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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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Jiren was always beaten by Broly
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Oh dear. I know some people will be pissed at this news.
Wait what ? When was Broly comparable to the current top tiers in the manga ? I know he’s implied to have fought Gohan but I thought he got stomped.
I don’t really have an opinion on it. Everyone’s free to come up with their own interpretations of things. I just feel it’s an interesting perspectives.
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This is confirmed in the anime and manga, where Piccolo and Gohan reached Goku's level, according to the last mention of the Akira, if Cell Max had been complete he would be on Broly's level, and Goku outplayed Jiren in the tournament by transforming into Superior Instinct (but didn't drop out of the tournament to win )
So anyone above Goku is superior to Jiren
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He wouldn't. I think he would be too beholden to his own ideas of what Dragon Ball should be-As a lifelong fan turned friend (and coworker) of Toriyama Sensei, which would impede his ability to write for the characters. Kind of like how Deku couldn't master One For All because he saw it as "an external gift" from a "vastly better/superior source to himself' and thus could not "integrate" with the Quirk in the way his Predecessors could. The same applies to Oda.
And this isn't me saying they're bad-No, they're phenomenal at what they do. But they've gone on record to say they IDOLIZE Toriyama-Sensei, and it's even been stated by a former close artist that worked on One Piece alongside Oda that Oda keeps Dragon Ball in mind when writing everything to, in Oda's words, "subvert it with more complexity." As in, he has a PRECONCEIVED NOTION of what Dragon Ball IS and PURPOSELY WRITES AROUND THAT. Which makes total sense, because when you read his interviews, you SOON REALIZE he calls Toriyama-Sensei GOD-SENSEI very consistently. And Kishimoto, while not to the same degree, openly claims to have let Dragon Ball influence his choices as well, and also calls Toriyama God-Sensei.
These are not bad traits to have as a general person, but it is bad when you're trying to write Dragon Ball authentically. I think Toyotarou is the perfect person for the job not JUST because Toriyama chose him, but because he was one of the only people to see Toriyama behind the mask of his "I'm a lazy cool guy." Toyotarou has even gone on record to state he thinks Toriyama is lying about Goku's "non-heroic" self, because he thinks Toriyama secretly wants to keep that trait of himself (and Goku) hidden. Simiarly, he thinks Toriyama lied about "using SSJ to remove having to color hair," because if you actually look at the art, the shirt, belt, backgrounds, and Frieza's body crystal s(now that Goku's orange Gi is gone) means that Toriyama has equal to MORE to color in than he did before, and believes Tori claims otherwise to be humble. Kishi nor Oda probably would never think of this, because they respect him too much.
Whereas Toyo has gotten a much deeper understanding of Toriyama and his habits, and can much more deeply relate not just to his workflow/ideas (and thus make more Dragon Ball that is authentic and genuine), but also capable of moving in directions Toriyama would NOT go to further benefit the story. Good examples of this is when Toriyama outright said that Koyama's take on Goku's father was a masterful story that HE could NEVER write because of his much more positive and upbeat attitude and nature as a storyteller. He would never capture that tragedy, and we've seen with Minus and Granolah he was 100% correct. Which tells me that while Toriyama definitely knows Dragon Ball BEST and will ALWAYS have, will, and continue to be (in the afterlife) teller of Dragon Ball stories, he himself freely understands and admits his scope of writing is not all encompassing, can be flawed, and ultimately cannot fully engross everything Dragon Ball is and can be. But Toyo, if he learns the right lessons, (and given his own ideas, like making a spinoff Trunks Manga), and gets fully into his groove, COULD do what Toriyama did and MORE.
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Blud cooked.
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"Gohan Beast is just Blue level" mfs right now:
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Apparently it's a bit less clear cut. Gohan punches Goku out of UI, then there's some dialogue before Goku goes back into UI for more fighting that ends inconclusively.
Broly then goes in for a fight on Goku's recommendation. They're pretty even, Broly doing better at first but Gohan gets the last blow when Vegeta interrupts and goes at Gohan. Goten and Trunks go after Broly.
Goku gets pumped and then joins in again and everyone ends up in base, tired.
Leaker's take is Gohan = Broly, Goku and Vegeta = but a bit below them, but the fightd are inconclusive and apparently Vegeta doesn't go UE. Also Beast is apparently faster than UI.
Overall, the saiyans are kinda just comparable overall.
But I don't know how reliable this guy is.
Broly then goes in for a fight on Goku's recommendation. They're pretty even, Broly doing better at first but Gohan gets the last blow when Vegeta interrupts and goes at Gohan. Goten and Trunks go after Broly.
Goku gets pumped and then joins in again and everyone ends up in base, tired.
Leaker's take is Gohan = Broly, Goku and Vegeta = but a bit below them, but the fightd are inconclusive and apparently Vegeta doesn't go UE. Also Beast is apparently faster than UI.
Overall, the saiyans are kinda just comparable overall.
But I don't know how reliable this guy is.
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Both. Broly’s forms do not naturally come to him like other Saiyans (cannot transform at will), can alter themselves (Oozaru becoming Ikari and his SSJ going green), and more, but he’s also excessively strong in his base form (basic training was noted to be worthless in Broly because Paragus sucks, lmao, so his power basically was in perpetual {stagnant} growth until he met Goku and Vegeta—Who then pushed him so hard his base state became only 10x weaker than SSG Vegeta {Oozaru/Ikari Multiplier}, until he eventually was = to SSB Goku, {meaning should only be 10x weaker than SSB Goku}). That is an egregiously powerful base form.
These two factors make Broly virtually monolithic and singular amongst the Saiyan Race, similar to Kale and the Broly of the past continuity.
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That's insane, I can't even imagine what Broly would be like if he reached a new phase, just imagine broly SSJB. Do you think something like this will happen?
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I never understood this take about hakai
Hakai has 2 feats against slump xters, it erased one and would have erased the other. And it's EE on a person, so it's not power, it's hax, there will be no tier change or whatever with it, hakai will simply have a 5d potency hax and all who have resisted it would have the resistance
POD isn't ki, you resist it or you don't
When has it ever been used against people at that level of slump xters or failed in the first place before that? Only thing anyone has resisted is EOD, and lower grade versions of it
And mind you, Beerus erasing Mashirito was accepted, it only went to 5d because of the upgrade, and then it suddenly became an outlier
He got a stomach ache from the food created by the machine, either his body didn't agree with the food or thr machine's toon force overcame his resistance
ProudLearner
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SirAlex09
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We know for sure that UI sign is equal to 40x SSJB because Kefla (L-)SSJ was equal to SSJBK x20 and UI Sign was equal to SSJ2 Kefla (before she broly-zenkai'd herself to being capable of oneshotting him)
MUI therefore has to be more than 50x SSJB but that would be strictly Anime-only
SirAlex09
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Oh another interesting spoiler: Gohan explained to Goku that he controls his beast form "by raising his Ki to the maximum where he is about to snap and then control it." Broly witnesses this and is actually the one to interrupt the spar to fight Gohan himself. He basically applies the same principal to control his own power and fight on par with Gohan. ( He makes him sweat....One Piece sweatscaling can be applied here)
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Rip the copers saying Gohan Beast negs Broly xd.
SirAlex09
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hahahahah
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So seems like broly basically copied beat mechanism and applied it to his ssj to control it, it also seems like he's on par, if not slightly above beast Gohan, which means his fpssj form is even beyond that, if he's capable of accessing it.
Spinoirr
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Remember this is normal ssj, not his wrathful + super saiyan version as his hair is different
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His wraith form doesn't seem to exist in the manga, his base is just that strong, the shot of him fighting SSB Goku and Vegeta was in his base iirc
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He apparently just tossed Broly, and Beerus claims Gohan maintains superiority, so even though Broly is able to momentarily push back as this Controlled SSJ (which inherently boosts their power, see: Kale), Gohan is still the stronger fighter (by an unknown amount). Essentially, Gohan by the end of the Chapter is at least soft confirmed to be the strongest fighter. Though, given they’re all still in the same realm, that may put him beneath Black Frieza.
We’ll have too see how this all shapes out after the hiatus.
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In the Broly Ani-Comic it exists, so presumably that is there. It doesn’t matter regardless, though, because a Controlled LSSJ > Ikari LSSJ.
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All Beerus said was that Gohan had more control over his powers than broke did his, which means Gohan has the edge in skill, which would have been obvious from the start.
Physically speaking, broly seemed to be top, but is still rough around the edges as he's basically a newbie super Saiyan
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Goku is so forgetful, he even forgot that his own granddaughter exists, lol
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Based on the scans, it’s referring to Gohan having more control than Broly, not that Gohan is straight up stronger than Broly. And the scans seems to hint they are at least relative.
The main question I have though is: Is Broly’s Super Saiyan Controlled CSSJ, or a regular Super Saiyan. Beerus refers to it as just a Super Saiyan, and so does Gohan, with the only difference Gohan makes is that his Super Saiyan is stronger than anyone else’s and that’s it. He doesn’t mention any difference in its appearance or anything like that.
The main question I have though is: Is Broly’s Super Saiyan Controlled CSSJ, or a regular Super Saiyan. Beerus refers to it as just a Super Saiyan, and so does Gohan, with the only difference Gohan makes is that his Super Saiyan is stronger than anyone else’s and that’s it. He doesn’t mention any difference in its appearance or anything like that.
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Gohan says it's "different" not stronger, but he doesn't get any more specific than that, so unclear.
That said, I imagine that it's a Controlled version of his INITIAL Super Saiyan from the Broly movie, not his Legendary Super Saiyan form.
Because, as much as I hate to say it, Legendary Super Saiyan doens't exist in modern canon as an actual official form. Kale's is called SSJ (Berserk), Broly's is Super Saiyan (Full Power). Hell, we're even talking now about how Ikari seems to kinda sorta be involved in his version of SSJ. And unlike Z Broly, who could transform and moderate his forms at will (See Second Coming, the SSJ Form he used when he was given a Control Crown, etc.), these new generation LSSJs can't transform at will and have none of the traits the original one had outside of green hair (which wasn't even intended in DBS Broly and actually added in after, DBS Broly was just going to have an abnormally strong SSJ form, which you can see in basically every colored page of the DBS Manga with SSJ Broly in it-Yellow hair instead of just green), and an ever evolving power.
It's very likely, to me, that the term LSSJ was phased out in favor of maintaining the allure of Goku becoming the Legend on Namek, and Broly as some freak of nature (fitting his new Tarzan like backstory), that has nothing at all to do with the Mythos of the Saiyans. ESPECIALLY when you realize that apparently the Original Super Saiyan (Yamoshi) then became a wandering Spirit to find the Super Saiyan God (Goku). Meaning Greenie doesn't exist in any of the "Super" Saiyan Tales and Folklore compared to Toei/GT.
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Seems to just be regular, Beerus did point out that broly is basically newbie at it, I think Gohan was just shocked that a regular super Saiyan can be that strong
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Best case scenario, Goku with Ki Avatar > Gohan agenda
SirAlex09
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Bro gave up before accuracy drops so he doesn't get humiliatedBest case scenario, Goku with Ki Avatar > Gohan agenda
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Goku with superior instinct is so fast, his speed is able to teleport behind Gohan
