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At the end of the BoG arc, Beerus admits to Whis that he lied about basically everything btw.
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 69
- Thread starter ZERO7772
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Dude....he only lied about the SSG thing cause he was trying. To have Goku push himself even higher....and please tell me why on earth would Vegeta not be more then 5% of Beerus when the latter himself said he HAD to use 10% to knock him out....that wouldn't make any sense for someone that's not even 1% to have the cat himself use more of that to knock someone out?AKM sama said:
@SomebodyData
Yeah....lied about the SSG fight
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@Black
The problem with that is, if you even assume SSB was 1% of Beerus, then if you stack the kaioken multipliers on top of that, you'll realize that SSBKKx20 Goku from episode 109 would easily surpass Beerus.
For example:
If SSB = 1% of Beerus
SSBKKx10 of U6 arc = 10% of Beerus
SSB Goku after the Future Trunks' arc > SSBKKx10 of U6 arc
SSB Goku after the Future Trunks' arc > 10% of Beerus
SSBKKx20 Goku of ToP > 200% of Beerus (which means 2x stronger)
And we know that's not the case.
The problem with that is, if you even assume SSB was 1% of Beerus, then if you stack the kaioken multipliers on top of that, you'll realize that SSBKKx20 Goku from episode 109 would easily surpass Beerus.
For example:
If SSB = 1% of Beerus
SSBKKx10 of U6 arc = 10% of Beerus
SSB Goku after the Future Trunks' arc > SSBKKx10 of U6 arc
SSB Goku after the Future Trunks' arc > 10% of Beerus
SSBKKx20 Goku of ToP > 200% of Beerus (which means 2x stronger)
And we know that's not the case.
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You forgot about ToP Pre-UIS SSG Goku keeping up with Base Dyspo who overwhelmed an even stronger Hit who stalemated Post-Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku. Which would make SSG Goku stronger than 10% of Beerus, SSB Goku 400 or 500% of Beerus (depending on what the SS multiplier is on vsbattles) and SSBKKx20 8000 or 10000% of Beerus. Which is wrong from what we've seen.
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Oh dear... RIP Goto. Your voice acting was... godly. Ignoring the terrible pun:
I agree that Base Broly likely already surpassed that of the First UIS . He's likely close , if not on par or exceeding 2nd UIS (without considering Legendary) considering the following:
- Wrathful Form (or at least him nearly reaching Wrathful, based on his hair not being spiky but clearly seeing his yellow eyes , or on the verge of it) Tanking SSG Vegeta's punch effortlessly and retaliating with a far greater punch than Vegeta did. We also see earlier that he is sent clearly flying from the force of Broly's punch.
- Fighting relative to SSB and requiring two on one from two Post-ToP SSB's (who both if they trained as hard as they implied to be should be stronger than SSB2 Kefla at least , and likely close to the verge of surpassing their peaks during the Tournament of Power, considering Goku's SSB was described in the same was as Ultra Instinct was in the offical statements) to keep up with him as Base/Wrathful Form and Super Saiyan. We see they are struggling to fight , even when fighting together.
- Having to endure fighting Whis in Wrathful Form, which IF he uses more than a GoD level of power against him would be consistent with how they are portraying Broly... IF he beats him... In either Wrathful or Full Powered Super Saiyan.... GG Powerscaling... We miss you.
AND btw if we use the above logic Broly without even going Super Saiyan is likely more than 50000% of Beerus' Full Power.
I agree that Base Broly likely already surpassed that of the First UIS . He's likely close , if not on par or exceeding 2nd UIS (without considering Legendary) considering the following:
- Wrathful Form (or at least him nearly reaching Wrathful, based on his hair not being spiky but clearly seeing his yellow eyes , or on the verge of it) Tanking SSG Vegeta's punch effortlessly and retaliating with a far greater punch than Vegeta did. We also see earlier that he is sent clearly flying from the force of Broly's punch.
- Fighting relative to SSB and requiring two on one from two Post-ToP SSB's (who both if they trained as hard as they implied to be should be stronger than SSB2 Kefla at least , and likely close to the verge of surpassing their peaks during the Tournament of Power, considering Goku's SSB was described in the same was as Ultra Instinct was in the offical statements) to keep up with him as Base/Wrathful Form and Super Saiyan. We see they are struggling to fight , even when fighting together.
- Having to endure fighting Whis in Wrathful Form, which IF he uses more than a GoD level of power against him would be consistent with how they are portraying Broly... IF he beats him... In either Wrathful or Full Powered Super Saiyan.... GG Powerscaling... We miss you.
AND btw if we use the above logic Broly without even going Super Saiyan is likely more than 50000% of Beerus' Full Power.
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Post-ToP SSB Goku was shown to have the upper hand against Base Broly in the trailer. And in the next scene it shows SS1 Broly fighting against SSB Goku and Vegeta. So Base Broly is much stronger than Post-ToP SSG but weaker than Post-ToP SSB which means his Base form is vastly above the First UIS but below Post-2nd UIS SSBKK Goku who is stronger than the Second UIS.
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@Peter ... I think similarly ... Yet in opposition. While I agree that at first the Bulked up Wrathful was portrayed weaker, he did get stronger. There was a segment where both Goku and Vegeta needed to team up... Twice in the trailer. One to hold back that Gigantic Meteor esque attack ( both teaming up, combining their blast into a Final Kamehameha esque technique ) , and the other when they were evading Broly later down the line. There was also the face he no-selled a serious blow from SSB Goku in said bulked up form, and showed to competitively keep up with him in the previous trailers.... Without turning Super Saiyan.
I respect your opinion regardless... As it does make sense and you are quite knowledgeable with DBS scaling.
I respect your opinion regardless... As it does make sense and you are quite knowledgeable with DBS scaling.
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I kinda agree with you. Right now from the trailer we saw SSB Goku gain the upper hand against Base Broly but than later on we saw Broly fighting SSB Goku with that huge energy ball. So right now I'm still kinda iffy on how strong Base Broly is. But the bare minimum is vastly above the First UIS via stomping Post-ToP SSG Goku And Vegeta.
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True... We can at least agree on that segment... Which is good.
When people jokingly said that Base Broly is likely > Kale... Then it is heavily supported by the trailers.
When people jokingly said that Base Broly is likely > Kale... Then it is heavily supported by the trailers.
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People only joke about Base Broly being stronger? I thought it was a given considering how most people tries to downplay Kale to SS2 lvl even though she's pretty much shown to be SSB lvl if not SSBKK lvl (Not that it makes any difference). Also I'm pretty sure Base Broly is even stronger than LSS2 Kefla if he really is on par with Post-ToP SSB. Since Post-ToP SSB is logically much stronger than Post-2nd UIS SSBKK which is stronger than the Second UIS.
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Then they were making comments about either SSB or SSBKK being comparable, if not higher to his highest peak in the tournament of power... Then SSB was directly compared to the Level fo Gods, which only UiS was compared to... If they didn't need to make it any more obvious... Which really at bare minimum is UiS 2nd, 3rd , or Complete Ultra Instinct. Likely the 1st option, but this movie can really pull anything about how powerful SSB Goku currently is, considering the supposed time-skip between ToP and Post-ToP .
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Oh are we comparing dumb comments now? Here's a tldr of one of the dumbest comment I've seen.
Goku never got any stronger in the ToP. Episode 109/110 Goku was holding back against Jiren that's why Episode 123 Goku managed to make Jiren use more energy than he previously did in the tournament.
Goku never got any stronger in the ToP. Episode 109/110 Goku was holding back against Jiren that's why Episode 123 Goku managed to make Jiren use more energy than he previously did in the tournament.
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By that logic: How does Goku go from being somewhat pressured by Kale in a stronger form, who has statements by background fighters to be at least SSG to SSBKK tier [Hit stating she was the strongest member of their team at the time ,Toppo being generally concerned with her despite knowing Goku has SSBKK up his arsenal ,Jiren's involvement when he only got involved with SSB level opponents BEFORE Kale] , but to overwhelm them with the amount of ki he uses when briefly tapping in SSJ3
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Also... While we are on the case w/ inconsistencies put under the rug and not directly addressed:
Couldn't we note that the case w/ Goku overwhelming Bergamo , despite it took SSBKK to do it prior , was more a testament to how stupdenously superior he is to his self during the Preliminary Rounds ? He was training quite a good deal w/ Whis, in the hyperbolic time chamber. Vegeta Post-Black Arc is likely at least comparable to Goku Black's Base considering their 2nd rematch . Training their base to be that powerful isn't at all contradictory considering that.
Couldn't we note that the case w/ Goku overwhelming Bergamo , despite it took SSBKK to do it prior , was more a testament to how stupdenously superior he is to his self during the Preliminary Rounds ? He was training quite a good deal w/ Whis, in the hyperbolic time chamber. Vegeta Post-Black Arc is likely at least comparable to Goku Black's Base considering their 2nd rematch . Training their base to be that powerful isn't at all contradictory considering that.
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Oh dear God no.JohnCenaNation said:
This is what I experienced back at Powerlisting wikia two years ago.
Pre-Crisis Supes is infinitely stronger than all High 3-A characters now, but he tires out a lot and gets stomped by other guys like Anti-Monitor. Dimensional tiering is a thing, John.
Let's take a more recent look.
In Assassin's Creed, Kassandra has infinite stamina thanks to the Staff of Hermes' powers, doesn't mean that she's still infinitely stronger because the Isu have not shown anything near that kind of power yet.
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So you're trying to suggest that ToP Pre-UIS SSB Goku > Exhibition Match SSBKK Goku because he can overwhelm Bergamo's absorption? Wait didn't Goku train with Whis in the gravity room rather than the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Doesn't Vegeta's profile already mention that End of Future Trunks Saga Vegeta is stronger than Goku Black before his scythe power up?
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Basically.
Does it ? I need to look at it then... If so, that would be interesting. That'd imply something interesting:
Goku and Vegeta's Base (Going into the Tournament of Power) >>>> Goku Black's Base (Considering they'd likely be as strong as Black was before his last upgrade with the scythe,considering SSB Vegeta's WTFpwned Rose Goku Black, and in order for that to happen, their bases have to be at least comparable. Then Goku and Vegeta train and get far stronger) .
That would mean some of the fodder in the tournament of power arc are > SSB Goku + Vegeta Pre-Black Arc . That's crazy...
Does it ? I need to look at it then... If so, that would be interesting. That'd imply something interesting:
Goku and Vegeta's Base (Going into the Tournament of Power) >>>> Goku Black's Base (Considering they'd likely be as strong as Black was before his last upgrade with the scythe,considering SSB Vegeta's WTFpwned Rose Goku Black, and in order for that to happen, their bases have to be at least comparable. Then Goku and Vegeta train and get far stronger) .
That would mean some of the fodder in the tournament of power arc are > SSB Goku + Vegeta Pre-Black Arc . That's crazy...
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I mean considering how ToP Pre-UIS SSG Goku can keep up with Base Dyspo who is stronger than Hit who is equal to Post-Future Trunks Saga SSB it's not really much of a surprise.
Also I'm sure ToP Goku and Vegeta are already stronger than Goku Black. Cause last time I checked Post-Scythe Goku Black was stated to be the strongest character during the Future Trunks Saga excluding the gods and fusions. Which would make him stronger than Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku. But that still pales in comparison to ToP Goku who was able to keep up with Post-Future Trunks SSB Lvl opponents with just SSG now.
Also I'm sure ToP Goku and Vegeta are already stronger than Goku Black. Cause last time I checked Post-Scythe Goku Black was stated to be the strongest character during the Future Trunks Saga excluding the gods and fusions. Which would make him stronger than Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku. But that still pales in comparison to ToP Goku who was able to keep up with Post-Future Trunks SSB Lvl opponents with just SSG now.
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Yeah.... The jump is at least 50x if we go by scaling ...
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Still not as big as the Ultra Instinct boosts though.
After the first UIS he managed to effortlessly stomp LSS2 Kale with just SSG when LSS1 Kale previously stomped his SSB and made Vegeta and Base Toppo stop fighting to comment on her power. And his SSBKK is now nearly as strong as LSS1 Kefla who was stated to be on par with the Spirit Bomb.
After the second UIS his SSB became stronger than Casual Jiren who was on par with his First UIS. And his SSBKK became stronger than the Second UIS.
After third UIS and UI even his heavily weakened Base is now stronger than Android 17 and Golden Frieza combined. And his current full power (SSBKK) is stated to be near that of the Gods.
After the first UIS he managed to effortlessly stomp LSS2 Kale with just SSG when LSS1 Kale previously stomped his SSB and made Vegeta and Base Toppo stop fighting to comment on her power. And his SSBKK is now nearly as strong as LSS1 Kefla who was stated to be on par with the Spirit Bomb.
After the second UIS his SSB became stronger than Casual Jiren who was on par with his First UIS. And his SSBKK became stronger than the Second UIS.
After third UIS and UI even his heavily weakened Base is now stronger than Android 17 and Golden Frieza combined. And his current full power (SSBKK) is stated to be near that of the Gods.
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Yeah... Those were crazy... And Vegeta's Blue Evolution power-up.
Remember if Ultra Instinct is used at all in this movie .. Broly would be confirmed stronger than Limit Breaker Jiren... Considering the requirements for Ultra Instinct has to be far greater than the last push he had ( Limit Breaker Jiren and Mastered Ultra Instinct rage power-up )
Not to mention the fact it's stated Goku and Vegeta are still rivals... So to be pushing Goku and Vegeta that far based on the trailers... Is beyond insane.
Remember if Ultra Instinct is used at all in this movie .. Broly would be confirmed stronger than Limit Breaker Jiren... Considering the requirements for Ultra Instinct has to be far greater than the last push he had ( Limit Breaker Jiren and Mastered Ultra Instinct rage power-up )
Not to mention the fact it's stated Goku and Vegeta are still rivals... So to be pushing Goku and Vegeta that far based on the trailers... Is beyond insane.
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Oh right almost forgot about Vegeta. His SSBE boost was somehow as big as all 3 of Goku's Ultra Instinct boosts combined.
It doesn't need to be Ultra Instinct. Broly fighting Gogeta would also confirm he's stronger than Limit Breaker Jiren.
Not to mention Broly did this in base for majority of the trailers.
It doesn't need to be Ultra Instinct. Broly fighting Gogeta would also confirm he's stronger than Limit Breaker Jiren.
Not to mention Broly did this in base for majority of the trailers.
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I don't like how they state that Goku/Vegeta got stronger but don't really show it. Like when Goku fought Whis, the latter states that the former and Vegeta have become much more powerful, and later that they can finally move in the heavy suits during the U6 arc.
There's obviously exceptions though: When Goku and Vegeta learn to control their energy better, and Ultra Instinct.
There's obviously exceptions though: When Goku and Vegeta learn to control their energy better, and Ultra Instinct.
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You don't really need visual effects to show they got stronger. When Post-UIS SSG Goku fought LSS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla there weren't any crazy visual effects. And I really don't like it when people base off Goku getting stronger on visual effects. That's pretty much one of the reason why Low 2-C Anilaza got rejected. Some were saying Goku wasn't at full power when he fought Anilaza as a SSB because he didn't have the lightning around him. Even though he also wasn't at full power when he stomped Kale and Caulifla.
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I didn't mean everytime, there's reasons why this can't always happen. I don't base power off visual effects myself, like the fanboys who used it to say SSG is superior to SSB, except when I said that Goku powered up against Jiren after his fight with Anilaza, not that he was holding back before though.
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