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well then using canon goku...
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They are also using Xeno/CC Goku, but they didn't say that in the previewwell then using canon goku...
they showed movie stuff, as fair as i heard, they are compositing for both charswell then using canon goku...
Are you doing this just because of fear that db would be downgraded from tier 1Guys, would you agree if Zen'ō went back to being 2-C or remains low 1-C?
I saw some things and possibly a demotion of Zen'ō to 2-C, it's about him erasing the timeline and such, for those who want to know
why does mean literally anything?I think Luffy actually makes a compelling argument for Zeno. The universe 9 erasure when Whis is looking into his staff shows the same white starry looking void that we see when Zeno erased Zamasu.
The same space was shown in manga to when a timeline got erased I told this before I am telling it now to they wouldn't show destruction of timeline in manga if they didn't mean it anime cause anime came first before mangaI think Luffy actually makes a compelling argument for Zeno. The universe 9 erasure when Whis is looking into his staff shows the same white starry looking void that we see when Zeno erased Zamasu.
Well someone mentioned something about if the macrocosms were destroyed individually, we’d see neutral space. That is not inherently true, and U9s erasure shows us it’s definitely not true.why does mean literally anything?
That’s not an argument.The same space was shown in manga to when a timeline got erased I told this before I am telling it now to they wont show destruction of timeline in manga if they didn't mean it anime cause anime came first before manga
The big plot points are literally taken from anime zeno destroying trunks timeline is one of the big plot pointsThat’s not an argument.
We know the two mediums aren’t 1:1.The big plot points are literally taken from anime zeno destroying trunks timeline is one of the big plot points
Doesn't change the fact that there measure events are sameWe know the two mediums aren’t 1:1.
the events of the manga and anime diverge way too much from one another to anyone to remotely use one to prove anything for the otherDoesn't change the fact that there measure events are same
The idea of the entire timeline getting destroyed is literally one of the measure plot points of the arc I have literally said it they won't give a proper explanation in manga for destruction of timeline if only u7 got erased in anime there was no need to be extra in manga where there was not even merged zamsu in manga so they could have just shown destruction of u7 in manga tothe events of the manga and anime diverge way too much from one another to anyone to remotely use one to prove anything for the other
this doesn't change what i said at allThe idea of the entire timeline getting destroyed is literally one of the measure plot points of the arc I have literally said it they won't give a proper explanation in manga for destruction of timeline if only u7 got erased in anime there was no need to be extra in manga where there was not even merged zamsu in manga so they could have just shown destruction of u7 in manga to
It's a nostalgia thing at this point. As a child I thought it was peak fiction but then I grew up and realized Dragon Ball has always been mid af. I mean some people underrate it, it DOES have some depth and complexity not everyone notices, but the writing has always been rather lazy and sometimes forced. I don't think it's that good.Bro hates and loves DB at the same time
DB up to the end of Z is really good, anyone who says otherwise is straight up lying.Yeah no, 23rd Budokai to Frieza is the strongest stretch of shounen I've ever read. Most series would be lucky to have something as good as the Cell and Buu Saga.
Dragon Ball has held up extremely well as I grew up and studied literature.
Why in particular? Most of the series is just dumb fun. I'm not saying it's all dumb fun, don't generalize me with that crowd, but it is generally not a story that tries to be complex, and a lot of the character development is rather generic and predictable with the exception of Piccolo.Yeah no, 23rd Budokai to Frieza is the strongest stretch of shounen I've ever read. Most series would be lucky to have something as good as the Cell and Buu Saga.
Dragon Ball has held up extremely well as I grew up and studied literature.
Or maybe their tastes just aren't the same as yours. A lot of people prefer different kinds of stories. Which is why a lot of non Dragon Ball fans will often refer to it as just nothing but hype power-ups and fights with no coherence or consistency. Which is wrong, but, it says a lot about their perspectives and preferences.DB up to the end of Z is really good, anyone who says otherwise is straight up lying.
DBS on the other hand...
Base? Eh, idk. But he'll definitely be WAY stronger.Do you guys think EoZ Base Goku will surpass Moro Arc TUI Goku?
This might be controversial, but I think what is "good" isn't the same as "what I like/enjoy".Or maybe their tastes just aren't the same as yours. A lot of people prefer different kinds of stories.
This right here is something I agree with immensely. There's a reason why there are groups of people who prefer the Z era of Dragon Ball, GT, Super, or anything else in between while simultaneously also having a dislike for certain aspects of the franchise.Or maybe their tastes just aren't the same as yours. A lot of people prefer different kinds of stories. Which is why a lot of non Dragon Ball fans will often refer to it as just nothing but hype power-ups and fights with no coherence or consistency. Which is wrong, but, it says a lot about their perspectives and preferences.
Stating something is dumb fun is not spectacular grounds for establishing an opinion on a series. A simple story isn't a bad story.Why in particular? Most of the series is just dumb fun. I'm not saying it's all dumb fun, don't generalize me with that crowd, but it is generally not a story that tries to be complex, and a lot of the character development is rather generic and predictable with the exception of Piccolo.
Saying the Buu Saga is top quality even by the standards of "most series" I find very disagreeable. Controversial topic but, imo, Buu Saga is probably the weakest Z arc by far, for many reasons. I think the Cell Saga was one of the best though.
I mean it's probably an opinion thing. If you care mostly about action and fun adventures and everything in that category, then sure I can understand that. I'm more of a story guy and I focus on more subtle, complex stories with a lot of depth and detail to both the plot and characters. A story like Arcane.
But as far as shonen anime goes, HXH, to me, is like a better version of what Dragon Ball wanted to be as a franchise.
Also, while I agree with you on how the 23rd Budokai to Frieza Saga is the peak of the series, the Red Ribbon Army Arc was mid af, Tao was the best part by a mile but he got ruined later in the series.
What I Really Wanted to Be Canon
Dragon Ball Kakumei
More than half of buu saga criticism is just thing didn't happen that I wanted to happen which makes it automatically badThis isn’t really a response to you rather I’m just using you as an example.
A lot of the times dragon ball fans claim they want the story of dragon ball to be one way or another, but a lot of the time stuff they ask for is what they already accuse dragon ball of being. Kakumei for example is seen by many to be better than super. Even though it’s literally what they accuse super of being, kakumei literally is just what if Toriyama answered all the fan theories. For example GoD Frieza (makes no sense) Gohan becaming a pride trouper (makes no sense) ssjG Goten and Trunks (makes no sense).
Earlier I saw another commenter state that DBS is just a hypefest which I vehemently disagree with. While I’m not denying that sup has its hype moments. Just like Z or OG-DB or LITERALLY ANY SHONEN EVER!!! It’s not what all hype there’s character moments but most people only ever remember the big hype scenes. We’re all entitled to our own opinions but I think it’s kinda disheartening that some individuals will simplify DBS story as nothing more than hype.
We ironically have a story that’s all fights and just hype and the character is ironically inspired by Son Wukong like Goku it’s called god of highschool and that story isn’t anywhere near as well written as DBS imo.
That’s all I’ll probably go back to being afk now lmao.
Thinking that something is good is inherently your opinion.This might be controversial, but I think what is "good" isn't the same as "what I like/enjoy".
I can say DB is good but also say "I don't like it."
I don’t think that’s entirely true, but for the sake of discussion I’ll assume it is.Thinking that something is good is inherently your opinion.
I didn't say anything like that. I just explained that I prefer more complex stories.Stating something is dumb fun is not spectacular grounds for establishing an opinion on a series. A simple story isn't a bad story.
With character development being predictable thing, just, no. At best its Vegeta, who is still a great character, but everyone else, yeah no, neither predictable nor 'generic'.
Calling Dragon Ball generic is my litmus test for reading comprehension. It popularized nearly all of the biggest anime tropes, so calling it generic when it was one of the first ones to do it is wrong on all kinds of levels.
Buu Saga is the second litmus test, because beyond pacing, the strongest marks against the arc are just 'it didn't happen how I want it to happen therefore bad'. Buu Saga I think is a phenomenal capstone to the series.
For why I think Dragon Ball holds up? Well I could write an essay on that lol. It's got some phenomenal character work, the 23rd Budokai arc is about the most foundationally sound story I've seen in anime/manga, god tier fights obviously, fantastic villains, and while the plot is comparatively simple to other animes, beyond the first half of the cell Saga, the plot is pretty solid.
"and while the plot is comparatively simple to other animes, beyond the first half of the cell Saga, the plot is pretty solid.
Alright let's go through all this bit by bit since there is a lot wrong here.I didn't say anything like that. I just explained that I prefer more complex stories.
Uh, not a whole lot of characters have much development if at all as far as I can remember. The only character who I'd say has really good development is Piccolo tbh. And yeah very generic, but not generic for its time I guess? Examples please.
That much is true. It is basic but it was the first to do what it was best at.
Buu Saga? Let's see. SSJ3 was forced af and served no purpose. Gohan was shafted entirely two times in the arc effectively rendering the point of the Cell Saga moot. The arc felt very drawn out with a lot of unnecessary additions and conflicts to the plot. Well over half of the cast were irrelevant in the arc up until like, literally the ending of the series. I could go on. There isn't a lot of good things about the Buu arc in my opinion but I'd love it if you mentioned some that I might not have seen?
"phenomenal character work"
Vast majority of the characters we are introduced to early in the franchise become non-factors in Z pretty early on and are only really brought up for the sake of nostalgia or to show how Goku has grown or something. Actually this is pretty much a trend. 90% of the characters we are introduced to in the franchise lose their importance depending on how the writers feel, the Saiyan's are the only exceptions. Toriyama introduced Goten and Trunks decades ago and hyped them up massively and they've done virtually nothing besides a decent battle involving Gotenks. Tien was literally the main antagonist of an arc and one of the main characters in OG Dragon Ball. Now he is about as relevant as a microbe. I'll give you a lot of these points but on no planet does Dragon Ball have phenomenal character work. I'm not saying there AREN'T good characters, but there are only a very small few imo.
The 23rd Budokai is one of the best parts of the series, what about it?
"god tier fights" Mm, they're not as good as they used to be by new standards, but they hold up pretty well and WERE god tier for their time, only a good handful of the fights I would really put on that pedestal, like Goku Vs. Cell.
"fantastic villains"
Sure. Though a lot of them are very one-dimensional and there are extremely few villains who have a desire other than "destroy everything" "rule everything" etc. and it gets tiring. I am not saying that makes a villain bad, a villain doesn't have to be relatable or have some kind of particular goal or anything else. Aizen is one of my favorite anime villains ever and he's not exactly complex or deep. Frieza is an amazing villain and there's a REASON why he's iconic. Just saying that it'd be nice if Dragon Ball had more VARIETY instead of like, 99% of the villains just being "I'm gonna kill everyone!!!" over and over again. And if we get into the Super manga...Jesus Christ.
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You see though, the thing I'm saying isn't just about the plot, but that it has very little complexity or emotionally compelling narrative story telling, and that I PREFER series' like that, like Arcane, or Attack on Titan, or the Chimera Ant Arc in HXH, and so on. Dragon Ball has almost none of that to speak of.
What I would say is, for what DRAGON BALL IS, I'd give it a 6-10/10 depending on the arc, but for my OVERALL preferences, Dragon Ball peaks at an 8/10 even at its best, because while it is entertaining, nostalgic, iconic, genre-defining, and has some emotionally compelling moments and characters, it just lacks a certain depth to it that I find more appealing in a story, which is what stops it from ever getting higher than an 8/10 in my book.
Also, might be a hot take, I've always thought Dragon Ball's humor was extremely lacking even though it tries to be funny very often. There are some good jokes here and there but a lot of it is toilet humor, a character falling over because someone did or said something "wacky", or "SEXUAL HARASSMENT XD" which is a trope I despise in anime overall.