Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 69

[AKM sama]

The point is:

Hit was strong enough to damage and utterly destroy Dyspo .

Golden Freeza was strong enough to do the same.

While SSG Goku was not.

 

[ByAsura]

That was while catching him off guard with Timeskip. Goku still traded blows with Dyspo, something that Hit also did when adapting, and actually did hurt him at one point when he punted him away, still making SSG comparable to a stronger Hit. I do believe SSG is weaker now, as he couldn't fight as well as that Hit, but they're in the same league.

 

[AKM sama]

It doesn't matter if he used time-skip. The point I'm trying to get across is:

Hit is strong enough to hurt Dyspo pretty bad.

While, apart from the very first single scene, SSG Goku was beaten by a pretty chill Dyspo and couldn't do any harm to him. He even had to use SSB because SSG was not able to do anything significant.

It makes it clear that Hit > SSG.

 

[TheRustyOne]

We saw that Golden Frieza who is equal to SSB Goku, was faster and far stronger than Dyspo. Something Hit never showed till his fight with Jiren and started adapting. Hit was unable to keep up with Dyspo while Golden Frieza outpace him casually.

Normal Dyspo was unable to hurt Golden Frieza and even Final Form Frieza wasn't that bother by his attacks. However Hit found that Dyspo's attacks were strong, and was visibly injured.

SSG Goku could send Dyspo flying with one kick and catched the punch that Dyspo was going to use to finish Hit off. To say SSG Goku isn't comparable to Dyspo is ludicrous.

Hit was able to beat Dyspo do to his adapting and tricking his ears. He wasn't massively stronger than Dyspo, he just found a way to get pass his speed.

SSG Goku was able to damage and take hits from someone who gave a stronger Hit trouble. This implies that ToP SSG Goku being at least just as strong as Future Trunks Arc SSB Goku.

 

[ByAsura]

@AKM The point I was trying to get across is that they're relative, although I admit it was in the later half of the discussion that I said they weren't necessarily equal. Also, the only reason Goku couldn't inflict such damage is because he couldn't catch him by surprise, which is what Time Skip does. Hit even shows at one point that his intangibility, a technique he used to pummel Dyspo, still caught him off guard even before he'd adapted to Dyspo's moves.

"SSG Goku was beaten by a pretty chill Dyspo", like Hit before he adapted, meaning SSG is at least as strong as SSB in the previous arc.

It makes it clear that he's stronger after adapting, but Hit put up an even worse fight than SSG Goku before he did so. Hit was even completely debilitated from just one of his attacks. Goku even states "You're really fast [Dyspo]. I see why Hit was having trouble."

Also, Goku overwhelmed Dyspo and used Blue to attack and gain an advantage after he read his moments. Let me also remind you (sorry if that sounded in anyway passive agressive) that SSB Goku easily tanked and destroyed Kunshi's mines, which Hit couldn't do and had to use his shockwaves.

Even if you don't agree, Goku should still be stronger regardless, since he did this all in a form significantly weaker than Blue.

 

[AKM sama]

The only reason Goku faired better than Hit is because Goku read Dyspo's movements and was using SSB in between. Not because his SSG is that strong.

The point still stands:

Hit is strong enough to damage Dyspo pretty bad.

Golden Freeza is strong enough to do the same.

SSG Goku never damaged Dyspo (apart from the single scene which could be considered outlier).

Apart from that single scene, there was one scene where Dyspo punched SSG in the face and after that Goku started switching to SSB. Do you have any other evidence which directly shows that SSG is relative to Hit? Because that one scene is not enough.

 

[ByAsura]

There's no indication that he did that in the scene here, and actually contradicts it since he reacts after Light Bullet. Also, yes it's because SSG is that strong, if it wasn't he couldn't withstand Dyspo's attacks.

After adapting.

A being who is significantly stronger than Dyspo, Hit, and comparable to SSB. SSB is also superior to Hit itself, as I explained with Kunshi's mines and general powerscaling.

It's not an outlier, Goku just could not hit him after, and him actually catching a punch designed to beat Hit happens right before that.

His durability is shown to scale to Hit before he adapted throughout the fight, as Hit gets debilitated in one attack, whereas Goku takes multiple with much less damage. Durability = AP. He also still put up a significantly better fight than Hit before he adapted to Dyspo. Hit also doesn't want to go into Kunshi's minefield even after he adapted, which he heavily implied could hurt SSG Goku.

 

[AKM sama]

Again, is there any evidence that Goku was withstanding those attacks while in SSG? Because he started switching to SSB before that, and most probably continued switching to SSB at the instants of taking those hits.

 

[ByAsura]

We see Goku take several attacks from Dyspo as SSG before he even starts switching, catching a punch is also durability, and, like I said (I'm feeling like a broken record now), Hit took much more damage from those hits before he adapted. Whis states that he becomes SSB to maximise his speed and power when attacking, he doesn't state he amplifies his durability to tank hits. He most probably did not, since he's conserving power. Goku is also SSG right after getting smashed through some arena.

 

[AKM sama]

"We see Goku take several attacks from Dyspo as SSG"

No, only one on-screen. After the first scene.

" Whis states that he becomes SSB to maximise his speed and power when attacking"

Whis' statement was only for the first time Goku turned SSB to attack, not for the entirety of the fight. And even then, Dyspo was the one attacking first when Goku switched. If the opponent is fast, you can only attack while the opponent comes close to attack you. Goku did both at that instant.

Goku appearing as SSG after getting smashed through some rocks doesn't mean he didn't turn SSB in the instant of attacking/defending, when that's literally what he is doing to conserve stamina.

 

[ByAsura]

Goku catches Dyspo's punch capable of defeating Hit, which requires durability, withstands a punch to the face, and takes being knocked through Katchi Katchin. There's also when Hit doesn't go into a minefield that he implies would hurt SSG Goku, and it was SSG since that was the form Goku had at the time. That's 2 onscreen, 1 offscreen, and 1 possible statement.

That's true. The only time he did that was after he read Dyspo's Light Bullet since it's linear, there's no idication he can do it every time, especially since Goku can't react to it. There's also nothing to say it's like the manga where it can be constant in rapid succession for many minutes.

 

[AKM sama]

"Goku catches Dyspo's punch capable of defeating Hit"

That's one. Most likely outlier.

"withstands a punch to the face"

He was thrown back. That's not a feat when Hit withstood several.

"takes being knocked through Katchi Katchin"

Katchi Katchin doesn't hurt SSG tiers and he was probably switching before being pushed through them.

"There's also when Hit doesn't go into a minefield that he implies would hurt SSG Goku"

Hit did not have to go through a mine-field when he can hurt Kunshi easily while standing there. Did Hit say that mine field would hurt him? No.

Anyway, I'm dropping this now.

 

[ByAsura]

That's just going completely in circles at this point and not supported by the episode since Goku is only overpowered with Light Bullet and had previously intercepted Dyspo, and kicked him away just after, visibly and audibly causing Dyspo pain. Why would Dyspo use Light Bullet against a significantly weaker opponent?

Hit was completely debilitated by 1 punch and thrown back even further, showing visible scratch marks, whereas Goku had none. This is, of course, before he adapted.

He was hit into it by Dyspo.

That's completely besides the point and actually goes in my favour. Kunshi stated it would despite having his blasts blocked earlier by Hit, and he did not enter the minefield.

 

[BlackeJan]

I think it was also said that Hit got stronger at the start of the ToP arc iirc (think Goku said it)

 

[ByAsura]

He said it after the fight with Dyspo.

 

[HrishikeshM]

Sorry I don't think Goku is missing keys. Although I think his profile needs some fixing to do with the speed ratings and rearranging his powers and abilities. His BoG arc justification also needs to be improved. I also made a blog explaining the BoG arc scaling in detail.
I am planning to take care of it by the end of November. I also have to make a similar blog about the ToP scaling.

can you give a link to that blog?

 

[HrishikeshM]

according to the new trailer which forms of broly will be 3-a and low 2-c? i think his super saiyan and berserker forms are definitely low 2-c but what about his base form......and what about gogeta.....will he be 3-a or low 2-c?

 

[Peter1129]

Broly is Low 2-C even in Base. Same with Gogeta if he appears in the movie.

 

[AKM sama]

can you give a link to that blog?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AKM_sama/Dragon_Ball_Super:_Battle_of_Gods

 

[ZERO7772]

Broly is Low 2-C even in Base. Same with Gogeta if he appears in the movie.

How would base Broly compare to Kale SSB2?

 

[Peter1129]

Why compare Base Broly to LSS2 Kale when he's arguably even stronger than LSS2 Kefla?

 

[ZERO7772]

Why compare Base Broly to LSS2 Kale when he's arguably even stronger than LSS2 Kefla?

how again?

 

[ZERO7772]

BTW, do we know why they are skipping SSBKK and SSBE? I was never fan of those forms but it seems the movie doesn't even acknowledge them.

 

[KLOL506]

Why compare Base Broly to LSS2 Kale when he's arguably even stronger than LSS2 Kefla?

how again?

Base Broly duked it out with Whis in the trailer.

 

[LightinAnt]

Well its not because of it following the manga continuity since the manga CSSB has no aura and Vegeta unlocked a form in that too.

 

[Peter1129]

@ZERO7772 Post-ToP SSG is unquantifiably stronger than Post-2nd UIS SSB which is stronger than the First UIS. Base Broly effortlessly stomped Post-ToP SSG Goku and Vegeta and was supposedly keeping up with Post-ToP SSB Goku in the trailers. So right now Base Broly is somewhere between massively stronger than the First UIS and Post-2nd UIS SSBKK which is stronger than LSS2 Kefla. Because Post-ToP SSB is also ridiculously stronger than Post-2nd UIS SSBKK.

 

[Dark649]

I will wait for the movie to air before sharing my opinion, in the meantime i made these.

 

[ZERO7772]

>Post-ToP SSG is unquantifiably stronger than Post-2nd UIS SSB\

How do you know that? I mean, we don't know how much stronger they got after the ToP. All we know is that Post 2nd UIS SSB is stronger than first UIS no?

 

[Peter1129]

Well the after the First UIS Goku's SSG form became stronger than his SSBKK as he managed to effortlessly stomp LSS2 Kale while still being fatigued. When previously LSS1 Kale stomped his SSB form and made SSB and SSBKK Lvl characters like Toppo and Vegeta comment on her power. And he also matched LSS1 Kefla who was stated by Whis to be on par with the Spirit Bomb with SSBKK.

After the Second UIS Goku was able to make Jiren use more energy than he did against the First UIS with SSB. And his SSBKK became stronger than the Second UIS as he could match Serious Jiren who was stronger than all previous enemies in the tournament including LSS2 Kefla.

After the Third UIS and the Complete UI Goku got the biggest boost of all. His heavily weakened Base form alone is now stronger than Android 17 and Golden Frieza combined. So it's not hard to believe that Post-ToP SSG is now far stronger than his previous SSB considering how the final boost made his base form massively stronger than a SSBKK Lvl and a SSB Lvl character combined.

 

[ZERO7772]

>SSG form became stronger than his SSBKK as he managed to effortlessly stomp LSS2 Kale while still being fatigued

No? I mean sure he's stronger than Pr-UIS SSB but no reason to include SSBKK as well and SSG wasn't really stomping LSSJ2 Kale he was just gaining the edge on her. She was holding her own more or less.

>After the Second UIS Goku was able to make Jiren use more energy than he did against the First UIS. And his SSBKK became stronger than the Second UIS.

Fair enough

>His heavily weakened Base form alone is now stronger than Android 17 and Golden Frieza combined.

I .... don't really buy this. You are not wrong in a way but base Frieza was fighting power up Jiren after words when his Golden form wasn't able to hold off one blast from weaker Jiren just moment ago.

Hene why I don't trust power scaling in this scene it was just all over the place.

 

[Peter1129]

Post-UIS SSG Goku was able to keep up with and overwhelm LSS2 Kale who is far more powerful than her LSS1 form that stomped his SSB form and had SSBKK Lvl characters like Base Toppo worried.

Base Frieza keeping up with Jiren after he has gotten over his issues is an obvious outlier considering how just a couple of seconds ago he was getting overpowered by this Jiren in his Golden form even with Android 17's help.

 

[ZERO7772]

Goku was barely able to move. We keep trying to justify this bad writing with "Zenkai" and "UIS boost" but nothing in the show really suggest that he got that much stronger when they very next scene contradict what we see from base Goku and everyone in general.

Base Goku giving bigger boost than Frieza and #17 is the real outlier here imo.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Well... LSSJ1 Kale actually got far more powerful in-between... Remember her power up before she got calmed, then became LSSJ2 ? Well, that specific form stated she was much much stronger than then before. Then she becam LSS2 .

This power-up specifically . I would say in between LSSJ1 and LSSJ2, she got at least around 20x stronger, if not far higher based on Jiren's reaction.

 

[Peter1129]

Why is that an outlier? We have seen how big the previous UIS boost were. So what's so outliery about his base form becoming stronger than his previous SSBKK when he activated both Ultra Instinct Sign and the Complete Ultra Instinct.

 

[Peter1129]

Goku's Base form becoming that much stronger isn't as inconsistent as Base Frieza being able to keep up with a character that can easily overpower his Golden form just a few seconds ago since one of them has a power boost to justify it while the other doesn't.

 

[ZERO7772]

Base Frieza actually keeping up wit powered up Jiren despite him losing to a weaker Jiren in his Golden form and Android 17 knocking Jiren around with his blasts is what suggest this scene is BS imo. You want to justify everything the sayians pull with Zenkai and everything else everyone do as outlier which is fine from one stand point.

I simply refuse to believe that half-dead Goku who can barely go SSJ is stronger 48 min ago SSB self.

 

[Peter1129]

Go and watch the scene with Vegeta talking about how saiyans constantly breaking their limit in the short time of 48 minutes in the tournament. Goku has an actual justification of constantly breaking his limits with Ultra Instinct not zenkai.

 

[ZERO7772]

About Kale: including SSBKK is still a assumption and I would like to low ball everything just to be safe. SSB Vegeta was matching Toppo just fine and 2 SSB characters teaming up on him took him down so I wouldn't really call him SSBKK level character. Goku did want to use KK on him but judging from what we saw from Toppo it won't be anything more than SSBKKx2

 

[ZERO7772]

Go and watch the scene with Vegeta talking about how saiyans constantly breaking their limit in the short time of 48 minutes in the tournament. Goku has an actual justification of constantly breaking his limits with Ultra Instinct not zenkai.

Of course he got much stronger through the ToP I am not denying that but to suggest he's thousands times stronger is just far fetched in my opinion and like I said that scene isn't exactly reliable because it mess around with all the characters power levels.

 

[Peter1129]

Vegeta was matching Base Toppo when he was still saving strength for the final round against the last survivors. And even than Vegeta was huffing when Toppo literally said is that all you've got with no damage on him. Android 17 is by no means just SSB lvl. He was shown to be nearly as strong as Base Toppo in the Cell vs Gohan esque beam struggle. He was also able to hold back Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha with just one hand after he dropped his barrier when Toppo punched him. Base Toppo was also able to no sell Ultimate Gohan a SSB lvl characters Kamehameha just prior to this. Goku using SSBKK is also more evidence to justify Base Toppo being stronger than SSB and likely at least SSBKKx2 lvl.