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I dismissed your argument as a fallacy because it was a Golden Mean fallacy. Your counter-argument was you saying it was not a fallacy. I'm repeating it because so far this is a massively circular thread.
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Dragon Ball Super: Episode 131 Upgrades
- Thread starter KingPin0422
- Start date
- Status
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Yes he would have to be 2-C since the Dragon Balls are limited to the power of their creator.The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Unless Toriyama makes up some new rule or something.
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@Aeyu I'd like an explanation then. Based on what people explained me, you can't measure the difference in power in higher dimensions. It's impossible to know the difference between, for exemple, destroying a 4D Cube and a 4D Universe because there is no mathematical way of calculating "4D Energy".
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None of the other dragons are physically as powerful as their wish granting restoration feats. There is no reason to assume Super Shenron can throw multiple universe destroying punches unless he actually has a feat or statement suggesting such.
His rating is fine. This is like complaining that Marble Alien and Amitabha are 3-A via their size.
His rating is fine. This is like complaining that Marble Alien and Amitabha are 3-A via their size.
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@Kep
You ignored, and have done so again, literally every other point I made to counter your last stream of rebuttals. That was not the argument I was making in its entirety, and moreover I dismissed your "fallacy-calling" because it in itself is fallacious. My argument is not entirely based in "compromise," nor must it be necessitated that only 3-A and Low 2-C are viable options, as both ratings in and of themselves are arbitrary.
You ignored, and have done so again, literally every other point I made to counter your last stream of rebuttals. That was not the argument I was making in its entirety, and moreover I dismissed your "fallacy-calling" because it in itself is fallacious. My argument is not entirely based in "compromise," nor must it be necessitated that only 3-A and Low 2-C are viable options, as both ratings in and of themselves are arbitrary.
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Btw, may one of you guys change the name of Goku's silver form to "Mastered Ultra Instinct" so that it's corrected? Thx.
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"Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power". This not only makes them infinitetly stronger than 3D High 3-A's but also 2 dimensions apart from regular 3-A, this would mean they're 2 dimensions stronger than Hit if I'm not mistaken, which just isn't true.
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Just like you ignored my Anilaza rebuttal entirely by saying I ignored the Goku bit.
Sstop turning this thread into a shitstorm by blowing my posts out of proportion, please.
Sstop turning this thread into a shitstorm by blowing my posts out of proportion, please.
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@Aeyu Because they have absolutely no physical feats. Super Shenron's sheer size alone is actually a feat.
Burden of proof. You prove Super Shenron can throw a multiple universe destroying punch. I don't prove that he can't.
Burden of proof. You prove Super Shenron can throw a multiple universe destroying punch. I don't prove that he can't.
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Can someone add ressurection to the angels pages?
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I don't think that's for every scenario.Dziga said:
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@Kep
I did respond to that. I said that Anilaza's feats far more logically constitute being called outliers than one whose tier has been debated for months and constantly called PIS/outlier despite there literally being new evidence in this episode which might suggest the opposite.
@Ryu
He doesn't need to, because he has the raw energy output to back it up. Unlike Amitabha, this being possesses the ability to kill gods and resurrect entire bubble universes. Giving a rating based on size is frankly far less relevant and relies on assumption more than actual feats, since the dragon seems to be able to take any size it wishes.
I did respond to that. I said that Anilaza's feats far more logically constitute being called outliers than one whose tier has been debated for months and constantly called PIS/outlier despite there literally being new evidence in this episode which might suggest the opposite.
@Ryu
He doesn't need to, because he has the raw energy output to back it up. Unlike Amitabha, this being possesses the ability to kill gods and resurrect entire bubble universes. Giving a rating based on size is frankly far less relevant and relies on assumption more than actual feats, since the dragon seems to be able to take any size it wishes.
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I think it's more likely that a severely weakened Jiren is 3-A.Aeyu said:
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>Relies on assumption more than actual feats.
>Assumes that Super Shenron can throw a multiple universe destroying punch based on literally no feats or statements at all.
Super Shenron has shown universe restoration hax. He hasn't shown punching strength of such level. Therefore I don't support upgrading him.
>Assumes that Super Shenron can throw a multiple universe destroying punch based on literally no feats or statements at all.
Super Shenron has shown universe restoration hax. He hasn't shown punching strength of such level. Therefore I don't support upgrading him.
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@Ryukama
I'm sure someone could make a wish that Super Shenron throws a multi-universe level punch =P
I'm sure someone could make a wish that Super Shenron throws a multi-universe level punch =P
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>Implies that an arbitrary size taken to show scale once and never again is more relevant than actual power
>assumes that punches are needed and that they would even happen from a dragon with no arms
There's plenty of 2-C feats that don't involve any punches or splosions, this being a creation feat as those universes were erased from existence
A size he took one time should not be > an actual feat demonstrated from the depths of its power.
Also as funny as it sounds Meleenium makes sense. What's to say the dragon couldn't, having 2-C power? (other than the fact it has no hands)
>assumes that punches are needed and that they would even happen from a dragon with no arms
There's plenty of 2-C feats that don't involve any punches or splosions, this being a creation feat as those universes were erased from existence
A size he took one time should not be > an actual feat demonstrated from the depths of its power.
Also as funny as it sounds Meleenium makes sense. What's to say the dragon couldn't, having 2-C power? (other than the fact it has no hands)
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> 1. You're ignoring the bit about Goku, and yes I am in regard to Anilaza's feats being outliers.
Saying I ignored it is false. I addressed it and acknowledged that as an outlier. Him fighting the others isn't.
2. Just because he could have destroyed Freeza with the energy doesn't mean he's holding back energy. Again, ignoring Vegeta.
Vegeta isn't relevant. He was Low 2-C and got stomped by a stronger Low 2-C. 17 constantly loses to other 3-As, and gets destroyed by several Low 2-Cs to boot.
3. How does that not count for durability?
Toppo was massively ahead of him and was also explicitly suppressing himself in order to avoid killing 17, who is on the same level as Freeza was in this fight.
When he was "confirmed" to have been destroyed by the blast.
Actually because it was far above his other feats.
Saying I ignored it is false. I addressed it and acknowledged that as an outlier. Him fighting the others isn't.
2. Just because he could have destroyed Freeza with the energy doesn't mean he's holding back energy. Again, ignoring Vegeta.
Vegeta isn't relevant. He was Low 2-C and got stomped by a stronger Low 2-C. 17 constantly loses to other 3-As, and gets destroyed by several Low 2-Cs to boot.
3. How does that not count for durability?
Toppo was massively ahead of him and was also explicitly suppressing himself in order to avoid killing 17, who is on the same level as Freeza was in this fight.
When he was "confirmed" to have been destroyed by the blast.
Actually because it was far above his other feats.
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Don't blame me that his 3-B size is the only feat he's ever shown. Now I'm suddenly the bad guy for not wanting to apply ratings to people based on literally no evidence at all.
So are you now trying to assume someone with no arms can throw multiple universe destroying punches?
Except Super Shenron does have tiny little stick arms, wings he spread, a head he can headbutt with, a tail he can whip, etc. So he can throw strikes.
Yeah and Super Shenron's 2-C feat doesn't apply to physical striking strength. His actual 2-C feat is still being applied.
So are you now trying to assume someone with no arms can throw multiple universe destroying punches?
Except Super Shenron does have tiny little stick arms, wings he spread, a head he can headbutt with, a tail he can whip, etc. So he can throw strikes.
Yeah and Super Shenron's 2-C feat doesn't apply to physical striking strength. His actual 2-C feat is still being applied.
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Also, we never see Zeno throw 2-C punches, but we straight up give him 2-C rating, even though he does it through hax.
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@Kep 1. What I'm saying is that using that as concrete evidence against 17 and Freeza is disingenuous and points more to an outlier in Anilaza than anything (which I still don't agree is an outlier, but that's besides the point)
2. How is Vegeta not relevant when Toppo blitzed and knocked him around? Which 3-A did 17 lose to, again?
3. Again, not using Hakai to kill doesn't mean that he was heavily suppressing his energy, especially when he went all-out vs Vegeta with a massively powered-up Hakai.
4. This episode would at least provide evidence for a "Possibly" rating, with them being both described to have broken their limits.
2. How is Vegeta not relevant when Toppo blitzed and knocked him around? Which 3-A did 17 lose to, again?
3. Again, not using Hakai to kill doesn't mean that he was heavily suppressing his energy, especially when he went all-out vs Vegeta with a massively powered-up Hakai.
4. This episode would at least provide evidence for a "Possibly" rating, with them being both described to have broken their limits.
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Aren't most tier 2 and above feats done so via hax anyway?Ryukama said:
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@Ryu
I'm just saying we should remove the At least 3-B rating, that's all. I did provide evidence, in that the size isn't a feat like the level of power displayed by wish granting, which has consistently been shown to be on the level of whoever created the dragons (Like dragons not being able to grant wishes which involve affecting those more powerful than said master). There's literally no reason to assume the dragon couldn't tap into its inner reserves and use all that power to do whatever it wants to.
I'm just saying we should remove the At least 3-B rating, that's all. I did provide evidence, in that the size isn't a feat like the level of power displayed by wish granting, which has consistently been shown to be on the level of whoever created the dragons (Like dragons not being able to grant wishes which involve affecting those more powerful than said master). There's literally no reason to assume the dragon couldn't tap into its inner reserves and use all that power to do whatever it wants to.
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Until Super Shenron shows physical power capable of destroying multiple universes, I don't agree with rating him as able to do that. Universe restoring hax =/= punching strength. His size is the only physical feat he's shown, so there's no reason not to have him as that until he gets higher feats.
I'm fine with whichever the rest of the people agree on most however.
I'm fine with whichever the rest of the people agree on most however.
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So did goku lose ui or not . the sub's came in and it looks so
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Anyway, "at least 3-B" for Super Shenron physically sounds good.
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Again, it has to be proven he can throw a multiple universe destroying punch. Not proven that he can't. Universe restoring hax =/= punching power. Until his punching power has feats or statements on the level of his universe restoring hax, then it can be rated as the same.
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I'm in favor of giving Super Shenron 2-C outright. I'm not exactly for upgrading Frieza and 17 though.
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When the final episode causes a riot in the CRT forum but you're still riding the high you got from watching such an amazing episode
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Same goes for Zeno :^)Ryukama said:
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- Thread starter
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You guys are all ignoring the fact that not taking damage is actually a good feat. Like, if I'm initially placed at 7-B but then I'm taking hits from a 7-A, yet they are unable to put me out of the fight, then I would scale; even more so if I actually damaged them. 17 blocked a hit from GoD Toppo without any injuries, and also took a lot of punishment from Jiren. If 17 truly was fodder, he would simply be knocked out by a slap and be done with.
Let's talk about the whole outlier thing. Goku literally says they all went beyond their limits. Why does this logic only apply to Saiyans? Both Frieza and 17 got a lot stronger by fighting tough opponents. Jiren got stronger simply because he thought about his past. It's not uncommon for people to break their limits. Goku here said that they all did.
Let's talk about the whole outlier thing. Goku literally says they all went beyond their limits. Why does this logic only apply to Saiyans? Both Frieza and 17 got a lot stronger by fighting tough opponents. Jiren got stronger simply because he thought about his past. It's not uncommon for people to break their limits. Goku here said that they all did.
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I like how there's still absolutely 0 proof that Super Shenron, or any dragons in DB, can use their power in actual combat when they can't make wishes for themselves as depicted the entire series.
Also, why are we talking about "imputing power" into the feat? Wishing universes gone is hax. It's not an AP feat at all.
Also, why are we talking about "imputing power" into the feat? Wishing universes gone is hax. It's not an AP feat at all.
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In favour of Super Shenron getting upgraded to 2-C, but with a key that says "Up to 2-C with wishes"
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