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If Whis is getting involved then Broly is a complete beast.
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 69
- Thread starter ZERO7772
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@BlackeJan Jiren is only stronger than the Second UIS when he shows a hint of his true power. Broly is probably already nearly as strong as the Second UIS in Base form alone. Not to mention it's pretty much a rule for the next Dragon Ball villain to be stronger than the last. Although there are some exceptions to that rule.
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I think he's just counting the UIs he fought Jiren with. Not counting KeflaBlackeJan said:
JohnCenaNation
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1/2. Do you even know the defination of infinite or are you just simply tossing the word around? Infinite is limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate. Which doesn't define Goku nor Jiren or else Jiren wouldn't lose his fight against Goku nor Goku would have lost Ultra Instinct transformation after 1 minutes.Warren Valion said:
3. Neither Goku nor Vegeta shown that astonishing amount of growth rate. It took both Goku and Vegeta four years to surpass Buu Saga Vegito. Vegeta after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber lost to Black just like he did before Hyperbolic Time Chamber. In order for Vegeta is surpass Vegito Blue who in his base form is already more powerful than Blue Vegeta, Vegeta would need to train for the total timespam from when he was first introduced to EoS DBZ to surpass Vegito Blue.
4. Toriyama has no plans for neither Goku nor Vegeta to surpass Beerus nor Whis, so what made you think Jiren is stronger than Beerus?
5. You mean the same Supreme Kai that was scared of Pui-Pui?
6. The fact remains that we don't know Beerus's full power. When Golden Frieza was first introduced, everyone thought he was stronger than Beerus, and now look what happened. If Beerus one-shot Ultra Instinct Goku or Limit Breaker Jiren, would you still say the same thing?
Not like Dragon Ball Super was ever canon. Toriyama didn't draw or wrote the manga nor animated the anime, the entire work was done by someone else.
Will this even follow the anime continuity? The film might be apart of it's own seperate continuity.
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This stuff should be on CRT. Next comment gets deleted and the user gets a warning.
There has been no confirmation that indicates this follows the anime yet though. It's seemed like it had a higher chance of following the manga continuity, but since we are getting a manga adaptation of the Broly film, that can't be the case either.
For all we know it could follow the BoG/ROF movies and Toriyama's draft notes.
For all we know it could follow the BoG/ROF movies and Toriyama's draft notes.
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@JohnCenaNatio
Don't quote large boxes of text.
1. Do you even know what dimensional tiering is, because from your comment it seems that you don't? You can learn about it here.
Oh, and Infinite Stamina =/= Infinite Power
People with higher dimensional levels of strength, get tired and run out of energy all the time in fiction. And there are plenty of characters with finite strength that never runs out of stamina or power, like Andriod 17.
Seriously, what's next?
"Goku can't be faster than Light because that's not physically possible." or "If DBZ characters could destroy planets, than why doesn't there Ki blasts destroy Earth when it hits the planet, huh?"
Your statement, as well as the example I listed above are equally ridiculous. It's fiction, not everything is going to be completely logically like in real life.
If you can't handle that, then why are you here?
2. This is just completely inaccurate on all accounts. Goku and Vegeta have shown to gotten massively stronger.
'Member when Berserker Kale pimp-slapped Blue Goku? And remember how after the first appearance of Ultra Instinct Sign that red God Goku was then able to pimp slap a much stronger controlled version of Berserker Kale and Caulifla simultaneously.
And you completely cut out the context to the entire confrontation between Vegeta and Black. After Vegeta's training, he beat the shit out of Black, shown here. The thing is that Black's Zenkai's made him even stronger than Vegeta. Don't cut context.
And don't compare previous experiences of training to current experiences. The jumps from a little bit of training in Super are astronomical to the point that it is comical. I mentioned this in my last post, I'll just quote myself:
"Seriously? You think a lack of consistency in power growth when it comes to training is what proves your argument right? You do know everyone in Super grew unfathomably stronger in a much shorter amount of time, right? It is even a meme. Look at Piccolo, Goha, 17, or Frieza for some examples of this."
3. Correction. Toriyama HAD no plans at the time for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus back in the RoF Arc IIRC. Years have passed since then.
And numerous things state that Jiren is > than Beerus. Like the Hermes translation, you mentioned in your last post.
And what does any of this have to do to the comment you are responding to?
4. So the Supreme Kai being scared of someone stronger than him means he can't calculate and judge power levels? Stop this, please. It is completely ridiculous and disingenuous.
5. People's fan-theories from like 3 years ago don't have any basis in this discussion.
This discussion is about whether or not Goku and Jiren should keep their Low 2-C ratings. Not whether or not they scale above Beerus. Although there are statements that say that Jiren at full-power and when he broke his limits are beyond Beerus - again the Hermes translation that you brought up for no reason last time - that doesn't matter to this discussion.
One of the numerous reasons that they are Low 2-C, is because even an uber-suppressed Jiren was stated to be > than Infinite Zamasu, was stated as being beyond time, Goku stated that Jiren's attacks were like nothing he's ever experienced before, and both Jiren and Goku casually did a High 3-A feat at their most passive. Plus many other statements and feats.
If Beerus was to suddenly one-shot Jiren or Goku, then it would be a retcon, or simply PIS. The scaling would need to be examined and debated as it always is.
Dragon Ball Super IS canon. Toriyama writes the basic plot outline and sends it to both Toei and Toyotaro, and they run with it. And the canonicity of the series won't change just because you want it to. But again, what does this have to do with your initial argument.
Your arguments are completely disingenuous, and you keep ignoring the rebuttals in favor of bringing up comments that make no sense.
If you are going to bring an argument for a downgrade, at least make it make sense, please.
Don't quote large boxes of text.
1. Do you even know what dimensional tiering is, because from your comment it seems that you don't? You can learn about it here.
Oh, and Infinite Stamina =/= Infinite Power
People with higher dimensional levels of strength, get tired and run out of energy all the time in fiction. And there are plenty of characters with finite strength that never runs out of stamina or power, like Andriod 17.
Seriously, what's next?
"Goku can't be faster than Light because that's not physically possible." or "If DBZ characters could destroy planets, than why doesn't there Ki blasts destroy Earth when it hits the planet, huh?"
Your statement, as well as the example I listed above are equally ridiculous. It's fiction, not everything is going to be completely logically like in real life.
If you can't handle that, then why are you here?
2. This is just completely inaccurate on all accounts. Goku and Vegeta have shown to gotten massively stronger.
'Member when Berserker Kale pimp-slapped Blue Goku? And remember how after the first appearance of Ultra Instinct Sign that red God Goku was then able to pimp slap a much stronger controlled version of Berserker Kale and Caulifla simultaneously.
And you completely cut out the context to the entire confrontation between Vegeta and Black. After Vegeta's training, he beat the shit out of Black, shown here. The thing is that Black's Zenkai's made him even stronger than Vegeta. Don't cut context.
And don't compare previous experiences of training to current experiences. The jumps from a little bit of training in Super are astronomical to the point that it is comical. I mentioned this in my last post, I'll just quote myself:
"Seriously? You think a lack of consistency in power growth when it comes to training is what proves your argument right? You do know everyone in Super grew unfathomably stronger in a much shorter amount of time, right? It is even a meme. Look at Piccolo, Goha, 17, or Frieza for some examples of this."
3. Correction. Toriyama HAD no plans at the time for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus back in the RoF Arc IIRC. Years have passed since then.
And numerous things state that Jiren is > than Beerus. Like the Hermes translation, you mentioned in your last post.
And what does any of this have to do to the comment you are responding to?
4. So the Supreme Kai being scared of someone stronger than him means he can't calculate and judge power levels? Stop this, please. It is completely ridiculous and disingenuous.
5. People's fan-theories from like 3 years ago don't have any basis in this discussion.
This discussion is about whether or not Goku and Jiren should keep their Low 2-C ratings. Not whether or not they scale above Beerus. Although there are statements that say that Jiren at full-power and when he broke his limits are beyond Beerus - again the Hermes translation that you brought up for no reason last time - that doesn't matter to this discussion.
One of the numerous reasons that they are Low 2-C, is because even an uber-suppressed Jiren was stated to be > than Infinite Zamasu, was stated as being beyond time, Goku stated that Jiren's attacks were like nothing he's ever experienced before, and both Jiren and Goku casually did a High 3-A feat at their most passive. Plus many other statements and feats.
If Beerus was to suddenly one-shot Jiren or Goku, then it would be a retcon, or simply PIS. The scaling would need to be examined and debated as it always is.
Dragon Ball Super IS canon. Toriyama writes the basic plot outline and sends it to both Toei and Toyotaro, and they run with it. And the canonicity of the series won't change just because you want it to. But again, what does this have to do with your initial argument.
Your arguments are completely disingenuous, and you keep ignoring the rebuttals in favor of bringing up comments that make no sense.
If you are going to bring an argument for a downgrade, at least make it make sense, please.
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I always think about how amazing it is that Beerus has been on top (or at least >>>Goku and Vegeta) for so long. Goku and Vegeta were always considered so strong compared to everything in Z and now they've been weaker than the same guy for most of DBS.
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And because of that Beerus decides to take his anger out on Vegeta who is still weaker than him. That is unless Vegeta managed to break his limits a second time in the movie and enter SSBE once more. Which would also make Vegeta stronger than Beerus since he also managed to get much stronger after using SSBE.
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I think the shot of Whis is from the same time when Freeza in his base form fights Broly. It might be when Freeza first finds Broly.
The trailer looks gorgeous. Can't wait to hear the screams in the english dub version.
The trailer looks gorgeous. Can't wait to hear the screams in the english dub version.
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@BlackeJan Beerus lied. Because even after Goku absorbed SSG into his base and than getting so much stronger with each arc on top of breaking his limits with UI and making his weakened Post-MUI base form stronger than Pre-UIS SSBKK he's still weaker than Beerus in the Broly Arc without Ultra Instinct.
To simplify it a bit. Broly Arc Goku can use SSBKK on his current Base Form that is pretty much already SSBKK stacked on SSBKK and he's still weaker than Beerus. So BoG SSG Goku being anywhere close to 1% of Beerus is just laughable.
To simplify it a bit. Broly Arc Goku can use SSBKK on his current Base Form that is pretty much already SSBKK stacked on SSBKK and he's still weaker than Beerus. So BoG SSG Goku being anywhere close to 1% of Beerus is just laughable.
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That's is false righ there. Yur to tell me that u guys think Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was stronger then SSG Goku?. Also again the % of someone PL can differs depending on how strong someone is (like the example of SSJ3 and Beerus) so even if Goku got stronger each arc (training does jack sh*t since Vegeta even admitted that training doesn't give good results anymore since their PL is too high for it to make a difference
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@Blacke
It was said that Beerus was using 10% to knock him out with a finger tap, but it was mistranslated and is actually 1%. At least that's what I remember.
Training does a lot. Vegeta might have said that, but he himself contradicts that statement in the arc that he brought it up.
It was said that Beerus was using 10% to knock him out with a finger tap, but it was mistranslated and is actually 1%. At least that's what I remember.
Training does a lot. Vegeta might have said that, but he himself contradicts that statement in the arc that he brought it up.
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Mistranslation? where exactly? I still don't but the SSG is not 1% of Beerus cause we all know that he's stronger then 1% Training does help but not like it used to since again their PL is too high now so the only treaty way to actually get stronger is from their Saiyan genes/Zenkais
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Turns out the 1% thing is wrong, so nvm.
It took Goku getting a power that surpassed SSG in base, multiple gigantic amplifications, and Ultra Instinct to possibly surpass Beerus. No way is SSG 1% or more, especially since some of those increases can be tens of times, like the second Hit fight and Dyspo fight.
No, Goku got significantly stronger with Whis after getting scratched by that bullet. That was the entire point of that episode, for him to get back into shape. It's also referenced many times in the RoF saga that they're the type to get stronger when pushed by training. Goku also makes constant reference to have been doing training even after Vegeta's statement, which is contradicted btw, since at the start of that arc they literally got stronger by training, and Vegeta says they only beat U6 because of training.
It took Goku getting a power that surpassed SSG in base, multiple gigantic amplifications, and Ultra Instinct to possibly surpass Beerus. No way is SSG 1% or more, especially since some of those increases can be tens of times, like the second Hit fight and Dyspo fight.
No, Goku got significantly stronger with Whis after getting scratched by that bullet. That was the entire point of that episode, for him to get back into shape. It's also referenced many times in the RoF saga that they're the type to get stronger when pushed by training. Goku also makes constant reference to have been doing training even after Vegeta's statement, which is contradicted btw, since at the start of that arc they literally got stronger by training, and Vegeta says they only beat U6 because of training.
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@BlackeJan Dude even current Broly Arc Goku at Full Power without Ultra Instinct is confirmed to still be weaker than Beerus. And Broly Arc Goku is basically Post-MUI Goku who's weakened Base Form was literally shown to be stronger than Android 17 and Golden Frieza combined. So there is no way for BoG SSG to be anywhere near 1% of Beerus' power.
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Beerus only said he used 10% to knock Vegeta out. Vegeta did not equal that 10% of Beerus.
And Beerus has been notorious for lying about his power in that entire arc. You just have to watch the series to realize that not even SSBKKx10 from the U6 arc is 1% of Beerus.
And Beerus has been notorious for lying about his power in that entire arc. You just have to watch the series to realize that not even SSBKKx10 from the U6 arc is 1% of Beerus.
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