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Dragon Ball Super: Episode 131 Upgrades
- Thread starter KingPin0422
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Jiren is a being who surpasses the God's of Destruction and even an improved Ultra Instinct Goku couldn't defeat him, Goku had to master Ultra Instinct in order to defeat Jiren. It's implied Toppo had just acquired the fruits of his training. You could also chalk it up to bad writing. But, I digress.Sparky "Dante" Marky1234 said:
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Not when the wishes are not only hax, but also completely useless in combat. Hence the note I suggested. He only uses 2-C power through that, thats it.Aeyu said:
They aren't rated for their size because their size is 100% un-notable, unlike this thing which literallty dwarfs galaxies in size Gurren Lagaan style.
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@Kep
Supposed to be? According to what? Is not a portion of the power of a universal 4-D character at least Possibly High 3-A by its very nature? That's not based off of fallacies, that's based off of how previous tiering has been done for High 3-A vs Low 2-C. I mean, I could just as easily call that a fallacy fallacy.
And to be fair, 17's self-destruction was debunked at a time when it was believed he was killed by said destruction.
Supposed to be? According to what? Is not a portion of the power of a universal 4-D character at least Possibly High 3-A by its very nature? That's not based off of fallacies, that's based off of how previous tiering has been done for High 3-A vs Low 2-C. I mean, I could just as easily call that a fallacy fallacy.
And to be fair, 17's self-destruction was debunked at a time when it was believed he was killed by said destruction.
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GoD Toppo could also have casually destroyed 17 if he wanted to, and was stated in the episode itself to be much stronger than 17. Comparable foes to 17 were absolutely demolished by a casual Toppo too.
His only Low 2-C feat is an obvious outlier that contradicts all of his other feats.
His only Low 2-C feat is an obvious outlier that contradicts all of his other feats.
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@Vegan
Which wouod be all the more reason to not hold back and take out everyone at once.
17, Freeza, and all the others would have had to save their energy until a crucial moment were to arise. They can't afford to burn themselves out 20 minutes into the tournament unless absolutley neccesary, as they'd become utterly useless in the later half of the ToP, where the better, stronger, more dangerous enemies would be.
Which wouod be all the more reason to not hold back and take out everyone at once.
17, Freeza, and all the others would have had to save their energy until a crucial moment were to arise. They can't afford to burn themselves out 20 minutes into the tournament unless absolutley neccesary, as they'd become utterly useless in the later half of the ToP, where the better, stronger, more dangerous enemies would be.
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Not to mention the episode explicitly stated several times Toppo was holding back significantly as to not kill his opponents.Kepekley23 said:
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Your attempt to argue High 3-A is an explicit fallacy, as I've pointed out three times in this thread. We shouldn't throw a bone at debunked PoVs.
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@ProfessorKukui
Love how you completely ignore my sound argument about EVERY PREVIOUS DRAGON scaling to its master in terms of what it can do.
"B-But it's hax!"
Hax that's limited in scope by who its master is. Apparently, SS's master is At least 2-C. (coughprobablyZen'ocough)
Love how you completely ignore my sound argument about EVERY PREVIOUS DRAGON scaling to its master in terms of what it can do.
"B-But it's hax!"
Hax that's limited in scope by who its master is. Apparently, SS's master is At least 2-C. (coughprobablyZen'ocough)
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@Kep
Just pointing and saying "Fallacy" doesn't detract from the logic of our tiering system, which is entirely what my logic is based in. Small portion of 4-D power that lets you fight Low 2-C's = sounds very logically like High 3-A, or at the very least, "Possibly".
Just pointing and saying "Fallacy" doesn't detract from the logic of our tiering system, which is entirely what my logic is based in. Small portion of 4-D power that lets you fight Low 2-C's = sounds very logically like High 3-A, or at the very least, "Possibly".
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1. Speculation at its finest
2. Unless im missing something. S.S. doesnt have a confirmed master, so idk why your bringing this argument up.
3. None of the other dragons can be used in combat either for the exact same reasons more or less. This is literally specficed on their pages and Dragon himself said here already that they aren't combat characters.
2. Unless im missing something. S.S. doesnt have a confirmed master, so idk why your bringing this argument up.
3. None of the other dragons can be used in combat either for the exact same reasons more or less. This is literally specficed on their pages and Dragon himself said here already that they aren't combat characters.
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Anilaza was also overpowering six opponents who were stronger or comparable to 17, including the man himself at once, and 17 alone could obviously not stand up to him.
He was a joke even to some of the 3-As. Low 2-C or High 3-A, the latter of which is a Golden Mean fallacy, are outliers at best.
He was a joke even to some of the 3-As. Low 2-C or High 3-A, the latter of which is a Golden Mean fallacy, are outliers at best.
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It's a little thing called Plot Armor my friend, the exact reason why Jiren didn't just blast everyone off the stage in the first second of the Tournament, it doesn't make it as interesting to watch.Sparky "Dante" Marky1234 said:
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Also this doesn't need a highlight. This is a Dragon Ball thread. It getting attention is part of its nature.
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Let's see:
ToP ends. Happy ending. Looking forward to all the things that can be done now that we've got so many characters to reuse in future stories.
Basically, feeling real good as a DB fan right now. I see this highlighted and:
ToP ends. Happy ending. Looking forward to all the things that can be done now that we've got so many characters to reuse in future stories.
Basically, feeling real good as a DB fan right now. I see this highlighted and:
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@Aeyu
The crux of your argument is pretty much a Golden Mean fallacy; that we should "meet in the middle". It is an invalid argument since there is no evidence at all for High 3-A, and harming a Low 2-C is a Low 2-C feat no matter how you interpret it.
The crux of your argument is pretty much a Golden Mean fallacy; that we should "meet in the middle". It is an invalid argument since there is no evidence at all for High 3-A, and harming a Low 2-C is a Low 2-C feat no matter how you interpret it.
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@Kukui
1. Pot calling the kettle black. You literally speculated yourself before when I gave reasoning for why it should be 2-C even without that information. Furthermore, it's not speculation, it's been explained several times in the series.
2. Using your previous argument about how "all dragons have consistently blah blah blah..." All dragons previously shown have been demonstrated to have a master. And it's clearly explained that "Zalama" created the Dragon and the Balls some time before the beginning of DB.
3. That has nothing to do with what I'm explaining to you.
@Kep
True, but you could extend this to Goku as well, who was in full-powered SSJB (Who could compete with Jiren and was Low 2-C) when fighting Anilaza. If anything, Anilaza's the one with the outlier and not 17, who's demonstrated the ability to fight Low 2-C's several times now.
1. Pot calling the kettle black. You literally speculated yourself before when I gave reasoning for why it should be 2-C even without that information. Furthermore, it's not speculation, it's been explained several times in the series.
2. Using your previous argument about how "all dragons have consistently blah blah blah..." All dragons previously shown have been demonstrated to have a master. And it's clearly explained that "Zalama" created the Dragon and the Balls some time before the beginning of DB.
3. That has nothing to do with what I'm explaining to you.
@Kep
True, but you could extend this to Goku as well, who was in full-powered SSJB (Who could compete with Jiren and was Low 2-C) when fighting Anilaza. If anything, Anilaza's the one with the outlier and not 17, who's demonstrated the ability to fight Low 2-C's several times now.
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@Kep
Then all scaling is "Golden Mean" BS at this level. The fact of the matter is that a possibly High 3-A rating is far more believable and reliable than a possibly Low 2-C one. A 4-D being with limited power vs one with universal power seems very appropriate as where to scale these characters, as they have been shown to keep up with Low 2-C's but still be massively inferior.
Then all scaling is "Golden Mean" BS at this level. The fact of the matter is that a possibly High 3-A rating is far more believable and reliable than a possibly Low 2-C one. A 4-D being with limited power vs one with universal power seems very appropriate as where to scale these characters, as they have been shown to keep up with Low 2-C's but still be massively inferior.
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1. And thats where your missing the point majorly. For the upteenth time, I literally said Super Shenron not being 2-C is downplay. He is 2-C. My point was that, like the other dragons, he can't use his 2-C power in battle because its not suitable for combat. Your focusing too much on the former and not seeing the latter.
2. Which he never appeared, so still speculation and doesnt change my point.
3. But it does with mine, which you are missing.
Is he 2-C? Yes. But in combat for vs battles? No. That is my point.
2. Which he never appeared, so still speculation and doesnt change my point.
3. But it does with mine, which you are missing.
Is he 2-C? Yes. But in combat for vs battles? No. That is my point.
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Guys, girls, please stop fighting.
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@Kukui
Please don't try and backtrack. Your point was defending the "At least 3-B" rating on SS's profile which is absolutely redundant, not whether or not SS was applicable for fights.
2. It's not "speculation" when it's very literally stated in the show. I can obviously get scans, so don't go there.
3. And once again, you're backtracking.
Please don't try and backtrack. Your point was defending the "At least 3-B" rating on SS's profile which is absolutely redundant, not whether or not SS was applicable for fights.
2. It's not "speculation" when it's very literally stated in the show. I can obviously get scans, so don't go there.
3. And once again, you're backtracking.
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@Vegan 1. My point with Toppo still stands.
2. Only Jiren can really be defended by this argument. Freeza is clearly not the strongest, so he would've had to pace himself. He never went all out early on, which would help support him. And 17 has been portrayed to be superior to Freeza (him doing better against GoD Toppo than Freeza being a good example)
You can only rule something out as pis and plot armor so many times.
2. Only Jiren can really be defended by this argument. Freeza is clearly not the strongest, so he would've had to pace himself. He never went all out early on, which would help support him. And 17 has been portrayed to be superior to Freeza (him doing better against GoD Toppo than Freeza being a good example)
You can only rule something out as pis and plot armor so many times.
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High 3-A is infinitely above 3-A. Unless weakened Jiren has a statement that implying he is on this level, High 3-A Frieza and 17 is an outlier.
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@Aeyu
You're missing the point of me pointing out that the argument is a fallacy, my dudette. You have no evidence at all for High 3-A, and you're committing a fallacy on top of it.
You're missing the point of me pointing out that the argument is a fallacy, my dudette. You have no evidence at all for High 3-A, and you're committing a fallacy on top of it.
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Also, High 3-A is no less of an outlier.
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DIdn't they literally state Zarama was the creator of the S.D.B ? I mean... I thought that was obvious. Even if my info is inaccurate ... Every single one of the Dragon Balls had a creator, so it is speculatory to presume otherwise without solid evidence . Anyways, i am neutral on High 3-A Frieza and 17 . I am intrigued to see if it goes through or not . I obviously agree with 2-C Super Shenron.
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@Homu
Assumption, in that he was clearly shown to power back up enough to a substantial level. He doesn't need statements, and your argument is a double-edge sword, as even a weakened Low 2-C would essentially be Low 2-C. That makes more sense then continually calling 17 and Freeza's feats outliers and saying Jiren must be 3-A because of it.
Assumption, in that he was clearly shown to power back up enough to a substantial level. He doesn't need statements, and your argument is a double-edge sword, as even a weakened Low 2-C would essentially be Low 2-C. That makes more sense then continually calling 17 and Freeza's feats outliers and saying Jiren must be 3-A because of it.
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Goku said Frieza, himself and 17 have gone far beyond thier limits.
Just putting that out there
Just putting that out there
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He then powered up when Toppo gave him a pep talk. At that point Goku said himself 17 and frieza have gone far beyond their limitsPeter1129 said:
Subs out seems like the Jiren they are fighting in this episode is weakened to 3-A.
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Beyond their limit=/=Infinitely stronger.
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Kelfa went Low 2-C from SSJ1 to SSJ2. That's not infinite. Dragon Ball doesn't follow that kind of logic.Homu Sweet Homu said:
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@Kep
It's not an outlier when it's happened several times over, and once again, you just keep saying "Fallacy" over and over like it makes any bit of difference. You're committing a fallacy by seeing fallacies in everything and not at least considering what I'm saying. I've said over and over that a 3-A, possibly High 3-A rating is far more honest, and once again, please explain to me how being comparable to a portion of a universal 4-D being =/= High 3-A.
It's not an outlier when it's happened several times over, and once again, you just keep saying "Fallacy" over and over like it makes any bit of difference. You're committing a fallacy by seeing fallacies in everything and not at least considering what I'm saying. I've said over and over that a 3-A, possibly High 3-A rating is far more honest, and once again, please explain to me how being comparable to a portion of a universal 4-D being =/= High 3-A.
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