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Super Saiyan 3 is not a very well thought-out transformation. It's just "beyond Super Saiyan but again because why not"
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
SirAlex09
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Basically any form beyond SSJ in Z
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Well Grade 2/3 are fine enough I suppose, SSJ2 is hard carried by Gohan's character arc and is otherwise such a nothing transformation tbh
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Also people are allowed to defend whatever writing they want, no need to blow a gasket over it
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I'd say SSJ4 and Ultra Instinct are both actually better thought out as overall transformations than SSJ2 and especially SSJ3.
Like I said before, SSJ2 would pretty much be nothing without Gohan.
noninho
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Updated Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade
We had a thread about it a while ago, that has 17 pages and discussion about updates to the blog, as well as a conclusion that we should make another one with the new blog before a hard necro. I updated @Ednaxel2 's blog, grammatically (Mostly was adding "at least" to stuff), with his...
Anyone mind taking a look?
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The contrast between SSj4 and UI is kind of crazy though. One completely transcends their race and the characteristics associated with a saiyan while the other digs deeper into and embraces the saiyan's and their origins and uses it as their strength. Yet both are quite well done. If there's one thing I could commend super on, is making an original form that's often held up to the same regard as the original super saiyan, and I can see why.
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- The super sayayin 2 is fine, since they enter the room of time, the transformations begin to develop until they reach that
- Supersayayin 3 is a "I trained off camera in the heaven for 7 years and achieved this transformation... the fusion of these children will be achieved magically"...It is the definition of mediocre, technically there is nothing bad, but I can't say anything good about it apart from its design
- The god is a "magical ritual from a legend involving the first super sayayin" and is not deserved... but that's the point, Goku in the movie and in the anime admits to not liking it being obtained that way (ironically Vegeta having achieved it with effort is the plot problem, since we were never told that it was possible), It's decent as a point of development for Goku to put aside his pride for the sake of others (which is basically the development that Goku and Vegeta have in the movie), but it's still a mediocre transformation, bordering on bad.
- The blue is terrible in the movie, they try to give it some development in the anime but it basically becomes the standard (becoming a bad transformation), and the manga skips how they got it... and even then, is the better version, because it takes advantage of It is an inexistent space to make it a transformation that they must master through the universe saga 6 vs 7 and the Black saga
- Ultra Instinct is quite good, although its obtaining in the anime is horrible, but since then, they try to give it layers, unfortunately the granola one although it is good for the development of the saga of the true sayayin pride and all that... it has problems with the character already established in previous sagas, even so I would say that it is fine
- The ultraego is fine, it was just introduced and dominated extremely quickly.
- The explanation that was given to us apart from Orange Piccolo is not bad that I remember, and the manga had made it clear that the Namekean balls were formerly used as a kind of reward for worthy Namekean warriors or something like that, so I consider that it has some bases (probably accidental) acceptable
Now, if you want to talk about more transformations, the super saysyin rage from Black's arc, Vegeta's super sayayin evolution, and Gohan Beast exists
None of them have a clear explanation, and the evolution version of the manga originates from what is basically a tantrum, wt# Vegeta?
I didn't see GT other than part of the first saga (I think it came until shortly after the metal guy supposedly stronger than even Majon boo or something like that) So I won't comment on super sayayin 4
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Just like Goku, Frieza isn't above stealing techniques so who knows he might've pulled a Tien and trained with duplicates of himself?
That said I agree transformation/power boost fatigue is gradually getting even more ridiculous in DBS
Heck I don't even mind characters getting stronger (when it's not conspicuous power-scaling bait) just don't contradict or invalidate previous arcs/development.
DivineAura44
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Jiren solos, Broly was amped by rage.
Fezzih_007
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New CRT for Freeza Plot manipulation just dropped.
vsbattles.com
Freeza Plot Manipulation Addition
So, Freeza and Sayori have the same height, so that implies that they are the same person, and since Freeza can transfom himself, is not too hard to imagine he can tranform into Sayori. This is comfirmed from this ramdom guy of reddit. So i suggest we give all Sayori abilities to Freeza...
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I've come back just to defend SSJ3. It's a plot device there as an actual physical representation of Buu Saga's core lesson of no one person being the path to victory anymore. SSJ3 didn't do anything because it wasn't supposed to.
Also Super has its moments and I'm not gonna pretend it doesn't.
Also Super has its moments and I'm not gonna pretend it doesn't.
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Lastly, the concept of Goku trying to make UI his own is perfectly fine. He's done it with every form he's gotten, mastering Super Saiyan and creating Super Saiyan Blue then adding Kaioken onto of that.
However, pulling a random out of nowhere form that has some shaky ass justification is goofy.
Frieza getting as strong as he did so quickly is fine imo, he never trained a day in his life and was already as strong as he was.
However, pulling a random out of nowhere form that has some shaky ass justification is goofy.
Frieza getting as strong as he did so quickly is fine imo, he never trained a day in his life and was already as strong as he was.
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Now I leave, returning to the shadows from which I came.
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Looking like this... it's not so bad
The_Yellow_Topaz
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It has justification for existing at the very least, it fits a narrative at least. Goku trained 7 YEARS to achieve it and it only works by exerting the principles of Super Saiyan (boosting at an unthinkable cost of stamina) to their max, which was only possible BECAUSE Goku was in the afterlife which has no time flow.
Everything makes sense and is justifiable. If you're going to be as skeptical as that, then no form in any capacity has a "logical explanation to why it exists" because this is fiction.
I forgot the authority I had, I'm sorry Clover! oh my oh my /s
Nah, people are allowed to like trash, doesn't mean I can't complain about it, freedom goes both ways my friend.
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This is the manga version, putting the Kaioken on Blue only happens in the tournament of power, and they immediately tell you that it is wrong, after which it is never used again, everything else is valid if I see it
That would work if the previous arc wasn't the battle of the gods, literally Goku obtains a different type of ki (divine) and puts a transformation on another that was going to destroy the universe (even if you only take into account the movie, it is assumed that not even Vegito could against Bill)... then Frieza appears out of nowhere and it turns out that he is a prodigy who in four months creates a transformation that surpasses all that (depending on the version alone or with Tagoma, both are rare) that surpasses the Blue (not the same, he surpasses Blue, and is only defeated for making a mistake that he had already made in previous sagas, going to the minimum possibility of revenge on earth)
It's simply that the levels are too far apart, especially for someone who was given mechanical implants that apparently made him stronger (which he doesn't have now) and still received a beating from a super sayayin, and I may be remembering wrongly, but Did Frieza know about Goku's super sayayin god? I only remember them telling him that he defeated Buu.
Black Freeza is better for the simple fact that nothing is invented to justify the power up, but rather it uses bases that already exist in the manga (its potential, and the fact that planets have time rooms) to create a threat
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Oh it is not. It's absolutely wasted, used as a punching bag, with a stupid concept, and by having Vegeta literally faint from damage, it betrays the entire concept
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Holy shit that's actually a really perceptive way to look at it though, this slightly bumped up my respect for the Buu Saga.
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Again, the only transformations that deserve bullying are the Blue Evolution, the SSJ Rage and the Beast (although slightly less, because at least it has an explanation... bad, but it does) all the others have something that saves them or makes them worse. makes good directly
If I had to choose which one is worse... evolution manga (it's a damn tantrum, for the love of Zeno)
If I had to choose which one is worse... evolution manga (it's a damn tantrum, for the love of Zeno)
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SSJ Rage had so much narrative backing that was shot in the face by the lack of in universe explanation. Also I'm still fine with Frieza getting that strong. I'm gone for real this time.
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I know it's in reference to the manga iteration, but I actually quite love Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the anime for one reason: It's a form that was achieved through selfless intentions and IMO served as a way of showing how far Vegeta has come since his days of being a ruthless killer.
Most of Vegeta's transformations up until that point were either fueled by selfish desires (Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was triggered from a mixture of jealously and anger that he was weaker then a "low class" Saiyan like Goku who achieved a form thought to be myth before he did, and I don't think I need to clarify the intent behind Vegeta allowing himself to become a Majin) or was a result of his intensive training to begin with (Super Saiyan 2, God, Blue, etc). But what makes Evolution stand out in the best way possible is that he obtained it not from selfishness or training, but a desire to protect those he loves and to serve as proof of his promise to Cabba that he'll revive Universe 6 if it were erased during the tournament. In the anime, Evolution to me feels like a cultivation of decades of character development on Vegeta's part and cemented that he wasn't the ruthless and selfish killer that he was in the past but someone who uses his strength to fight for those he loves and values in his life.
Dragon Ball Super is a mess to be sure, and I don't think both the anime and the manga go above "decent" from my standards of quality, but its moments like that which help me remember why I fell in love with Dragon Ball in spite of its flaws and shortcomings.
Most of Vegeta's transformations up until that point were either fueled by selfish desires (Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was triggered from a mixture of jealously and anger that he was weaker then a "low class" Saiyan like Goku who achieved a form thought to be myth before he did, and I don't think I need to clarify the intent behind Vegeta allowing himself to become a Majin) or was a result of his intensive training to begin with (Super Saiyan 2, God, Blue, etc). But what makes Evolution stand out in the best way possible is that he obtained it not from selfishness or training, but a desire to protect those he loves and to serve as proof of his promise to Cabba that he'll revive Universe 6 if it were erased during the tournament. In the anime, Evolution to me feels like a cultivation of decades of character development on Vegeta's part and cemented that he wasn't the ruthless and selfish killer that he was in the past but someone who uses his strength to fight for those he loves and values in his life.
Dragon Ball Super is a mess to be sure, and I don't think both the anime and the manga go above "decent" from my standards of quality, but its moments like that which help me remember why I fell in love with Dragon Ball in spite of its flaws and shortcomings.
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Meh
That's the point, destructive thoughts increase Vegeta's power, which can also be achieved through taking damage.
Not really, it just shows us the limits of a transformation the way Vegeta uses it, despite getting stronger, he doesn't heal, the damage accumulates, and he will probably have to improve those aspects in future sagas, just as Goku had to train the ultra instinct
Also, the scene in which he faints is not bad, Gas literally looks overwhelmed and towards the end he was scared by Vegeta, if Vegeta had been able to endure more he may have won the fight alone. (It's also a decent way to make way for Goku to have his fight with Gas, not good, but decent)
Anyway, I said that is fine, not that it was good, I personally like the concept and I see the potential for the future (although they will probably leave it aside now that Gohan has been reintroduced to the greatest scales of power, and Broly exists )
Now, all this is based on my memories of that moment, I may be wrong in the concept or how it was executed, but I am not going to start rereading the saga for this comment, I just make it clear that it is my opinion with probable failures, and that we are all free to think as we want
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Hate to break it to you, but that bolded part… You made it up. SSJ3 is literally just stronger Super Saiyan with a stamina drain. That’s not even a unique thing either since Grade 3 exists. Nothing about “applying SSJ principles to their max” is stated in the series. You made that up to justify the form.
For all intents and purposes, it’s just SSJ Grade 3 without the muscle problem.
Incorrect. Super Saiyan, Gohan’s SSJ2, SSJ4, and Ultra Instinct are all great examples of forms that are perfectly justified in their existence. SSJ3 simply isn’t that.
I could say SSJ Blue is justified by being an application of Super Saiyan’s principles to divine ki, but I think we can both agree it’s far from a masterclass in transformation writing
I’m just asking you to not be rude about it. I hope that’s not too big an ask.
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In my opinion Super as part of the franchise has good high points, and low points that go to the bottom
I like it, but I think I was more interested when I read "the 7 deadly sins" than in the super manga (which is a manga with decent good points and bad points that go to the bottom, at least it was more consistent)
In the case of the anime, everything that has to do with Vegeta obtaining the transformation is good, reflecting well the character at that moment, but... it has no explanation, within the verse it has no logic
I don't have any major problems other than that, that's why I'm Bullying the Evolution of the manga and not the anime,
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Yup I kinda feel the same too, I even sometimes get a tingling sensation in my back like I can almost go "super".
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Yep, I love the moment, but it doesn't make sense, and for no reason does the transformation look like a fusion of blue with superayayin, which makes me hate it
Still, excellent moment
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Good transformation in the manga, not because it's good how they get it (because we don't even see it), but because of how they handle it afterwards.
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I just like how simple and clean it looks, personally
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All I’m saying is that SSJ3 would be torn to shreds if it was introduced in Super rather than Z
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Yeah, I don't know what's going on with the Revisionist History. SSJ2 is perfectly fine. As are SSJ Grade 2 and Grade 3, as they served as foreshadowing/precursors to the SSJ2 form Gohan takes, especially in providing the means of which Gohan's character arc is completed. It should also be noted this theme that Gohan undergoes is maintained in the Buu Saga for other SSJ2 users. Vegeta doesn't go SSJ2 (even though we know he has it) until after he self-destructs and completes his arc, and Goku doesn't go SSJ2 until he fights Vegeta and challenges him on his fall into Darkness (unless you want to count the Yakon "blip" as him actually transforming all the way for a fight), and to convince him to snap out of it.
SSJ3 is useless, yeah, but that was the narrative point. It's supposed to break the trend of "new threat, new form.," that had started to become a factor after Saiyan Saga (Kaioken {Saiyan Saga}, Super Saiyan {Frieza Saga}, Super Saiyan 2 {Cell Saga}), and establish that this Saga won't go the same as it previously did.
SSJ4, and Super Full Power Super Saiyan 4 (for reasons I'll soon go over) are peak.
SSG is also good, Narratively speaking, Goku is ascending not towards the Gods not because of his “unga bunga strength” or “big mad,” but because of his GOOD DEEDS. This theme is very prominent in Dragon Ball and is acknowledged twice—Once at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and yet again at the Tournament of Power. The opportunity to turn into a Super Saiyan God came not from strength, but from Goku’s ability to see kindness in others and grant them the ability to improve themselves as people, which they then do good on. It’s those people who then give him the power of a God.
SSB is ass.
SSJ Rage is ass.
SSBE is...eh. You could make the argument that Vegeta gets Super Saiyan Blue Evolution from his tapping into the good will (promises/dreams) of Saiyans from another Universe. His Student, who he lost. It’s made explicitly clear that, narratively, this form is the reward for not only having changed, but seeking to grant that change to other Saiyans. You can even add in his insecurity over the Saiyan race into this, as Zamasu steals the embodiment of the changes Saiyan (Goku) and perverts it—Hell, he becomes a better “Saiyan” than Goku or Vegeta were with it, and you can reason this shook his beliefs. Which in itself can be supported with the Bulma scene—Vegeta realizing that not even his wife views him as a solution to the problems, and instead relies on Goku. But at the same time I'm not very enamored with it, and it feels like it was just shoved in to give Vegeta a SSBKK equivalent.
SSBKK is Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken by tapping into the power given to him by a friend—Which he specifically met from his own good will, as that is what got him the opportunity to train in Otherworld with his physical body. It's basically the furthering of the themes of SSG. Very meh outside of hype factor.
UIO-MUI is peak.
SSJ3 is useless, yeah, but that was the narrative point. It's supposed to break the trend of "new threat, new form.," that had started to become a factor after Saiyan Saga (Kaioken {Saiyan Saga}, Super Saiyan {Frieza Saga}, Super Saiyan 2 {Cell Saga}), and establish that this Saga won't go the same as it previously did.
SSJ4, and Super Full Power Super Saiyan 4 (for reasons I'll soon go over) are peak.
SSG is also good, Narratively speaking, Goku is ascending not towards the Gods not because of his “unga bunga strength” or “big mad,” but because of his GOOD DEEDS. This theme is very prominent in Dragon Ball and is acknowledged twice—Once at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and yet again at the Tournament of Power. The opportunity to turn into a Super Saiyan God came not from strength, but from Goku’s ability to see kindness in others and grant them the ability to improve themselves as people, which they then do good on. It’s those people who then give him the power of a God.
SSB is ass.
SSJ Rage is ass.
SSBE is...eh. You could make the argument that Vegeta gets Super Saiyan Blue Evolution from his tapping into the good will (promises/dreams) of Saiyans from another Universe. His Student, who he lost. It’s made explicitly clear that, narratively, this form is the reward for not only having changed, but seeking to grant that change to other Saiyans. You can even add in his insecurity over the Saiyan race into this, as Zamasu steals the embodiment of the changes Saiyan (Goku) and perverts it—Hell, he becomes a better “Saiyan” than Goku or Vegeta were with it, and you can reason this shook his beliefs. Which in itself can be supported with the Bulma scene—Vegeta realizing that not even his wife views him as a solution to the problems, and instead relies on Goku. But at the same time I'm not very enamored with it, and it feels like it was just shoved in to give Vegeta a SSBKK equivalent.
SSBKK is Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken by tapping into the power given to him by a friend—Which he specifically met from his own good will, as that is what got him the opportunity to train in Otherworld with his physical body. It's basically the furthering of the themes of SSG. Very meh outside of hype factor.
UIO-MUI is peak.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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For the love of God.
This was also stated by Goku around chapter 490, but my internet is sucking some ass so I can't get it
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I’ll take the L on that one. I just don’t exactly think it needed to be a thingFor the love of God.
This was also stated by Goku around chapter 490, but my internet is sucking some ass so I can't get it
DivineAura44
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You'll never convince me Blue or 3 was a good form idgaf.
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Also I find it very reductive to consider anything less than universal praise of SSJ2/3 as “Revisionist History.” Are people not allowed to have dissenting opinions? And are people’s opinions not allowed to change? If all our opinions were the same and/or unchanging, debates would be pointless.
Frankly, I found some glaring issues in your justifications of those two forms in particular, but I’ve already said I’ll stop debating this topic. And I believe that’s for the best, given how this thread has largely shown itself to be unreceptive to dissenting opinions.
Edit: Shitty Internet made this post twice.
DivineAura44
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Brought down to good by the bitch ass design. I love that it tried to be different but
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