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Dragon Ball Super: Episode 131 Upgrades

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1. Anilaza's Low 2-C feat is an outlier, but him destroying people who could defeat or stalemate 17 isn't. So my point still stands. 17 always gets absolutely demolished whenever he fights a Low 2-C, and is considerably inferior to the highest 3-As.

2. Except 17 harming a Low 2-C is a Low 2-C feat. There is no such thing as "High 3-A". That's hiding the outlier, no offense. It being "more reasonable" doesn't change the fact it is both fallacious and unfounded.
 
1. "Considerably inferior to the highest 3-A's"

Uh, since when?

"Him destroying people who could defeat or stalemate 17 isn't"

Give examples. You mean SSJG Goku after he had already broken his limits twice? Doesn't count. 18? Still doesn't count.

2. "No such thing as High 3-A"

excuse me what

"Hiding the outlier"

Oh, you mean that thing that's happened like 10 times now by this point?

You constantly calling my arguments fallacious and unfounded could be argued to be the same.

Additionally, the "no one's powered up" thing could be explained by the above picture of everyone having broken their limits by now. I think that's exactly what we needed, but I can't support anything more than a "Possibly X" rating.
 
Aeyu said:
@Peter

Using that and then taking out of context how Jiren immediately powered up again not too long after is disingenuous to this argument.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the last fight against Jiren is an outlier. Frieza was out of his Golden Form fighting in base and Goku was fighting in base and super saiyan after getting all beaten up.
 
Homu Sweet Homu said:
@Zenkai From what I read in her profile, Kefla has the feat matching UI Goku and a statement to justify her tier.
Click to expand...
And 17 and Frieza have harming Jiren to justify theirs. Furthermore, Jiren powered back up at that time and the characters said he has gotten past his issues.
 
17:

  • Got wrecked by a casual and massively suppressed GoD Toppo
  • Had to team up with a half-dozen 3-As to match Anilaza, would've gotten destroyed otherwise
  • Freeza, who is somewhere in his level, also gets demolished by Toppo with ease
  • Only stomps fodders, always struggles or at best defeats mid tier 3-As such as the Universe 6 fighters.
He is not High 3-A, and not Low 2-C.
 
Oh you mean like the 10 other "outliers"? Pretty sure an outlier is something that happens out of context only once or twice. This has happened a multitude of times and now even has an explanation in that "Everyone has broken their limits".
 
"10 other outliers" is dishonest, no offense. He only has two at best. Getting destroyed by a Low 2-C isn't a feat.
 
@Zenkai Except the fact both of them can do anything to Jiren is the obvious proof at how weakened Jiren is. Means that Weakened Jiren is 3-A.
 
I am calling your arguments fallacious because you're making use of a fallacy. If your argument is fallacious, you have to make an effort not to use said fallacy instead of acting like it doesn't matter.
 
Agree with Kepe. Android 17's and Frieza get consistently pushed back, or at the very least keep up evenly with 3-A characters (Pre-ToP Goku, Anilaza, Dyspo, Base Toppo just to name a few). Their Low 2-C feats are clearly P.I.S, coming from writers that had to give the ToP a conclusion and / or had no idea of the gap in power between the 3-A characters and Low 2-C beings.
 
That's ignoring that:

  • Goku also needed to team up to beat Anilaza, in SSJB at full power after beating Kefla and obtaining UI twice (Low 2-C)
Pretty sure that's an outlier for Anilaza if anything.

  • Implying Toppo was suppressed
There's was really no indication of that, and Vegeta got curbstomped too in his Low 2-C form before powering up even further a la Future Trunks.

Freeza may have been messed up by Toppo, but still got to his feet and was able to fight. 17 at full power, while being knocked out for a while, was able to cancel Jiren's full-powered blast.

>Only stomps fodders

Goku struggled against several opponents while in SSJB/SSJG before as well. Doesn't mean Goku isn't above them, it means he wasn't using his full power, and this new "everyone has broken their limits" thing really cements a "Possibly X" rating.

Also, just saying I'm using fallacies doesn't prove I'm using fallacies when I'm trying to powerscale based off THE SYSTEM WE USE. You calling my arguments fallacies is fallacious in and of itself, and maybe YOU should realize what you're doing.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
I could definitely see SSJ God post-MUI being Low 2-C though... Not SSJ1 Goku... As powerful as he likely is.
Click to expand...
Yeah at best only SSG would be Low 2-C. The scaling after mastering Ultra Instinct would probably be something like this.

Mastered UI > Post-MUI SSBKKx20 > Post-Kefla UIO > Post-MUI SSB > Post-Kefla SSBKKx20 > Post-Jiren UIO > Post-MUI SSG > Post-Kefla SSB > Pre-Jiren UIO > Spirit Bomb > Post-Jiren SSBKKx20 > Post-Kefla SSG > Post-Jiren SSB > Pre-Jiren SSBKKx20 > Post-Jiren SSG > Pre-Jiren SSB > Pre-Jiren SSG

Although Post-MUI Base or SS1 Goku might be Pre-Jiren SSB Lvl now.
 
@Vegan

Yeah, the 3-D portion, who no one was arguing for. High 3-A can be confusing.
 
Pretty sure that's an outlier for Anilaza if anything.

I've already said it's an outlier for Anilaza, but unless you're implying Anilaza is weaker than 17, him beating the other 3-As is not an outlier.

There's was really no indication of that, and Vegeta got curbstomped too in his Low 2-C form before powering up even further a la Future Trunks.

Toppo was explicitly holding back in order to avoid killing 17.

Freeza may have been messed up by Toppo, but still got to his feet and was able to fight.

Which isn't a feat.

17 at full power, while being knocked out for a while, was able to cancel Jiren's full-powered blast.

Which we've already discussed twice. We all acknowledged it was an outlier.

Goku struggled against several opponents while in SSJB/SSJG before as well. Doesn't mean Goku isn't above them, it means he wasn't using his full power,

There's no proof 17 wasn't serious against the Universe 6 fighters. The only one he explicitly countered with utter ease was Katopesla, who is a fodder.

Also, just saying I'm using fallacies doesn't prove I'm using fallacies when I'm trying to powerscale based off THE SYSTEM WE USE. You calling my arguments fallacies is fallacious in and of itself, and maybe YOU should realize what you're doing.

Chill out.

I've already proven you're using a fallacy, and linked to it. Make an effort not to, thanks.
 
Vegan Gains said:
If not mentioned already, High 3-A is infinetly inferior to Low 2-C, ie a whole dimension apart.
Click to expand...
High 3-A also applies to beings that are 4-D, but in a scale bellow Universal (For exemple, destroying a Tesseract would be a High 3-A). That said, the difference between the 4-D side of High 3-A and Low 2-C is immeasurable, so scaling High 3-A's from Low 2-C beings is still wrong.
 
Since everyone seems to agree with Super Shenron's clear cut 2-C (and cause I've been wanting to upgrade him for over a year now ovo) I have done so.
 
1. You're ignoring the bit about Goku, and yes I am in regard to Anilaza's feats being outliers.

2. Just because he could have destroyed Freeza with the energy doesn't mean he's holding back energy. Again, ignoring Vegeta.

3. How does that not count for durability?

4. "We all acknowledged it was an outlier"

When he was "confirmed" to have been destroyed by the blast.

5. Implying that Goku wasn't "serious" vs previous enemies as well. Serious =/= full power, and especially not limit-breaking power.

6. Stop talking down to me. I'm not some ignorant dullard who doesn't know what she's talking about, contrary to how you like to talk to me. Apparently, to you, though, scaling equals fallacies.

@Dziga

Low 2-C is literally the same thing as High 3-A but on a universal level.
 
A better explanation for High 3-A Golden Freeza might be him surviving Toppo's hakai which destroyed/warped the entire world of void?
 
Still sticking with my agreements for the upgrades, both sides make pretty good points but Aeyu's arguments seem more convincing to me.
 
I didn't talk down to you. '''Please''' stop blowing the issue out of proportion and trying to cause a shitstorm. Thanks.
 
@Ryukama

It still has the redundant, unfounded "At least 3-B" rating on it however. I've detailed throughout this thread why such a rating is useless and honestly disingenuous.
 
You still can't measure the exact difference in power between higher dimensional beings like we do with everything bellow High 3-A.
 
I have already said why I disagree heavily with High 3-A, Low 2-C or anything above 3-A. So I will just watch this thread and do damage control instead of indirectly feeding a shitstorm.
 
@Dziga

You're missing the point of High 3-A vs Low 2-C. Such differences are very clearly explained.

@Kep

Constantly dismissing my arguments as fallacies when I'm trying to be reasonable in scaling characters and ignoring every counter-argument I've made in favor of your original point is talking down to me.
 
Super Shenron has no feats or statements about his own physical power outside his massive size, which at that point being so large in of itself is a major feat. Nothing suggests he would've punched a God of Destruction to death. His physical rating is perfectly fine.
 
@Ryu

That's ignoring that literally every other dragon is limited in the scope of their hax AND power to the level associated to their master. instead of to something arbitrary such as their size. So if SS can perform 2-C hax, it's far more reasonable to assume that he's physically 2-C than the other way around.
 
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