplementary information to the series. Time and space was stated to be lacking, and the guide , which was licenced, specified that the very concepts were missing too, trying to remove thr ability because the animation writers didn't go the power scaler route and add 'concept' seems wrong. The guide literary just added official supplementary material, if it doesn't go against what the anime said why bring it up?

But, even putting that aside...

Problem 2: Did the Grand Priest Actually Introduce a Concept of Time?
The short answer is: No, at least I don't think so.

Basically, the Grand Priest was agreed to have added the concept of time to a void with no concept of time. Even putting aside the aforementioned issue, though, I don't think this is the case. This scene demonstrates my point perfectly, so I'll cover the important parts about it here:

• The pillar drops, and only then does the Grand Priest make note of the time that has elapsed
• The Grand Priest raises his hand after declaring the tournament half over, and then the background changes - after he does the hand raise.

See the issue here? Rather than the Grand Priest introducing a concept of time, this scene indicates that the pillar was simply created to be some form of measuring it despite the void everyone's in.

The grand priest literally designed it to act that way, if anything, this further shows that all designs pertaining to time were of his making, that pillar didn't just appear out of nowhere

Not only that, but the tournament background doesn't seem to naturally change to reflect this. Rather, the Grand Priest manually causes this via the raise of his hand.

Changing the color of the WoV is why he has light manipulation, it was added here, that action has nothing to do with his CM2, and mind you, he never changed the colour in the manga..also the entire WoV not automatically changing doesn't mean the stage doesn't have space and time added, at all.

For a potent ability like this, I think the evidence in its favor is very shaky at best. It could be argued, but I don't think it's the most favorable interpretation myself. As such, I'd like to remove the Grand Priest's Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation.

I don't get it
We have literal statement stating that the void lacks space and time, and a further licensed guidebook statement specifying that the concepts are also missing

We know he has control over the area that the tournament takes place, stated both in the anime, manga and the guide with the manga going as fast as stating that he could remove the fighter's ability to resist the gravity created over the stage

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think all the arguments here have been very sound. But, the ones that really catch my attention are those involving Hit and Anilaza - who can skip through time and bend space through sheer power, respectively. Thus, they're able to utilize and affect time and space in a void seemingly devoid of them. That would be something in favor of this

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Disagree.

See the issue here? Rather than the Grand Priest introducing a concept of time, this scene indicates that the pillar was simply created to be some form of measuring it despite the void everyone's in.

This assessment doesn’t make sense. If time doesn’t exist in the void, then what are they measuring?

Your argument only makes sense if you are also going to claim the void actually does have space and time and the statements are false or contradicted.

“The void has no time but they just created a pillar to measure time” makes no sense respectfully.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is slowly revealing that this was a bad idea...

 

[Da3ggman]

This is slowly revealing that this was a bad idea...

Your first mistake was making a Dragon Ball thread.

 

[ScalingRandomVerse]

This is slowly revealing that this was a bad idea...

You already got 4 mods' agreement, so that doesn't really matter.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I believe I can still request my own thread's closure, though. If I end up disagreeing with my own thread

More importantly, it'd take another 36 hours before this could even be applied

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Disagree with the arguments presented

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Disagree.



This assessment doesn’t make sense. If time doesn’t exist in the void, then what are they measuring?

Your argument only makes sense if you are also going to claim the void actually does have space and time and the statements are false or contradicted.

“The void has no time but they just created a pillar to measure time” makes no sense respectfully.

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