SirAlex09
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In the Video Vegeta didn't get Piccolo's tactic either and down talked this so he felt for it as well by extension
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
SirAlex09
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Gohan winning wouldn’t be bad, necessarily, but it does undo a lot of concerted effort to try to bring back Martial Arts as a focal point and how it can cross raw power gaps. We’ve seen this trend in many recent stories, (ToP, Broly, Moro, Gas/Granolah, and now seemingly Daima), so it would be several steps backwards. And a draw isn’t necessarily bad, but leaving it vague/a tie feels a lot like a cop out and contradicts what we’ve been told. It’s just a lot better and more consistent if Gohan is straight up the superior power while Goku is the superior martial artist and wins.
You have to remember, just having physical power isn’t enough to win in Dragon Ball. Your mind, body, and spirit ALL have to be in tune and honed. (Something mentioned by King Kai, Whis, and the Yardrats). Furthermore, you forget that Goku’s name doesn’t come from being “the strongest.” Sun Wukong is “the monkey enlightened to the Void.” It’s ultimately just superior in writing to maintain that stance.
DivineAura44
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Have you ever heard of "puncher's chance"?
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You mean a lucky shot/punch?
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My ideal world would be, once Super is finished as a product, that Toei decides to make a chimera of both versions, taking the best of each one and eliminating the problems they have (because both versions stand out for the amount of right and wrongs that they have, but let's be honest, it's impossible)
DivineAura44
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Goku can control the match and still lose.
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Not to hate, but I had already written this and I don't want to waste it, so here it goes:
At least the manga has the excuse that it focused so little on Gohan, that its retcon is almost irrelevant (with the exception of the Moro saga)
but it's not like that's a good thing, because prior to the Tournament of power arc and Moro, Gohan was nothing in the manga
Gohan in the super manga
The beginning of his development is cut (No resurrection of F), in the U7 vs U6 saga he is only mentioned and Goku shows no respect for his profession, Black saga... an extra chapter saying that he trains every week in Vegeta's gravity chamber and in the tournament of power... well basically nothing, he faces Kefla, she asks him if he won't become a super sayayin and Gohan responds that he wants to follow his own path... without anything that he backed it up, basically empty words.
Moro Saga, he appears to save Piccolo, he shows us that they have been trained with Piccolo and knows all his movements (something that is also ignored in the Superhero saga for no apparent reason), he is the leader of the fight against Moro's henchmen , proves to be somewhat strategic by calling the Androids and doing combined attacks, so that 73 cannot do the same and cannot beat them just by absorbing their energy, and when Goku arrives on Earth he apologizes for getting him into his problems again. knowing that Gohan doesn't like fighting
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While that’s true, the skill gap between them (thanks to his litany of abilities), should make that virtually impossible. Also, I’d argue that it still undoes the effort put in to reinstate the martial arts basis of the series.
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Vegeta would send him back to namek levels with FSF
DivineAura44
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1. What implies this large skill gap you speak of?
2. Puncher's chance is a phenomena that states large skill gaps can be overcome by luck. So it being virtually impossible does nothing.
3. No it doesn't. Puncher's chance isn't a big **** off explosion blast. It's a real "phenomena" that happens in real martial arts. And if any less skilled character winning undoes the effort of "reinstating martial arts", this brings a scenario where superior skill wins every time (which straight up makes for boring story ngl.)
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1) The fact that Gohan was "rusty" in the film and manga again despite still having trained, an explicit lack of understanding in fundamental martial arts principles of the Gods (such as Migatte no Goku'i or Wagamama no Goku'i, which are said to be the height of skills within the story, the lack of move variance {Goku has illusions, paralysis, Hakai, can heal himself, teleport, can create his avatar, seal him away, etc.), and the multiple instances of which Gohan goes on stints of lacking training compared to Goku.
2) Yes, but higher an higher levels of skill and knowledge (especially how to counter attacks and defenses), reduce the possibilty of this occurence, and greatly help in preventing it. Furthermore, I bring up "Puncher's Chance" being "virtually impossible" as in, Goku literally is fighting him in the form that makes contact with him due to his evasive capacity nearly impossible.
3) In the context of Dragon Ball, it totally could be a "big **** off energy blast." It's literally happened before (Trunks Vs Imperfect Cell, where Trunks overcomes the skill gap between them with a big ass lateral blast that destroys Cell, or Vegeta using "big **** off blast" in the form of Final Explosion to attempt to defeat Buu or defeating Toppo. And no, skill being brought back doesn't create that issue? The very stories mentioned (ToP, Broly, Moro, Granolah/Gas, and Daima), all insure that power remains integral.
In the ToP, Goku's superior skill only allows him to maintain advantage while Caulifla is learning. Once she catches on, her power starts to overwhelm him, forcing him to transform. You want a Manga Example? Roshi's skill exceeded Jiren, but wasn't enough to do more than a few dodges, and once Goku's did, he only got to beat on Jiren for a few panels before UI went away.
Broly? Goku and Vegeta's skill allows them to keep up with the constantly growing Broly, but it ultimately is necessary to bring out a higher level of power to match him (Fusion and Transformations) to stay in the battle, because no level of skill will stop you from being blitzed and one shot.
Moro? LITERALLY the same thing.
In Granolah and Gas's Saga, the same thing. (Wisher's having to learn their abilities to keep up with Goku and Vegeta's superior skill, Goku's skill allowing him to style on Gas' IT, etc. but still being beat down by the raw power of the Wish and Frieza.)
I'd also much rather have skill be a focus than power in Dragon Ball. It's simply more interesting that way.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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In both media it takes no more than a few days or hours for Gohan to get into shape because Toriyama has no idea how to make any meaningful character arc. Here, Gohan has been trained off screen which might excuse anything because again, Dragon Ball Super is dogshit.
Blue level A17 by punching poachers.
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So are we going to do an update to update Gohan, Piccolo, and Cell, for 6 Universes?
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That's a rude thing to say. Broly's trying his best.Someone said "who invited the SSB level fodder"
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Poachers AND Cell Jrs.
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Watch him be confirmed to be UI levelSomeone said "who invited the SSB level fodder"
y'all will be quiet 
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No one would be upset with UI level BrolyWatch him be confirmed to be UI level
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Good, I hated the entire concept of TUI
SirAlex09
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Why , may I ask? I have an assumption but would like to hear your thoughts
The_Yellow_Topaz
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First off, A17 should be weaker than Cell Jrs, but let's say they only showed up after he punched enough poachers to close the gap (??????? ******* how), and then, by punching these weak ass mf, he got to Blue level. Yeah nah
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The concept of "finding your own version of Ultra Instinct" is so completely and utterly counterintuitive to the entire concept of Ultra Instinct being this completely unique ability that you can only achieve by calming your heart. But no, as it turns out, you can go wild with your emotions with "your own form of Ultra Instinct," totally negating the conditions for using the form to begin with. Even worse is that Goku literally calmed his heart perfectly fine enough to use MUI without issue against Moro after Merus literally died. So why is he suddenly having trouble with that? It's literally creating a problem that never existed and then making up some BS "solution," and I hope this is a sign that Toriyama/Toyotaro realized how badly they screwed up with this "True Ultra Instinct" concept.
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I swear, I've talked about this offsite and people were so unfathomably annoying about it. People were just really mad he was stronger than Jiren. I said something along the lines of "Oh, yeah, his best transformation is stronger than the fusion multiplier" and people were going like "UMM, ACTUALLY, HIS POWER GROWS OVER TIME" as if I didn't know that.
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Link?
SirAlex09
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Yah I hate how they keep disrespecting everything that happened in the previous arcs. I think the problem is the product of trying to create layers to the mastery of MUI. I mean going from totally calm to even calmer is kinda weird.
They perhaps should have expanded the training to other angel techniques. Only two godly techniques, each for Angel and GoD is not a lot. Especially if you have a life span of more than a million
SirAlex09
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Almost as if time passed.
People train on their own and get way stronger all the time. His training can last as long as he wants, he has infinite stamina.
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Probably like the mental training he did in hell which allowed him to perfect his golden form except better because he isn't physically immobile.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Cell Jrs should already be a whole new dimension of strength
That doesn't make any sense, he literally said he didn't do any particular training, he just punched poachers, that's IT. And even if he did some worldly training, that doesn't explain how he got god level strength which was portrayed as absolutely unachieavable to the cast when it was first introduced, but now everyone is as strong as BoG SSG Goku by "training really hard"?
No, stop defending this god awful show, DBS has no self-respect.
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The poachers are like the rocks Goten threw at Gohan.
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It isn't necessarily good now, but it was pretty similar before
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Two wrongs don't make a right, Frieza's training is also just an asspull to make him catch up to the cast, at least bro has implied potential from an alien species, 17 is just a human with super saiyan level tech in him, it makes no sense.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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There isn't a single piece of canon media before DBS that isn't well constructed, tbh.
Any power up in DB and DBZ is well thought-out, and makes sense.
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Human with infinite stamina, though yeah still it's still pretty insane that he managed to get to that level.
SirAlex09
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I really love the way you right. II can't stop laughing for some reason hahahahhahahahahah Any time you write , i can feel the anger through my screen
But hold on: I am looking for scans for the whole A17 thing. There was some statement about his cells being modified and him having the weird generator that gives him infinite stamina.
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