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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Was Broly's SSJ yellow or green? I'm not sure about the manga, especially since they don't differentiate SSJ from Broly to others (there's no such thing as Legendary SSJ, just SSJ)
 
RedReaper said:
Gohan says it's "different" not stronger, but he doesn't get any more specific than that, so unclear.

That said, I imagine that it's a Controlled version of his INITIAL Super Saiyan from the Broly movie, not his Legendary Super Saiyan form.

Because, as much as I hate to say it, Legendary Super Saiyan doens't exist in modern canon as an actual official form. Kale's is called SSJ (Berserk), Broly's is Super Saiyan (Full Power). Hell, we're even talking now about how Ikari seems to kinda sorta be involved in his version of SSJ. And unlike Z Broly, who could transform and moderate his forms at will (See Second Coming, the SSJ Form he used when he was given a Control Crown, etc.), these new generation LSSJs can't transform at will and have none of the traits the original one had outside of green hair (which wasn't even intended in DBS Broly and actually added in after, DBS Broly was just going to have an abnormally strong SSJ form, which you can see in basically every colored page of the DBS Manga with SSJ Broly in it-Yellow hair instead of just green), and an ever evolving power.

It's very likely, to me, that the term LSSJ was phased out in favor of maintaining the allure of Goku becoming the Legend on Namek, and Broly as some freak of nature (fitting his new Tarzan like backstory), that has nothing at all to do with the Mythos of the Saiyans. ESPECIALLY when you realize that apparently the Original Super Saiyan (Yamoshi) then became a wandering Spirit to find the Super Saiyan God (Goku). Meaning Greenie doesn't exist in any of the "Super" Saiyan Tales and Folklore compared to Toei/GT.
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image.png
 
Why can't Super Shenron manipulate reality on a 1-C scale? In the anime it is mentioned that he can bring back all the Universes, and we already know that Zeno can erase a timeline completely, while Super Shenron is capable of restoring all 12 Universes, it is said by Zeno that his potential for manipulating reality there is no limit to what he can do.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Why can't Super Shenron manipulate reality on a 1-C scale? In the anime it is mentioned that he can bring back all the Universes, and we already know that Zeno can erase a timeline completely, while Super Shenron is capable of restoring all 12 Universes,
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Yes, he can restore universes, this ins´t Low 1-C
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
it is said by Zeno that his potential for manipulating reality there is no limit to what he can do.
Click to expand...
No limits fallacy
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
image.png
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It was considered SSJ Full Power, in these (1) promos (2). This fact is doubled down on in their games, like Dragon Ball Legends, (something continued in XV2 and Dokkan {as an active skill}), their action figures, (directly sourced by Bandai as “Bandai Hobby”), it’s even outright labeled such by Shintani in standard conversation. It’s not called LSSJ by anyone but the audience and those who have the meta contextual knowledge that it’s LSSJ (green hair, big muscles, unlimited power), with a new, worse name.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
The timeline is made up of these 12 Universes, if he manages to restore these 12 Universes, he's restoring a timeline.
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No? He is just restoring the normal universes, not the higher time dimension that encompass them

LuffyRuffy46307 said:
No, it's not, it's said several times in the book, it would only be fallacious if there were a contradiction.
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That´s not how a fallacy works, Super Shenron was stated to "not have limits" and, according to our fallacies page:

"No limits Fallacy is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits, then it has none"
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
No? He is just restoring the normal universes, not the higher time dimension that encompass them
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He is quoted as being able to restore everything at once, there is not even a limit for him
Accelerated_Evolution said:
That´s not how a fallacy works, Super Shenron was stated to "not have limits" and, according to our fallacies page:

"No limits Fallacy is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits, then it has none"
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Fallacies being cited several times in the work?
 
RedReaper said:
It was considered SSJ Full Power, in these (1) promos (2). This fact is doubled down on in their games, like Dragon Ball Legends, (something continued in XV2 and Dokkan {as an active skill}), their action figures, (directly sourced by Bandai as “Bandai Hobby”), it’s even outright labeled such by Shintani in standard conversation. It’s not called LSSJ by anyone but the audience and those who have the meta contextual knowledge that it’s LSSJ (green hair, big muscles, unlimited power), with a new, worse name.
Click to expand...
Full Power Super Saiyan*, I never denied the fact that Broly’s green haired form is called Full Power Super Saiyan, but I was merely sending a scan showing that it has been called “Legendary Super Saiyan” along “with Full Power Super Saiyan“ in promotional material. So that it was still valid to call the form either name.

Either way, it’s stated that Broly and Kale could be the Legendary Super Saiyan in the movie and manga respectfully even if you don’t wanna call the form that.
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Scan?


No, this one of the few cases, don´t try to make yourself the victim
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Of course, that's when it's been confirmed several times that it's capable of fulfilling any wish in the multiverse, but let's limit it because it is.



It's us affirmed by the existence that knows the multiverse best, Zeno



It's even confirmed by the Daishinkan



It is affirmed by the Zuno that he is omniscient and can fulfill any wish



How is that fallacious?
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Of course, that's when it's been confirmed several times that it's capable of fulfilling any wish in the multiverse, but let's limit it because it is.



It's us affirmed by the existence that knows the multiverse best, Zeno



It's even confirmed by the Daishinkan



It is affirmed by the Zuno that he is omniscient and can fulfill any wish



How is that fallacious?
Click to expand...

"No limits Fallacy is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits, then it has none"

LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Now the work has become Greek mythology that loves hyperbole and fallacies 🙃
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It's one of the few times where DB used a fallacy, don't try to victimize yourself²
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Of course, that's when it's been confirmed several times that it's capable of fulfilling any wish in the multiverse, but let's limit it because it is.



It's us affirmed by the existence that knows the multiverse best, Zeno



It's even confirmed by the Daishinkan



It is affirmed by the Zuno that he is omniscient and can fulfill any wish



How is that fallacious?
Click to expand...

1 Zuno is not omniscient since he didn't knew who Zamasu was when he went there to ask him about the super dragon balls

2 if you really want to go to the boat about him "being able to do anything" then why stop at tier 1? make him tier 0 as he can do "anything"

3 him being able to do literally anything is contradicted by the other bajilion statements about Zeno being impossible to be defeated no matter who it is, which includes Super Shenron, aka he can't do anything
 
I think the argument Luffy's trying to make is that Super Shenron should scale to Zeno's level since even Zeno believes Super Shenron to be capable of granting any wish. It's not terrible reasoning for him to be Low 1-C. I'm not personally opposed to it, but you'll probably need something stronger than Zeno's word to get that through a CRT here.
 
Roun12 said:
I think the argument Luffy's trying to make is that Super Shenron should scale to Zeno's level since even Zeno believes Super Shenron to be capable of granting any wish. It's not terrible reasoning for him to be Low 1-C. I'm not personally opposed to it, but you'll probably need something stronger than Zeno's word to get that through a CRT here.
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Everything is already in the plans, I'm just heating up the grill.
 
Btw who is going to upgrade DBS manga from chapter 103? Base Broly is now ultimate Gohan tier who is SSB tier and SSJ Broly~Beast Gohan. Meaning Broly is a walking beast just in base.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Full Power Super Saiyan*, I never denied the fact that Broly’s green haired form is called Full Power Super Saiyan, but I was merely sending a scan showing that it has been called “Legendary Super Saiyan” along “with Full Power Super Saiyan“ in promotional material. So that it was still valid to call the form either name.

Either way, it’s stated that Broly and Kale could be the Legendary Super Saiyan in the movie and manga respectfully even if you don’t wanna call the form that.
Click to expand...
Well of course. I’m not saying it’s never been called LSSJ before—But the best we get is like, a few times in promos, and often not the more reputable ones. And yeah it is called Legendary Super Saiyan sometimes, but that’s not what it is in story. For example, in the (Subbed) DBS Anime, Vegeta {when talking about LSSJ Kale} suggests that it’s simply “A Saiyan’s True Form.” I don’t recall Broly ever being mentioned to potentially be the Legend in film, but even if it was by like, Vegeta (who as established on Namek has no idea what one actually is), he’d be wrong.

The Legendary Super Saiyan in the Super Continuity was a regular ol’ Super Saiyan who died in vain and then wandered the Universe as a Spirit searching for a Saviour, the Super Saiyan God. There IS no “reoccurring 1000 years monster” in U7. According to Toriyama, there’s just Super Saiyan—Which is why when it was made for the film, there WASN’T a green haired form. Toriyama just doesn’t have it existing. Shintani made it up because he wanted to maintain the image of Z Broly he had in his head from his childhood.

The only in story place I can directly think of that actually cites the Legend is the Manga. And that was corrected in the re-release because it makes no sense. U6 has no Super Saiyan myth, after all, because it never existed in their reality. So the closest we get is “Demonic Saiyan” or “Legendary Saiyan.” And even then, at no point in the story are Broly and Kale ever referenced to be similar, even when they OBVIOUSLY are.

What I mean to say is that Broly isn’t the LSSJ. He has a form that is LSSJ in visuals only, and if referenced, only in light of meta-aware tertiary canon. There is no legendary monster—Just ordinary Super Saiyan. Any reference to a monster was a warped retelling of Yamoshi. And even when there is, Broly isn’t connected to it in any way. Only Kale, and given there’s no such thing as SSJ in U6, likely not LSSJ, but a separate phenomenon entirely. Even if it was the same, (and just what U6 called LSSJs because they didn’t know better) it still wouldn’t include DBS Broly at all—Who is the main point.

Edit: Also, Broly’s form would be Super Saiyan (Full Power), {as annotated in all games} because Grade 4 is already called Full Power Super Saiyan.
 
I think Broly getting called Full Power Super Saiyan is fine because the idea of Grade 4 was being phased out by the 7th Daizenshuu since it only mentions grade 2 and 3, which makes sense cause it's just mastered Grade 1, it doesn't actually increase your power like the 2nd and 3rd grades.
 
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